Within the setting, the ground (and the rest of the plane) were designed, and it is within the realm of possibility that certain deities involved intended for it to hurt anyone foolish enough to fall toward it from any significant height - like hostile architecture.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So if i shove you off the top of the empire state building, the ground isn't my weapon? In all your time of playing, your characters have never tossed someone off a cliff with the intent for the ground to harm them? The ground is absolutely there to impose force. You dont toss someone off a cliff and expect them to hang there for all eternity or fly away (hopefully) you intend for them to fall, down onto the ground taking the corresponding falling damage.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
TL;DR = Damage Reduction does not reduce the damage from falling.
DR is a representation of how much damage mitigation a given character can absorb/ignore from all sources other than the source listed after the slash. For example, DR 5/coldiron ignores 5 damage from all sources except cold iron weapons. Over and over, the following excerpts continually reference weapons, not falling damage; even when referencing Bludgeoning damage, it still refers to a WEAPON, not the ground.
Damage Reduction
Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable.
The numerical part of a creature’s damage reduction (or DR) is the amount of damage the creature ignores from normal attacks. Usually, a certain type of weapon can overcome this reduction (see Overcoming DR). This information is separated from the damage reduction number by a slash. For example, DR 5/magic means that a creature takes 5 less points of damage from all weapons that are not magic. If a dash follows the slash, then the damage reduction is effective against any attack that does not ignore damage reduction.
Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury poison, a monk’s stunning, and injury-based disease. Damage Reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.
Attacks that deal no damage because of the target’s damage reduction do not disrupt spells.
Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even non-magical fire) ignore damage reduction.
Sometimes damage reduction represents instant healing. Sometimes it represents the creature’s tough hide or body. In either case, other characters can see that conventional attacks won’t work.
If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.
Overcoming DR
DR Type Weapon Enhancement
Bonus Equivalent
Cold iron / silver +3
Adamantine* +4
Alignment-based +5* Note that this does not give the ability to ignore hardness, like an actual adamantine weapon does.
Damage Reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment.
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).
Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
FAQ
How does DR (damage reduction) interact with magical effects that deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage?
Although the definition of damage reduction says “The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even non-magical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities,” that’s actually just referring to damage that isn’t specifically called out as being of a particular type, such as fire damage or piercing damage. In other words, DR doesn’t protect against “typeless damage” from magical attacks.
However, if a magical attack specifically mentions that it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, DR affects that damage normally, as if it were from a physical weapon. (Otherwise the magical attack might as well not have a damage type, as it would only interface with B/P/S damage in a very few corner cases, such as whether or not an ooze splits from that attack.)
For example, the ice storm spell deals 3d6 points of bludgeoning damage and 2d6 points of cold damage. If you cast ice storm at a group of zombies, the zombie’s DR 5/slashing protects them against 5 points of the spell’s bludgeoning damage. Their DR doesn’t help them against the spell’s cold damage because DR doesn’t apply to energy attacks.
It does what it says and it says what it does. If Falling Damage was meant to be affected by DR, it would say so somewhere in one of these rules. And just because it doesn't explicitly say that DR does not affect Falling Damage does not necessitate a condition where DR "could" affect Falling Damage, if that makes sense. At that point, you're just making up your own rules based off extrapolation from incomplete data. So no, DR does not affect falling damage.
It is quite obvious that the intent of DR is to affect weapons.
As far as the Ice Storm rule, Cold Resistance is what is required to mitigate the Cold damage from Ice Storm. Ice Storm causes Physical damage as a Magical Attack, and it also causes Magical Cold Energy damage, so DR 5/slashing and Cold Resistance 10 would allow you to ignore 5 points of bludgeoning damage and 10 points of cold damage.
TL;DR = Damage Reduction does not reduce the damage from falling.
Interesting, I would of assumed that any time a creature takes physical damage (IOW hp damage that isn't a type of energy or force effect) that its DR applies. Additionally, looking at spells like Cushioning Bands and Inertial Barrier the logic seems consistent that DR does not apply to something like falling damage. Otherwise these spells would double dip as they both give you DR and cut falling damage in half.
Following that logic, apparently constriction damage is not subject to DR even when it's one creature squeezing another creature.
It also explains why hardness is a thing. I never understood why the distinction was given since hardness = DR/-. but now I see that hardness > DR since it applies to all damage.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would have to double check, but my idea is that constriction would have DR applied, as it is a direct result of an attack. I will have to double check, though.
well, like I said my logic is based on how the spell Cushioning Bands is laid out. However, reading the spell critically it seems to contradict its self.
Invisible bands of force encircle vital areas of the target. The bands resist crushing forces and impacts without interfering with movement. The target gains DR 2/piercing or slashing and takes half damage from constriction, falling, and being buried, as well as from similar crushing effects such as crushing hand. Grapple checks for attacks other than constricting (such as pinning or swallowing whole) are not affected.
Constriction damage is specifically bludgeoning and as per the FAQ above since it deals bludgeoning damage DR applies.
