
Almarane |

Animal Companions have the minion trait (or was it the bonded trait?), I believe, so you don't need to perform "Handle Animal" on them, just "Command". You can do the same by getting the Bonded Animal feat.
Is is never stated that you don't need to perform "Handle Animal". The Minion trait only says that the creature can only have a maximum of 2 actions and no reaction.
Whereas, on Command Animal, it is stated that you need to use Handle Animal thirst.
So yes, you need to use Handle Animal AND Command Animal (two actions) to give your animal companion two actions.
The Bonded Animal, which is a feat, allows you to bond with a non-animal-companion animal, and gives you a free Command Animal after a successful Handle Animal, givin one action to your bonded animal for one action on your part.

Fuzzypaws |

ChibiNyan wrote:Animal Companions have the minion trait (or was it the bonded trait?), I believe, so you don't need to perform "Handle Animal" on them, just "Command". You can do the same by getting the Bonded Animal feat.Is is never stated that you don't need to perform "Handle Animal". The Minion trait only says that the creature can only have a maximum of 2 actions and no reaction.
Whereas, on Command Animal, it is stated that you need to use Handle Animal thirst.
So yes, you need to use Handle Animal AND Command Animal (two actions) to give your animal companion two actions.
That's clearly contrary to the intent, and would make animal companions utterly worthless.

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I was looking before I posted and found this thread on the same subject. My reading supports Almarane. It is in line with them trying to even out action economy.
Animal Companions, am I doing this right?
it says that an Animal Companions follows your commands to the best of their ability. I can not find anywhere that you don't have to use the handle animal action before using the command animal action.
The benefit as I see it is because it has the minion trait when you use the command animal action it gets two actions instead of just one.
Has anybody found anything that's in the book that is different from my reading?

Flames of Chaos |
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So in Pathfinder 2, you can only use your animal companion on a turn you want to access their abilities? (action 1, handle animal, action 2 command animal, action 3 animal companion gets their 2 actions)
This completely breaks the spirit of what they're trying to do - why else would "work together" abilities be present if you can't do anything youself on a turn you want to use the animal companion to do something in combat?!

Blueskier |
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So in Pathfinder 2, you can only use your animal companion on a turn you want to access their abilities? (action 1, handle animal, action 2 command animal, action 3 animal companion gets their 2 actions)
Nono, the worst possible reading still gets you to spend 2 actions (one to Handle, one to Command) to get two animal actions in return.

N N 959 |
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Do you have to use the Handle Animal first to then Command your animal companion. I'm assuming that you don't, but I can't find it anywhere
thanks!
No.
The relevant part of the Animal Companion rules state this right at the beginning,
Animal companions are loyal comrades who follow your orders. They have the minion trait, so they gain 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command them; this is in place of the usual effects of Command an Animal.
Emphasis mine.
What are the usual effects?
You issue an order to an animal that’s obeying
Concentrate you, either because you previously used Handle an Animal successfully (see below) or you have the Ride feat (see page 170). Most animals know the Leap, Seek, Stand, Stride, and Strike basic actions. If an animal knows an activity, such as a horse’s Gallop, you can command the animal to perform the activity, but you must spend as many Command an Animal actions as the activity’s number of actions. The animal uses the action you command.
This means that for Animal Companions, you use one Command an Animal to get them to use their 2 normal actions.
If the animal was not a Companion, every round, you'd have to use Handle Animal and then one Command an Animal action for every action you wanted the animal to take.

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Ok, for regular run of the mill Animals you tamed, bought, hired, threatened, or charmed into working with you you need to do the following
Succeed a Handle Animal Skill Check -1 Action
Use the Command Animal Action -1 Action
Whatever else you want to do -1 Action
Which results in the Animal you are commanding getting exactly 1 Action of your choice
If you have an Animal Companion it looks like this:
Use the Command Animal Action -1 Action
Whatever else you want to do -2 Actions
Which results in your Companion getting 2 Actions of your choice WHEN YOU COMMAND THEM, not before, not after, not in the middle of your 2 Actions, but precisely when you use your Command Action.
Alternately, you can use the 1 Action "Work Together" Ability and then still get 2 more Actions of your own which benefit from the "Work Together" bonus, provided that your Companion is in range to help.

