I think the multiclass archetype ability requirements are a bit high.

[breithauptclan]

If I wanted to, I could build a Cleric with a WIS of 10. Or a STR based Fighter with a STR of 8 if I choose the proper ancestry.

Granted, neither of these builds would work very well... But that is beside the point.

So why can't I take the Multiclass Archetype feats unless I have a 16 in the relevant ability score?

Why so high? That is a 3 boost character build if I want to take the archetype at 2nd level. Quite often I only have 3 boosts in my primary class's key ability score. So now I have to also put 3 boosts in the ability score of the class that I want to multiclass into? I can't have it be a secondary class with a secondary ability score level?

In the D&D 3.x style multiclassing, there were no requirements at all. You could simply select a new class when levelling up.

I can understand the idea of having a minimum ability score before taking a multiclass archetype. As a character, if you are going to start homeschooling yourself in Fighter or Cleric, you probably will need to have some innate ability.

But I think that 16 is too much.

[PossibleCabbage]

I think it's realistic. Someone is a class because they have received training in that class, even if they didn't really have potential, they still managed to jump through enough hoops to be ordained as a cleric or whatever. But if you already have all your cleric stuff to do every day, you're not really likely to pick up a second vocation unless you have some sort of acumen for it. Like even a dentist who is terrible at dentistry isn't going to become a musician if they are also tone deaf.

A big difference between PF2 multiclassing and PF1 multiclassing is that now one is assumed to keep up their practice to keep their skills sharp for their original class, whereas in PF1 you could just stop being a wizard and never pick up a book again, if you wanted to. So all the various arcane study which goes along with being a wizard is going to occupy some of your time, and you're only going to be pick up a whole different class with the remainder if you're somewhat of a natural at your 2nd gig.

[Voss]

Quote:

I think it's realistic

That seems like a reach. If you want to multiclass, it simply warps the starting numbers in the character creation array, it has little at all to do with any sense of realism. And by 'warp', I mean move what was probably a 14 to a 16 (which matters more for losing out on other stats), unless you're doing something unusual.

But also if you're presenting the argument that you also need to keep up with your original class, that isn't true at all. That just magically happens, regardless. You can be an incompetent buffoon and never study again and keep progressing as a wizard. Your second class just really requires the arbitrary stat number and ticking the trained box in the right skill. It doesn't require acumen, training or study.

[Lord Mhoram]

I think it works well both as a mechanical limiter, and as a story mechanic. If you start in that class you have been doing something like that for a long time. When you multiclass, you are picking it up new, so it sort of makes sense you have to have a great natural aptitude for it (high ability score).

[Tamago]

My issue with the high requirements is that it's difficult to manage if your character comes to the multiclass organically.

That is, I think it's OK as is if you assume that anyone taking these is planning their character progression from the beginning and can look ahead to see what the requirements are and allocate ability boosts at character creation to make sure they qualify.

But if, say, your Rogue has made friends with the party Wizard and after a few levels you want to multiclass... you might be hard pressed to have a 16 in the appropriate stat.

I think that some ability requirement is reasonable, but a 14 (or maybe even a 12, in some cases) would be better for people's flexibility and creativity at the table.

[Captain Morgan]

Tamago wrote:

My issue with the high requirements is that it's difficult to manage if your character comes to the multiclass organically.

That is, I think it's OK as is if you assume that anyone taking these is planning their character progression from the beginning and can look ahead to see what the requirements are and allocate ability boosts at character creation to make sure they qualify.

But if, say, your Rogue has made friends with the party Wizard and after a few levels you want to multiclass... you might be hard pressed to have a 16 in the appropriate stat.

I think that some ability requirement is reasonable, but a 14 (or maybe even a 12, in some cases) would be better for people's flexibility and creativity at the table.

I think there's a pretty narrow range of levels where that is true though, in most cases. With ability boosts being as generous as they are, you've probably got a 16 in any stat you particularly care about by level 10. Unless you really spread those boosts around, which I guess some people will. Still, if you haven't prioritized the stat enough by then, your character doesn't have the aptitude and it would probably be bad decision mechanically anyhow. Even by 5th level there seems to be a decent chance to get your tertiary stats to a 16.

One potential solution is to allow some retraining of ability boosts. Letting your physical training slack while you focus on sharpening your mind and vice versa is perfectly intuitive. You would want to control for people cheating the diminishing returns this way though, so maybe you couldn't retrain a stat is an 18 or higher or some such, or only do it from the last 4x boost set you got.

[Zorae]

I second only needing a 14 to multiclass (12 seems a bit too low).

Simply because sometimes it's difficult to have that 16 before level 5 and it seems unfair to be forced to wait that long before being able to organically multiclass.

