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Isn't the point of Delayed Bomb to give more persistent damage and not like bomb traps?
Which wow with the game and players pushing to end fights as fast as possible is that "useful"
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Great analysis! Sure let's you see how non-bomber builds are "supported" but very pathetic. The poison-based stuff is almost insulting.
Isn't the point of Delayed Bomb to give more persistent damage and not like bomb traps?
Which wow with the game and players pushing to end fights as fast as possible is that "useful"
delayed bomb does nothing for persistent damage.
the bomb literally stands there, without exploding, and when it goes off it deals it's normal damage.
I dont understand where you got that it helps with persistent damage.
Well I'm at work so I don't have the PDF.
Mixed it up with another feat I suppose. Repeating Bomb?
Isn't the point of Delayed Bomb to give more persistent damage and not like bomb traps?
Which wow with the game and players pushing to end fights as fast as possible is that "useful"
delayed bomb does nothing for persistent damage.
the bomb literally stands there, without exploding, and when it goes off it deals it's normal damage.
I dont understand where you got that it helps with persistent damage.
Well I'm at work so I don't have the PDF.
Mixed it up with another feat I suppose. Repeating Bomb?
maybe you're talking about sticky bomb.
which deals the splash damage as persistent to the main target. I've rated that with a 3/5, solid damage increase.
That's the one.
Forgive me, tiny screen makes reading large posts a chore, I suppose I missed your rating.
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I'm not even sure the splash is really a good thing. In the playtests it looks as though the alchemists have often splashed the other PCs.
Invincible mutagen gives 3-5 DR at level 12. Unless you're being beaten on by a vast number of mooks, I don't think this is helping much. CR12 monsters are doing about 30 damage on a hit.
I'm not even sure the splash is really a good thing. In the playtests it looks as though the alchemists have often splashed the other PCs.
Precise Bombs means you stop hitting allies.
I'm not even sure the splash is really a good thing. In the playtests it looks as though the alchemists have often splashed the other PCs.Precise Bombs means you stop hitting allies.
At level 6. So for the first two parts of the Doomsday Dawn, you're probably still hitting teammates.
Hmm I should go back and read the level progression of that.
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At level 6.I'm not even sure the splash is really a good thing. In the playtests it looks as though the alchemists have often splashed the other PCs.Precise Bombs means you stop hitting allies.
You, me, OP, and half the playerbase think that Precise Bombs should be a level 1 or 2 feat.
You, me, OP, and half the playerbase think that Precise Bombs should be a level 1 or 2 feat.At level 6.I'm not even sure the splash is really a good thing. In the playtests it looks as though the alchemists have often splashed the other PCs.Precise Bombs means you stop hitting allies.
That just seems fair to me. No other classes have their low-level damage potential centered entirely around the possibility of friendly fire.
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You, me, OP, and half the playerbase think that Precise Bombs should be a level 1 or 2 feat.At level 6.I'm not even sure the splash is really a good thing. In the playtests it looks as though the alchemists have often splashed the other PCs.Precise Bombs means you stop hitting allies.
Now that is something I can agree to regardless of any thing else that happens in the playtest.
Seriously, I got hassled in a Strange Aeons game into taking what was it, Precise Shot or maybe Point Blank by my fellow players and GM. Because numbers man. I wanted to go Extra Discovery Precise Bombs but okay whatever.
And then I got hassled for having to throw my bombs at squares to hit only the enemy with splash damage because all my allies were mostly melee and in tight spaces. Yeah. Thanks guys.
I question how many Alchemists are going to be hassled by the team, and how many are going to stick around for 5 more levels.
At the very least, Alchemists should get a 1st level feat to concentrate all damage on 1 target at the cost of splash damage, and then later they can get a feat that allows the bomb to splash but exclude allies.
That way Alchemists can choose to avoid friendly fire at level 1, and then later they can both avoid friendly fire and still hit multiple foes.
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I really do think they should have Alchemist allowed to throw to induce splash or to avoid splash.
Like some sort of... Targeted Bomb. Maybe a mixture you pour or combine with the bomb's chemicals. An Admixture you might even say.
This is a lot of good points and I find myself sharing many even if I haven't put the same stuff into words.
May I ask, have you seen [url=http://paizo.com/threads/rzs429lo?Alchemist-finding-the-right-mix]my previous alchemist thread[/i] and what would your thoughts be about the feats I placed as examples?
Universal Empowerment should have just been part of Empower Bombs. Cool, I can build these bombs and they're weaker than the ones I can just pull out of my bum for free.
Also why are there so many feats that require you to create a thing using Quick Alchemy?
Also why are there so many feats that require you to create a thing using Quick Alchemy?
Agreed. And unlike all the abilities other classes get that require them to spend Spell Points, those abilities don't grant any extra Resonance to offset the cost.
Why is it not possible to create a smoke bomb during your downtime? Or one that just produces smoke and doesn't deal damage so that we can use it to give our allies concealment instead of the enemy? When the ninja yells, "NINJA VANISH!" and throws the smoke bomb to escape, you don't then hear them go, "AAAAAAAH! I SET MYSELF ON FIRE!" as they're running away. :-P
Also why are there so many feats that require you to create a thing using Quick Alchemy?Agreed. And unlike all the abilities other classes get that require them to spend Spell Points, those abilities don't grant any extra Resonance to offset the cost.