Blueskier |

Blueskier wrote:Do you have to use the Handle Animal first to then Command your animal companion. I'm assuming that you don't, but I can't find it anywhere
thanks!
No.
The relevant part of the Animal Companion rules state this right at the beginning,
p.284 wrote:Animal companions are loyal comrades who follow your orders. They have the minion trait, so they gain 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command them; this is in place of the usual effects of Command an Animal.Emphasis mine.
What are the usual effects?
Command Animal p.153 wrote:This means that for Animal Companions, you use one Command an Animal to get them to use their 2 normal actions.You issue an order to an animal that’s obeying
Concentrate you, either because you previously used Handle an Animal successfully (see below) or you have the Ride feat (see page 170). Most animals know the Leap, Seek, Stand, Stride, and Strike basic actions. If an animal knows an activity, such as a horse’s Gallop, you can command the animal to perform the activity, but you must spend as many Command an Animal actions as the activity’s number of actions. The animal uses the action you command.
I had read that, but my perhaps too legalistic interpretation was that Handle Animal was a requirement for Command, not an effect, so it was not replaced by that wording.
Rereading the action now, my interpretation just doesn't make senseThanks!

N N 959 |
I also think Handle Animal is a requirement for Command Animal. The normal "usual effect" is the 1 action, replaced by 2 actions. It never states you don't need to Handle your animal companion.
Handle Animal isn't a requirement for Command an Animal. Handle Animal is a requirement for Command an Animal to work on an animal that is not a Companion.
The Companion rules state specifically how it works for a Companion:
Animal companions are loyal comrades who follow your orders. They have the minion trait, so they gain 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command them; this is in place of the usual effects of Command an Animal.
Emphasis mine.
This is straight forward and without ambiguity. There is no text anywhere in the book that says Handle Animal is required for an "Animal Companion."

Andy Brown |
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Almarane wrote:I also think Handle Animal is a requirement for Command Animal. The normal "usual effect" is the 1 action, replaced by 2 actions. It never states you don't need to Handle your animal companion.Handle Animal isn't a requirement for Command an Animal. Handle Animal is a requirement for Command an Animal to work on an animal that is not a Companion.
The Companion rules state specifically how it works for a Companion:
Quote:Animal companions are loyal comrades who follow your orders. They have the minion trait, so they gain 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command them; this is in place of the usual effects of Command an Animal.Emphasis mine.
This is straight forward and without ambiguity. There is no text anywhere in the book that says Handle Animal is required for an "Animal Companion."
However, Command an Animal starts with this:
You issue an order to an animal that’s obeying you, either because you previously used Handle an Animal successfully (see below) or you have the Ride feat (see page 170).
Neither Animal Companion or Minion rules explicitly override this

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I'd really like to get some new RAW regarding how non-companion animals (Ones purchased with coin) behave when not being actively commanded. My PT game currently has a "power user" trying to justify traveling with a dozen Guard Dogs (Total cost 24 Silver Pieces) and taking 3 actions per Dog every turn without giving up actions to Command them because he took Train Animal and Ride. The guy seems to think that he can just make up whatever rules he likes for how Tricks work and abuse Pack Attack to effectively triple the Party Level at low level.
What do the Guard, Attack, Seek, and Follow Tricks actually DO, and do the Trick commands last longer than 1 round of combat?

Blueskier |

However, Command an Animal starts with this:
Quote:You issue an order to an animal that’s obeying you, either because you previously used Handle an Animal successfully (see below) or you have the Ride feat (see page 170).Neither Animal Companion or Minion rules explicitly override this
But that is precisely what Command replaces. All of that is the usual effects of Command an animal

Almarane |

The effect that's replaced is "you can command the animal to perform the activity, but you must spend as many Command an Animal actions as the activity’s number of actions. The animal uses the action you command."
Not "You issue an order to an animal that’s obeying you, either because you previously used Handle an Animal successfully (see below) or you have the Ride feat (see page 170)."
But you think this overides the first sentence too. Let's agree on the fact that both readings are equally probable, and that we will never agree on which one is the correct one.
Solution : Devs, please create a "Command a Minion" action to remove this ambiguity.
If you read the mounted combat rules on page 314, the "Command a Minion" action is mentioned. I don't know if this is a typo or the remainings of an actual action named this way. If it is the latter, I don't understand why they removed it and prefered writing this ambiguous rule.