A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage).
Falling damage is untyped as previously discussed. Being Buried is also untyped damage.
Characters take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage per minute while buried. If such a character falls unconscious, he must make a DC 15 Constitution check each minute. If it fails, he takes 1d6 points of lethal damage each minute until freed or dead.
Now, Crushing hand grapples opponents and makes grapple checks to deal damage. It does not have the constrict ability nor does it deal any kind of constriction damage. Meaning while cushioning bands calls out that you take half damage from effects like crushing hand, the effect that crushing hand creates is one that is specifically called out as not being protected against in the next sentence.
So, it seems to double dip on constrict (applying both DR and half damage), prevents half damage on two other effects and then simultaneously works and doesn't work on a specific spell and other effects like it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@Saashaa
Here is your official ruling from dev's. It's laid out quite clearly in the Overcoming DR rules:
"Damage Reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment."
&
"However, if a magical attack specifically mentions that it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, DR affects that damage normally, as if it were from a physical weapon."
It only references weapons, or magic attacks ONLY IF they are explicitly described as causing P/B/S damage.
Inferring that Falling Damage satisfies either one of these conditions is a non-sequitur fallacy in logical reasoning.
The planets (and thus the ground) are quite animated. They move through space; they move internally. They were created by high level casters (deities).
Don't the planets in the Pathfinder Cmpaign Setting orbit the sun due to physical forces, just like the real life ones?
I'd say Golarion is an artifact: Very old, unique (nothing like it for millions of miles around), and if you destroy it, you're bound to invoke the wrath of some deity!
Another thing, if we go by the definition used for Invisibility for an attack, an offensive act by another (...)
It's not just Invisibility's description,there's actually a general rule that invisibility merely restates: "All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone." CRB pg. 208
Ah, it would seem that my thread is continuing to be polluted with more thoughts and opinions.
Hello Mr. Kim Jong Un, I didn't know you played Pathfinder!
@Saashaa
And to be completely fair, these rules are guidelines for how to play. Every group on the planet has their own way of playing, either with strict adherence to the rules, or tons of house rules, or anything in between. If you want DR to affect Falling Damage in your own private game, you can do that and it's perfectly fine.
Just know that it isn't RAW though, and if you go play with any other groups, they might not have this house rule.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
DR is what Superman uses to deflect bullets. Superman get punched out of the sky and crashes through Wayne Enterprieses. In the rubble, he and his clothes are unharmed. Obviously his DR applies, and his clothes were in his possession so they were undamaged as well.
If it’s good enough for Batman V. Superman, the objectively best superhero movie of last decade, it’s good enough for me.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
In the greatest Indiana Jones movie, Kingdom of the Crystal skull, Indy is flung from the explosion of an A-Bomb in the protective lead sheeting of a refrigerator. He is protected by plot DR, and this DR protects him both from the radiation and falling damage in this accurate historical event.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In Fast and Furious (the 7th F&F franchise title), the Rock is blown out of his office with an explosive charge. As we all know, all rocks possesses hardness but no DR. This explains why the Rock breaks his arm upon falling 10 stories into a car. Hardness does not apply to falling damage, but DR does.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
I have yet to use a bad movie to justify the rules.
Bad movies have to rely on plot devices, like falling into water, to hand waive DR. For example, in Fellowship of the Ring, a very bad movie, Gandalf only survives because he fell into water. A better explanation would have been for him to cast Feather Fall, and for the Balrog to simply fly back up, or for either to simply have DR. Most demons do.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
I think you're confusing bad with good. Batman vs. Superman Dawn of Justice (BTMNVSPMNDOJ for short) is a phenomenal movie.
Another example from Lord of the Rings is in Return of the King, when we see Gollum plummet into lava. Lava is more solid than water, yet he splashes into it with ease. Obviously plot DR applied, just as it did earlier in the movie when he fell down the crevasse by Shelob's lair.
As a side note, his fire resistance is not enough to keep up with the 20d6 damage a round he remains submerged in lava, despite possessing a ring of invisibility.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wow... this thread is completed devolved into something completely unrelated. Please take your conversation to another forum. Leave this to discuss to original topic. Thank you.
Regarding the movie examples above, those are plot driven and unrelated to the rules of the game.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, that was a heck of a troll barrage.
DR is what Superman uses to deflect bullets. Superman get punched out of the sky and crashes through Wayne Enterprieses. In the rubble, he and his clothes are unharmed. Obviously his DR applies, and his clothes were in his possession so they were undamaged as well.
If it’s good enough for Batman V. Superman, the objectively best superhero movie of last decade, it’s good enough for me.
Wow, I would have really expected better behaviour from a poster with those credentials. Truly disappointed.
Do we have a flag for "trolling garbage?"
"Breaks other guidelines"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Personally I find it very logical that falling damage is blunt damage and DR is applied accordingly. This fits what I believe the overall logic and intent of the rule system. Therefore this is how I run my games.