Especially since for some of the caster classes, their level 1 class features leave a lot to be desired and level 2 is a great time to pick up a multiclass feature. My gnome Cleric has an 18 Wis and then a 14 in dex, cha, and con - she wouldn't be able to pick up any of the multiclass dedications until level 5. Luckily, Cavalier only needed training in nature and now our pack pony that the party emotionally bonded with gets to be a full blown animal companion and that's super cool.

[Draco18s]

14 to multiclass would've worked better for the character I'm doing for part 3. I originally created the character's stats with 14s in both Str AND Dex, but the requirement for a 16 made me have to shift a point so that it's 16/12...and I can never recover from that using an infinite number of "every 5 levels, 4 boosts" without not-upgrading Strength.

[WatersLethe]

Quick question, when you multiclass, do abilities from those feats key off of the second class's "Class DC"? Is the 16 requirement just a way to bake into the game a protection from dipping into a class you can't use effectively due to low stats? I get the feeling it's not just intended as a barrier.

In any case I would vote for removing the ability requirement altogether, because it's limiting an already limited character build system. My very first character was a gnome sorcerer who wanted to dip fighter but couldn't because of the rule.

[Grave Knight]

I'm confused. Where does it say you need meet an attribute requirement. The only requirement I read is needing to be trained in a specific skill and you can't take a new dedication feat till you've taken two other feats from the archetype, and due to the removal of the Signature Skills mechanic that prerequisite is removed.

EDIT: Ignore this. I rarely looked at Dedication feats and apparently my brain blanked whenever I read the attribute requirement.

[Chess Pwn]

The dedications say so. Fighter is now str or dex 16, rogue is dex 16, wizard int 16 and cleric wis 16

[Grave Knight]

Chess Pwn wrote:

The dedications say so. Fighter is now str or dex 16, rogue is dex 16, wizard int 16 and cleric wis 16

Right. Apparently my brain blanked every time I read it.

EDIT: Okay. So look through it, the prerequisite shouldn't be set up so high. Mostly basing this in the Pirate Dedication feat and the Grey Maiden Dedication feat. Seems like the requirement should be 12 if the Dedication feat is for level 2, while it should be 16 if the feat is level 6 (bet you Pirate and Grey Maiden were made after most of all the other archetypes).

[Gavmania]

The issue I have is that while some classes are SAD and getting 16 in a secondary stat is easy, some are MAD (e.g. Monk, Cleric, Fighter, possibly paladin) and it is more difficult for them to multiclass without weakening the build. Reducing Stat requirements to 14 would make it easier for them, so I would be happier with a 14. I want to see what multiclass versions of these can do, so encouraging them seems like a good idea.

[Cellion]

16 actually makes a lot of sense to me. You have to make a conscious investment in the relevant stat (either through your initial stat distribution or at 5th and 10th level) in order to multiclass, adding a character building tradeoff. I like it a lot, even for classes where its more challenging to make the stat investment.

[David Silver - Ponyfinder]

You're making a 'conscious investment' of a class feat, and you don't get tons of those. It's a distinct and considerable investment, and you'll likely have to sink more of them into the task.

16 feels high.

[Chess Pwn]

Cellion wrote:

16 actually makes a lot of sense to me. You have to make a conscious investment in the relevant stat (either through your initial stat distribution or at 5th and 10th level) in order to multiclass, adding a character building tradeoff. I like it a lot, even for classes where its more challenging to make the stat investment.

My clerics can't qualify for the cleric multi-class off of initial creating. One started with 12 wisdom and the other, a dwarf, with 14. So saying that a non-cleric needs a lot more wisdom than actual clerics to become a cleric as a side job doesn't seem to make sense.

[PossibleCabbage]

One thing to keep in mind is that getting a 14 in anything is not difficult, and that 14 can be a 16 as soon as level 5, and the retraining rules are generous (all it costs is time.)

So we could see organic multiclassing via "I retrained some of my feats during downtime, I was so taken with [whatever]."

[Tamago]

David Silver - Ponyfinder wrote:

You're making a 'conscious investment' of a class feat, and you don't get tons of those. It's a distinct and considerable investment, and you'll likely have to sink more of them into the task.

16 feels high.

Probably at least two or three feats, realistically. In most cases, the first one is primarily just a feat tax to get access to what you're really after.

[Zorae]

They're level 2 feats, it seems unreasonable to tell people that they can't qualify unless they spent all their possible character creation boosts on the stat (unless it matches with their primary class stat). If they didn't, they instead have to wait 3 whole levels and then retrain into the feat anyway. It solely punishes low levels of play.

There is no stat requirement for taking these classes as your main class, so it's weird that there is such a high one for picking them as secondary classes.

If it's really necessary to have that 16, maybe the first dedication could have a 14 stat requirement and the level 4 feats and up could have the 16 stat requirement? So you still need the 16 to do major things with the secondary class, and you're only put out for a single level if you wanted your first two class features to be multiclass features.