What is the purpose of a Angelic Sorcerer?


Classes


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I was a little dismayed that one of my favorite classes, the Oracle was removed from the new Pathfinder.
With the advent of the Angelic bloodline the sorcerer now has the ability to heal though the method of that healing is confusing...
One of the key points of both the Sorcerer and the Oracle was that neither knew from where there powers came from. The Sorcerer knew that somewhere in their ancestry there forefather had intimate relations with something not altogether human; like a angel, demon, air elemental, etc...

With the latest update each of the sorcerer bloodlines are neatly configured with not only where they get their powers but also what type of powers they get.

Again, I am going to harp on the Angelic/Demonic bloodline; they are trained in 'religion' when religion does not seem to be a viable trait for a sorcerer.
At present the only viable way to describe a Angelic bloodline Sorcerer is as a weak (less HP, less armor choices, less weapon choices) with limited spells (no channeling without a feat, no ranged offensive cantrips without using a feat), less capable cleric without a Anathema.


That's pretty much accurate.

Quote:
no channeling without a feat

And with the feat they get to use it once!


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There may be other ways to run this, but I played with a Angelic Sorcerer in part 3, and he held his own quite well in comparison to the clerics.

The Divine Sorcerer ended up with a much larger spell selection than any of the clerics because the clerics often had multiple preparations of the same spell. This was somewhat funny given that there as been so much hate for Sorcerer spell selection versatility.

The Angelic Sorcerer took fighter archetype for armor and weapon proficiency and had Magical Striker and a magical shortbow, so was able to heal and shoot two arrows per round. With 15 spontaneously heightened heal spells available this is a very strong combination.

Other potent spells with this build were heroism for an additional +1 to hit and saves.


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Mako42 wrote:
I was a little dismayed that one of my favorite classes, the Oracle was removed from the new Pathfinder.

To be fair - it wasn't really removed. They added one of the base classes to core rules and I believe they nearly chose Oracle (two if you include Cavalier). I took from that they intend to add the base classes back in in some way (though some might be added as archetypes like Cavalier).


Snickersnax wrote:
There may be other ways to run this, but I played with a Angelic Sorcerer in part 3, and he held his own quite well in comparison to the clerics.

This is good to hear - I had a divine sorcerer in Lost Star and liked the concept but feel it needs a bit of help at lower levels. I'm looking forward to seeing how it goes at level 9.


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I figure it's mostly thematic, like if sorcerers can get powers from some demon or aberration in their bloodline, they should be able to get powers from some angel in their bloodline. But if having Fey blood gives you primal magic, Aberration blood gives you occult magic, Dragon blood gives you arcane magic, then it's not hard to figure out what Angel blood should give you.

If the angelic sorcerer is weak that's more of a testament to the divine spell list being mediocre when separated from the cleric chassis, than the idea being bad.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I figure it's mostly thematic, like if sorcerers can get powers from some demon or aberration in their bloodline, they should be able to get powers from some angel in their bloodline. But if having Fey blood gives you primal magic, Aberration blood gives you occult magic, Dragon blood gives you arcane magic, then it's not hard to figure out what Angel blood should give you.

If the angelic sorcerer is weak that's more of a testament to the divine spell list being mediocre when separated from the cleric chassis, than the idea being bad.

The logic behind what types of powers are not an issue but the skill selection is... Just because my great -> great grandfather mated with a celestial does not make me a instant expert on religion. A sorcerers spells are in the blood, not given by a deity. Religion is the last thing that a sorcerer should be learning, after all they have the power without the devotion, worship and anathema to/from a higher power.

One thing that would be nice is for each sorcerer type to have two magic types, though I am not sure how that could be implemented.
Sorcerers don't need to pray, they do not require religion.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Snickersnax wrote:

There may be other ways to run this, but I played with a Angelic Sorcerer in part 3, and he held his own quite well in comparison to the clerics.

The Divine Sorcerer ended up with a much larger spell selection than any of the clerics because the clerics often had multiple preparations of the same spell. This was somewhat funny given that there as been so much hate for Sorcerer spell selection versatility.