However, I'm convinced by the discussions here that by RAW I am incorrect.
It seems like it should be, but it is actually untyped damage, so...
Precisely. However any of us think the logic goes, RAW ia what it is. And as always RAW means as much as the table in question wants it to.
It is very unclear to me if "untyped physical damage" exists. Untyped is just untyped as far as I can see. I would guess that this distinction is central to some of the disagreement here.
Falling damage is untyped.
Falling
Creatures that fall take 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6. Creatures that take lethal damage from a fall land in a prone position.
If a character deliberately jumps instead of merely slipping or falling, the damage is the same but the first 1d6 is nonlethal damage. A DC 15 Acrobatics check allows the character to avoid any damage from the first 10 feet fallen and converts any damage from the second 10 feet to nonlethal damage. Thus, a character who slips from a ledge 30 feet up takes 3d6 damage. If the same character deliberately jumps, he takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and 2d6 points of lethal damage. And if the character leaps down with a successful Acrobatics check, he takes only 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and 1d6 points of lethal damage from the plunge.
Falls onto yielding surfaces (soft ground, mud) also convert the first 1d6 of damage to nonlethal damage. This reduction is cumulative with reduced damage due to deliberate jumps and the Acrobatics skill.
A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall. Casting a spell while falling requires a concentration check with a DC equal to 20 + the spell’s level. Casting teleport or a similar spell while falling does not end your momentum, it just changes your location, meaning that you still take falling damage, even if you arrive atop a solid surface.
Falling into Water: Falls into water are handled somewhat differently. If the water is at least 10 feet deep, the first 20 feet of falling do no damage. The next 20 feet do nonlethal damage (1d3 per 10-foot increment). Beyond that, falling damage is lethal damage (1d6 per additional 10-foot increment).
Characters who deliberately dive into water take no damage on a successful DC 15 Swim check or DC 15 Acrobatics check, so long as the water is at least 10 feet deep for every 30 feet fallen. The DC of the check, however, increases by 5 for every 50 feet of the dive.
Theoretical Trap question regarding DR:
Let's say that the GM designs a trap that makes an attack roll. The trap is a large log with spikes suspended by two pieces of rope on either side, and when the PC steps on a switch plate on the ground, the log is released from the ceiling and swings down to hit everyone in the area.
This spiked log causes 2d6 piercing and 1d6 bludgeoning, and makes an attack roll (because you can duck under or jump over the log as it swings to hit you, or attempt to block it with a shield).
One player dodges the trap, but another player is hit by the trap and gets hit for 8 piercing damage and 3 bludgeoning damage. This particular player has DR5/slashing.
Question: Would DR5/slashing apply to both the piercing damage AND the bludgeoning damage, effectively reducing the piercing damage to 3 damage and the bludgeoning damage to 0 damage? OR, would the DR5/slashing only apply to one of these attacks?
My take: if it is d6 blunt and d6 piercing then DR would apply to each separatly. But, I think this would be better described as 2d6 (blunt and piercing) as one effect.
Theoretical Trap question regarding DR:
Let's say that the GM designs a trap that makes an attack roll. The trap is a large log with spikes suspended by two pieces of rope on either side, and when the PC steps on a switch plate on the ground, the log is released from the ceiling and swings down to hit everyone in the area.
That was in the Predator series, more than once.
This spiked log causes 2d6 piercing and 1d6 bludgeoning, and makes an attack roll (because you can duck under or jump over the log as it swings to hit you, or attempt to block it with a shield).
One player dodges the trap, but another player is hit by the trap and gets hit for 8 piercing damage and 3 bludgeoning damage. This particular player has DR5/slashing.
Question: Would DR5/slashing apply to both the piercing damage AND the bludgeoning damage, effectively reducing the piercing damage to 3 damage and the bludgeoning damage to 0 damage? OR, would the DR5/slashing only apply to one of these attacks?
The morningstar indicates the damage type is "B and P", just like the log above.
Per Damage Type, the following applies:Some weapons deal damage of multiple types. If a weapon causes two types of damage, the type it deals is not half one type and half another; all damage caused is of both types. Therefore, a creature would have to be immune to both types of damage to ignore any of the damage caused by such a weapon.
Since the log damage is not slashing damage, the total is reduced once by DR.
/cevah
Awesome thx :)
Nope, it'd be reduced twice--or, rather, each damage event would apply the appropriate damage reduction separately.
The weapon type section regards weapons that have a damage type column of "X and Y" (example: the mentioned morningstar). A log trap is not a morningstar; it's not even a weapon. It does exactly what it says it does. If the trap had said that it "deals 2d6 points of bludgeoning and piercing damage", that would indicate only one reduction. As it's worded now, though, the trap causes two separate damage events.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It really depends on how it's written. If written as two seperate sources of damage, DR applies twice, otherwise, only once.
ahhh... the game is what it is. Sometimes it's just silly.
I'll drink to that.