Why is it not possible to create a smoke bomb during your downtime? Or one that just produces smoke and doesn't deal damage so that we can use it to give our allies concealment instead of the enemy? When the ninja yells, "NINJA VANISH!" and throws the smoke bomb to escape, you don't then hear them go, "AAAAAAAH! I SET MYSELF ON FIRE!" as they're running away. :-P
And the level 9 ability that grants half your level to resonance but only for Quick alchemy feels like it comes far too late.
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I wish I had seen this before I answered the surveys on Alchemists. Guess I'll have another gander at it. Doesn't really change my mind about playtest alchemists, it just makes me want to homebrew 1e alchs to have the things I liked from the playtest. While I'm fine with the bomber build (I always go bombs away, bombs are why I picked the class up when I was first introduced to pathfinder), it's such a shame to see my fav class be so... boring. Why do they insist on making every class weaker in 2e? I don't know, I just feel like pathfinder 2 should have been more of a sequel, with all that entails, instead of what we have now. Honestly, Paizo should just put aside the playtest for now and redo the entire thing, that's what I would do if I were them.
While most alchemist feats do seem unexciting or of questionable use, with the new multiclass at least one is better for that.
For instance, a dwarf wizard with a crappy cha could easily pick up the alchemist multiclass for 2 extra resonance [the actual extra resonance feat requires a 12 cha] with the rest a perk. Basic discovery then counts for the 3 feats you need to finish the archetype and you can pick up a alchemical familiar on a class that can actually use it well.
For instance, a dwarf wizard with a crappy cha could easily pick up the alchemist multiclass for 2 extra resonance [the actual extra resonance feat requires a 12 cha] with the rest a perk.
It also stacks with Remarkable Resonance.
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I do have to agree, making an Alchemist for Chapter 3, I wa sunderwhelmed with the class feat choices there were. Bomber was well supported, but a poisoncrafter, or a buffer who went into combat, was not supported well at all. That, tied with resonance being the alchemy pool, hurts the PF2 alchemist in a way that the PF1 Wizard was at low levels - pack a backup weapon, because you’re going to be running out of the thing that makes you special quickly.
I do have to agree, making an Alchemist for Chapter 3, I wa sunderwhelmed with the class feat choices there were. Bomber was well supported, but a poisoncrafter, or a buffer who went into combat, was not supported well at all. That, tied with resonance being the alchemy pool, hurts the PF2 alchemist in a way that the PF1 Wizard was at low levels - pack a backup weapon, because you’re going to be running out of the thing that makes you special quickly.
Yep. I tried playing a 'buffer/healer' and honestly multiclass wizard supports the role better than in class feats.
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Originally, I would've said you were undervaluing Perfect Medicine - it heals 84hp/2RP versus 98hp/3RP for normal true Elixirs of Life, or 42hp/RP compared to 32.67hp/RP. When drunk by allies, anyway. But now that the Infused trait allows allies to drink Elixirs without an RP cost, the only real benefit is that it shifts action cost from the drinker to the Alchemist, which isn't really worth the feat.
With the upcoming changes to the Resonance system the entire class is probably gonna need some rewriting, so hopefully it can get a rebalancing pass too.
Also, comment on Alchemical Item DCs - they're definitely too low, but they also don't suffer from the Conditional Bonus vs Magic that many higher-level monsters have. That means they effectively have a +1DC that casters (except Spell Penetration Wizards) don't. They need a bump, but they do have that one advantage.
That said, I otherwise agree with your assessment on Poison and Elixir builds - Fast Onset shouldn't exist because the onset time is unnecessary, and making poisons actually useful mid-combat is dang near impossible thanks to the 3-action application cost and loss-on-miss mechanics. I do think a lot of their low-level Elixirs are genuinely useful, especially now that they lack an RP cost, but I really want to see more high-level formulas and interesting class feats.
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The problem here is that most of these feats are there not to make you better, but to make your abilities catch up. Several of the class features suffer from the same purpose - you don't push ahead, you merely keep up - and not in the best of ways.
Have a look at Fighter. Lv3? Expert weapon and critspecs. Lv7? Perception and Initiative. Lv11? Better AC. Lv15? Extra feats and flexibility. Lv19? Best attack precision of any class.
Now look at Alchemist. Lv3? You keep up in damage. Lv7? You keep up in damage. Lv11? You keep up in damage. Lv15? You keep up in damage. Lv19? You keep up in damage. This is your main and defining feature, and costs resources to use.
What about the feats? On Fighter, you almost always gain new options, or learn to do something useful, or become able to do more things. On Alchemist, you have feats like "you can avoid attacking your allies" or "on a few things, your DC scales" or "you can now use your class feature X". A few feats are good, interesting options, but most are band-aids.
It's the difference between gaining a Swim speed vs a bonus to not drown. It might be your best choice, but it still doesn't make it good.