The Angelic Sorcerer took fighter archetype for armor and weapon proficiency and had Magical Striker and a magical shortbow, so was able to heal and shoot two arrows per round. With 15 spontaneously heightened heal spells available this is a very strong combination.

Other potent spells with this build were heroism for an additional +1 to hit and saves.

Wow, I think we played nearly the same character in Part 3. She wound up being really effective for me as well and Jason's Pharasmin cleric definitely didn't overshadow her.


Mark, I think you might get a kick out of my Part 3 character. I'll make sure to link the sheet in my open feedback. I'll even put your name in there too; "Attn: Mark Seifter". ;)

I'd go into why, but I want it to be a surprise.


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I really hope the Divine sorcerer doesn't need a weapon to get by. That's kind of the clerics thing, getting better weapons armor and hit points.

This seems like the right place to have a proper priest/whitemage class that is all about casting. Here's hoping they get some good ways to burn people with holy fire and good defensive casting they can be doing round after round instead of having to fall back on the old crossbow or multiclass into fighter just to keep up.


Wolfism wrote:

I really hope the Divine sorcerer doesn't need a weapon to get by. That's kind of the clerics thing, getting better weapons armor and hit points.

This seems like the right place to have a proper priest/whitemage class that is all about casting. Here's hoping they get some good ways to burn people with holy fire and good defensive casting they can be doing round after round instead of having to fall back on the old crossbow or multiclass into fighter just to keep up.

I don't know, but a whitemage that uses magic to hurt doesn't feel all that whitemagey IMO. More like the weapon thingie is a token contribution to combat but more of an afterthought than a focus...


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That sorcerer is spending feats on fighter dedication to make a competent character. It's great that it's possible to create an effective character but it's not ideal that viable angelic sorcerer builds are tied to multiclassing and that sorcerers have so few class feats to begin with.


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victusfate wrote:
That sorcerer is spending feats on fighter dedication to make a competent character. It's great that it's possible to create an effective character but it's not ideal that viable angelic sorcerer builds are tied to multiclassing and that sorcerers have so few class feats to begin with.

Are they? I had a very competent demonic sorcerer in my part 2 adventure. No multiclassing just sorcerer. That one of the viable options is to multiclass is fine.


victusfate wrote:
That sorcerer is spending feats on fighter dedication to make a competent character. It's great that it's possible to create an effective character but it's not ideal that viable angelic sorcerer builds are tied to multiclassing and that sorcerers have so few class feats to begin with.

Multiclassing is OK, especially since most of the sorcerer feats aren't that great anyway...


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I want to revisit my original question... What is the purpose of Angelic Sorcerer?
Why would a person choose Angelic (or even Demonic) vs all of the other flavors of Sorcerer?
Why would someone who wanted to heal, choose a Angelic Sorcerer over a Cleric?
Why does a Angelic Sorcerer have to be a 'white mage'; just because you can heal does not mean that you automatically give up all potential to do damage.
I can find no viable benefit of a Angelic Sorcerer over a Cleric, and many benefits that the Cleric has over a Sorcerer.
I once played the Frog God Northlands campaign and the Cunning Woman/Green sorcerer bloodline is far superior to the Angelic Sorcerer.
The Cunning Woman/Green bloodline are Sorcerers (with access to Arcane magic) and their bloodline powers are basically Arcane variants of Divine healing spells.
Limiting a Sorcerer to only Divine magic is basically making a Oracle without the curse and many of the benefits.
As a note: I am not interested in what people did to 'tweak' the Angelic Sorcerer to make them viable, but rather the opening of dialogue into determining where the Angelic Sorcerer fits into the game.


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I completely agree with what you have to say mechanically, the sorcerer could use quite the improvement. However the reason I want to play an angelic sorcerer is because I want to be a sorcerer that gains their powers via their connection to angelic blood in one way or another.

I want that class fantasy, which is a distinct fantasy from both the cleric and a potential oracle that may or may not come later. I want to be the princess whose family has fallen from grace but we're once a house of legendary heroes, and when she discovers she has been blessed by her family's bloodline uses it to prove her worth, not just as a member of her family but as an individual. I want to play the peasant girl who was almost not born. But some divinity smiled upon her mother as she was in labor and gave the extra push.

I want to play the anti-hero/anti-villain who despite was given everything, even holy blood still chose the wrong path. Who wields the power of the angels for her own greed and gain.

And that desire for that fantasy might make me pick a sub-optimal choice to fulfill it.

That being said, I don't necessarily want a sub-optimal choice or have to make it work, and would like to see the sorcerer improve some manner, more class feats, or making bloodline more modular like the other sub-classes you pick at first level.


I had an Angelic Sorcerer and a Cleric in Part 3 of the playtest. They did feel a bit different, and the Sorcerer didn't use weapons. It could just come down to how my two players used the same spell list, though.

Spoiler:
The Angelic Sorcerer was a bit more versatile, able to drop Heals or damaging spells when needed. She mostly just spammed a wand of Searing Light to great effect (several crits were had), and dropped a Sanctify early in the night that served as the group's fortified position for the rest of the scenario. The Cleric was more focused on handing out weapon buffs to everyone and shooting his crossbow. He was able to counter the poltergeist with See Invisibility, and dispensed channeled Heals when needed to keep the party topped off.


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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I'm still not sure what you are asking.

From a RP perspective, the Angelic Sorcerer gives a lot of interesting plot hooks (pixierose did a great job listing some)

From a game design point: the designers had a interesting idea as to how to effectively fold four classes into one and wanted to see how it would work. I think in general its working well, individual bloodlines can use some tweaking. And the designers have said there's still the possibility to explore some of the other popular spontaneous casters later, its not like the oracle is gone forever.

From a pure character mechanics point: you want to play a non-prepared divine caster, you pick Angelic/Demonic Sorceror. I don't think someone who wants to play a dedicated healer would take it (it would need to be buffed some for that to be the case.... or cleric nerfed).

For your other related points: I can't tell if you're more focused on why angelic blood implies religion. Or why angelic blood implies divine. (The choice of religion as trained does seem a little heavy handed given the trope of "I don't know where my power comes from", wile the divine seems like a natural fit. I could see 'must choose at least one of arcana/divine/nature/occult' as a skill. To represent a sorcerer who _thinks_ their powers come from a source they don't. Its probably a weak choice, but ....


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So a somewhat related question- how does the Aberrant Sorcerer compare mechanically to the Bard? Since it's pretty clear to me that the Oracle will be back sooner than later (not every class can be core) so at that point the angelic sorcerer will be in a similar position relative to the oracle that the abberant sorcerer is relative to the bard.

From where I sit, the sorcerer seems less appealing to play than a dedicated spontaneous caster for a given spell list, in large part because the sorcerer chassis is not that exciting; you pick an aberrant sorcerer because you want to skip the whole "music and performance" thing, not because the sorcerer feats and powers are especially strong (though the aberrant ones are evocative.)


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A 7th-level Angelic Sorcerer with Heal as a Spontaneously Heightenable Level 1 spell can potentially cast Heal 15 times a day. 19 with a Minor Staff of Healing. That's not too shabby...


Mako42 wrote:

I want to revisit my original question... What is the purpose of Angelic Sorcerer?

Why would a person choose Angelic (or even Demonic) vs all of the other flavors of Sorcerer?
Why would someone who wanted to heal, choose a Angelic Sorcerer over a Cleric?
Why does a Angelic Sorcerer have to be a 'white mage'; just because you can heal does not mean that you automatically give up all potential to do damage.
I can find no viable benefit of a Angelic Sorcerer over a Cleric, and many benefits that the Cleric has over a Sorcerer.
I once played the Frog God Northlands campaign and the Cunning Woman/Green sorcerer bloodline is far superior to the Angelic Sorcerer.
The Cunning Woman/Green bloodline are Sorcerers (with access to Arcane magic) and their bloodline powers are basically Arcane variants of Divine healing spells.
Limiting a Sorcerer to only Divine magic is basically making a Oracle without the curse and many of the benefits.
As a note: I am not interested in what people did to 'tweak' the Angelic Sorcerer to make them viable, but rather the opening of dialogue into determining where the Angelic Sorcerer fits into the game.

I am not entirely sure at what your first question aims, I guess for the divine spell list mostly.

Healing is not necessarily the reason to be a divine sorcerer, that he can do it is nice though. The divine spell list is a bit lackluster (too few spells, too many uncommon or rare) atm but I assume that will change in the final release.

The divine sorcerer can use heal in any of his spell slots with spontaneous heightening. This alone makes him a way more flexible healer than the cleric with of course a tighter selection.
You can counter spell heal! Which makes a divine sorcerer one of the most reliable ways to kill clerics. You can heal/harm + magical striker + move. You can do preemptive healing with blood magic. And then metamagic in general. Spontaneously cast water walking with conceal spell to rally a cult?

I would still like to see the bloodlines diversified with feats instead of powers to chose from, with the powers being a choice.


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vestris wrote:
You can counter spell heal! Which makes a divine sorcerer one of the most reliable ways to kill clerics.

What a horrifying thought. How dare you mention that where GMs can see it and make enemies that use that strategy.


Zorae wrote:
vestris wrote:
You can counter spell heal! Which makes a divine sorcerer one of the most reliable ways to kill clerics.
What a horrifying thought. How dare you mention that where GMs can see it and make enemies that use that strategy.

Just want to help my fellow GMs with their TPK's ;D


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Mako42 wrote:

I want to revisit my original question... What is the purpose of Angelic Sorcerer?

Why would a person choose Angelic (or even Demonic) vs all of the other flavors of Sorcerer?
Why would someone who wanted to heal, choose a Angelic Sorcerer over a Cleric?
Why does a Angelic Sorcerer have to be a 'white mage'; just because you can heal does not mean that you automatically give up all potential to do damage.
I can find no viable benefit of a Angelic Sorcerer over a Cleric, and many benefits that the Cleric has over a Sorcerer.
I once played the Frog God Northlands campaign and the Cunning Woman/Green sorcerer bloodline is far superior to the Angelic Sorcerer.
The Cunning Woman/Green bloodline are Sorcerers (with access to Arcane magic) and their bloodline powers are basically Arcane variants of Divine healing spells.
Limiting a Sorcerer to only Divine magic is basically making a Oracle without the curse and many of the benefits.
As a note: I am not interested in what people did to 'tweak' the Angelic Sorcerer to make them viable, but rather the opening of dialogue into determining where the Angelic Sorcerer fits into the game.

Demonic can make a heck of a gish build, Harm, Disintegrate, Slow the Glutton Jaws etc, ends up brutal.


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Mako42 wrote:
Why would a person choose Angelic (or even Demonic) vs all of the other flavors of Sorcerer?

Because they think it would be fun to roleplay.


Fumarole wrote:
Mako42 wrote:
Why would a person choose Angelic (or even Demonic) vs all of the other flavors of Sorcerer?
Because they think it would be fun to roleplay.

There is a point where even the best RP cannot overcome flaw in game mechanics.

And 'fun' is a relative term since what can be fun for one can be boring or even torturous to the another.
The point of this 'playtest' forum is to record issues with game design and offer solutions.
Sadly the game designers have given us little in the way of comprehending what they feel the purpose of a 'divine' Sorcerer is...
In some ways it seems as if they decided that each spell list (Primal, Divine, Arcane, Occult) should have two different bloodlines with little to no thought on what that bloodline's purpose should be.
Again I bring up the 'Cunning Woman' from Frog God's Northlands campaign as a good example of what a healing Sorcerer should be.
Rather than giving them a complete new spell list with many limitations, the Healing spells are instead are converted to Arcane.
No higher powers, religions or anything else that a sorcerer would shun are forced upon the bloodline.
It goes back to making the Sorcerer someone who "You didn’t choose to become a spellcaster—you were born one."


GreatGraySkwid wrote:
A 7th-level Angelic Sorcerer with Heal as a Spontaneously Heightenable Level 1 spell can potentially cast Heal 15 times a day. 19 with a Minor Staff of Healing. That's not too shabby...

A 7th level cleric with a charisma of 12 can do the same thing (if they spend all their spell slots on Heal just as your sorc just did). Oh and six of them are max spell level (4th) compared to the sorc's 3.

At an 18 cha they can match the sorc with a staff of healing without spending resonance.


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Draco18s wrote:
GreatGraySkwid wrote:
A 7th-level Angelic Sorcerer with Heal as a Spontaneously Heightenable Level 1 spell can potentially cast Heal 15 times a day. 19 with a Minor Staff of Healing. That's not too shabby...

A 7th level cleric with a charisma of 12 can do the same thing (if they spend all their spell slots on Heal just as your sorc just did). Oh and six of them are max spell level (4th) compared to the sorc's 3.

At an 18 cha they can match the sorc with a staff of healing without spending resonance.

Yeah, but then they are sacrificing their ability to do literally anything else with spells. The sorcerer CAN potentially have 15 Heals ready to go, but in practice won't because some amount of their spells will be spent elsewhere. A cleric who dedicates themselves to healing that much ain't doing anything else that day.

Not that Channel isn't bonkers good, but "A cleric can prepare the same spell in every spell slot" isn't a good argument to counter the merits of spontaneous casting.

Quote:
The logic behind what types of powers are not an issue but the skill selection is... Just because my great -> great grandfather mated with a celestial does not make me a instant expert on religion. A sorcerers spells are in the blood, not given by a deity. Religion is the last thing that a sorcerer should be learning, after all they have the power without the devotion, worship and anathema to/from a higher power.

That doesn't really feel like an argument against the angelic bloodline, so much as an argument against sorcerers being trained in any skils automatically in the first place. Why should your great grandfather being a dragon make you scarier or well versed in arcane theory?

Also, angelic sorcerers aren't instant experts in religion-- they are instant trained. That's an important distinction, especially when you look at what Religion lets you do trained vs untrained.

Any old schmuck can already Recall Knowledge about gods and what not. Being trained in Religion specifically allows you to identify divine magic and learn a divine spell, which is rather essential to be being a divine caster. People sometimes think that sorcerers don't understand the magic they cast, but the sorcerer has always explicitly LEARNED their spells and how to magic in general. They just do it more intuitively than a wizard does.

The sorcrerer being trained in Religion does make them 10% better at recalling relevant knowledge, and it does mean that they are inherently gifted at deciphering scripture. But those are fringe benefits to them just being able to understand their own magic and recognize it when other people use it. And frankly, I'd rather not go back to having spontaneous casters that aren't actually competent with magic that doesn't come out of their body, or wizards who are better at understanding divine magic than clerics and what have you.

Edit: And remember, the sorcerer doesn't actually graduate to expert or above in religion unless they devote skill increases to it, just the same as anyone else. I'm sure there are some who won't bother with that. Being trained in Religion is just the basic to key to being competent at Divine Magic.


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Draco18s wrote:
GreatGraySkwid wrote:
A 7th-level Angelic Sorcerer with Heal as a Spontaneously Heightenable Level 1 spell can potentially cast Heal 15 times a day. 19 with a Minor Staff of Healing. That's not too shabby...
A 7th level cleric with a charisma of 12 can do the same thing (if they spend all their spell slots on Heal just as your sorc just did). Oh and six of them are max spell level (4th) compared to the sorc's 3.

IMO, there's a huge difference between "a spontaneous caster using the same spell over and over again" and "a prepared caster preparing only one spell."


PossibleCabbage wrote:
IMO, there's a huge difference between "a spontaneous caster using the same spell over and over again" and "a prepared caster preparing only one spell."

There's also a huge difference between "Cleric can cast max level heal 6 times per day without using spell slots" and a sorcerer.

Any argument that says that a Sorc can push out X number of heals has to keep in mind that the Cleric gets a bunch FOR FREE.


I think the issue could definitely be solved if Angelic Sorcerers got a better level 1 bloodline power. A self only +1 AC is just really pathetic.

If it did some form of unique healing or even just a buff for other members of the party - then they'd at least have something to put them on much more reasonable footing and make them feel much better.


I think the purpose of the Angelic Sorcerer is to have a more defensive version of the Sorcerer. At least, that's what the powers and spells seem to indicate. I look at the Angelic/Demonic Bloodlines as an exercise in two approaches to divine magic. One defensive, one offensive. The only real issue is the Divine Spell list having a general shortcoming on the offensive magic side. Even debuffs are a bit lacking compared to some of the other spell lists.

I too am not really enthused about the Angelic Sorcerer, but I think I get a bit of what its theme is. A shame that it seems to need some expanded equipment options to keep going.


Well I find there to be one flavor advantage of angelic sorcerer over cleric. The angelic sorcerer doesn't have to worship overgrown outsiders that never get off their divine butts except to boss mortals around. Of course, if the Oracle were around, that would probably be the better option, but it isn't. They may also decide to break the Oracle down into sorcerer feats, which would make me deeply sad. I also find them automatically getting religion odd, fwiw.

Mechanically, yeah okay, the only real advantage is not having those pesky anathema.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I wanted to try an angelic sorcerer for the a 1st level playtest game that I'll be participating in on Saturday. While I do like the flavor, I just couldn't make it strong enough. So, I've ended up going with a gnome fey sorcerer who can do some healing but seems to me to be much powerful and useful overall.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Zorae wrote:

I think the issue could definitely be solved if Angelic Sorcerers got a better level 1 bloodline power. A self only +1 AC is just really pathetic.

If it did some form of unique healing or even just a buff for other members of the party - then they'd at least have something to put them on much more reasonable footing and make them feel much better.

When it auto-heightens to 3rd it becomes pretty nice?


GreatGraySkwid wrote:
Zorae wrote:

I think the issue could definitely be solved if Angelic Sorcerers got a better level 1 bloodline power. A self only +1 AC is just really pathetic.

If it did some form of unique healing or even just a buff for other members of the party - then they'd at least have something to put them on much more reasonable footing and make them feel much better.

When it auto-heightens to 3rd it becomes pretty nice?

That's a pretty long time to wait for something "pretty nice" lol. Plus, it's still a 10 ft aura around yourself - meaning you have to be up near combat with your limited armor and health to let the front liners get the benefit.

I just wish it was more helpful at level 1 and didn't encourage a gish playstyle (many of the other bloodlines are much better at it).


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
Wow, I think we played nearly the same character in Part 3. She wound up being really effective for me as well and Jason's Pharasmin cleric definitely didn't overshadow her.

I am a little confused by your assessment here.

1. In a one-off, one-day adventure, spontaneous casters will generally be at an advantage over prepared casters, because prepared casters do not get to demonstrate their ability to prepare different spells each day to suit new knowledge and developments in the adventure. Longer-running campaigns, as well as multi-day adventures such as In Pale Mountain's Shadow and The Mirrored Moon, actually do get to show off a prepared spellcaster's ability to adapt each day.

2. A 7th-level sorcerer has four 1st-level slots, four 2nd-level slots, four 3rd-level slots, and three 4th-level slots. Not bad. That is three maximum-level heal spells per day. But... a 7th-level cleric can very easily afford Wisdom 18 and Charisma 18, giving them three 1st-level slots, three 2nd-level slots, three 3rd-level slots, two 4th-level slots, and seven uses of 4th-level heal per day! That is huge, and I do not see how the sorcerer can compete in terms of raw abundance of resources.

3. A primal sorcerer also has heal on their spell list, and they get a decidedly better spell list out of the deal.


Snickersnax wrote:

There may be other ways to run this, but I played with a Angelic Sorcerer in part 3, and he held his own quite well in comparison to the clerics.

The Divine Sorcerer ended up with a much larger spell selection than any of the clerics because the clerics often had multiple preparations of the same spell. This was somewhat funny given that there as been so much hate for Sorcerer spell selection versatility.

The Angelic Sorcerer took fighter archetype for armor and weapon proficiency and had Magical Striker and a magical shortbow, so was able to heal and shoot two arrows per round. With 15 spontaneously heightened heal spells available this is a very strong combination.

Other potent spells with this build were heroism for an additional +1 to hit and saves.

I have to say that this is one of the best arguments I have seen made. Sorcerer as is can have sheer variety of spells known in the day when compared to prepared spell casters.

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