N N 959 |
The effect that's replaced is "you can command the animal to perform the activity, but you must spend as many Command an Animal actions as the activity’s number of actions. The animal uses the action you command."
No, the rules don't say that, that's a supposition on your part.
But you think this overides the first sentence too. Let's agree on the fact that both readings are equally probable, and that we will never agree on which one is the correct one.
Incorrect. Your interpretation of the rules leads to a nonsensical outcome. It would mean that a Ranger commanding an animal to to move and attack or to move and attack twice, would get only one action per round. That would be nonsensical.
Solution : Devs, please create a "Command a Minion" action to remove this ambiguity.
There is no ambiguity. The Animal Companion rules tell us, specifically how it works: You Command an Animal and the animal gets two actions. That's it. Straight forward, simple. If it's confusing, it's because we don't get the Animal Companion rules until the end of the book and that introduces doubt as to which rules apply.

Andy Brown |
There is no ambiguity. The Animal Companion rules tell us, specifically how it works: You Command an Animal and the animal gets two actions. That's it. Straight forward, simple.
And Command an Animal says you must first use Handle Animal or Ride.
I agree that your interpretation is more likely to be correct - one PC action to get 2 AC actions (I'll leave out my views on whether that's a good rule), but it's not what the rules actually say. A bit like the Shield Block rules, RAW need to be fixed.

N N 959 |
And Command an Animal says you must first use Handle Animal or Ride.
No, that's not what the rules for an Animal Companion say. Almarane is subjectively reducing what "usual effects" refers to. Regardless, the Animal Companion rules are complete with regards to Animal Companions. Non-companions use a different set of rules.
Perhaps a better way to say this is that Handle Animal is necessary for a non-companion. It's not necessary for a Companion. The rules for Command tell us that non-companion must be prepped. The Companion rules say that you only need to use Command.
- one PC action to get 2 AC actions (I'll leave out my views on whether that's a good rule), but it's not what the rules actually say.
That's not what they say?
They have the minion trait, so they gain 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command them; this is in place of the usual effects of Command an Animal
That's exactly what the rules say.
It's not complicated.

Almarane |

If I'm "subjectively reducing what usual effects refers to", you may be "subjectively increasing what usual effects refers to". Even though I prefer your version more than mine, it doesn't seem strange to me that you would need 2 actions to give 2 actions to your Animal Compagnon : one of their design goal is clearly to reduce the OPness of companions and invoked creatures. You now have to Concentrate for Summon Monster/Nature's Ally, minions only get 2 actions and no reaction against the 3 actions and 1 reaction the PCs get, and you have to spend at least one action to make any animal follow orders (not only companions). They clearly want to reduce the amount of time it takes to play a character with a minion, and their damage outputs.
Before anybody says "you only need one action for Summon Monster so you should only need one action for Animal Companions" : summoned creatures disappear after one minute or as soon as you don't spend a Concentrate on a Spell action. Plus, they cost you a spell. On the other hand, the Animal Companion is "free" (costing you only one feat, against the 2+ feats the wizard looses for being able to cast spells) and permanent (until he is killed, but even so it stays alive more than 1 minute). So of course I'd expect summoned creatures to be a bit easier to use. Plus, summoned creatures don't get the "minion" trait, just the "summoned" trait.
Plus, you can't say "there's no ambiguity" when half of the people on this thread say the contrary of what you are saying. If there was "no ambiguity", we would all say the same thing. But we're not. So there is ambiguity. You even say yourself that Animal Companion rules introduce doubt. You won't Smite the ambiguity out of this rule simply by repeating "there's no ambiguity".
All this confusion comes from the fact that we use Command an Animal to do two completely different things. That's why I asked them to create the Command a Minion action.
Anyway. As I suspected, we are now going in circle. So I'll recap the two arguments here :
Since the Animal Companion rules state that they replace the usual effects of Command an Animal, you don't have to Handle an Animal first.
Handle an Animal or the Ride feat is a requirement to be able to use Command an Animal.
We won't know who is right until the devs finally step in.

Cory Szabo |
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I am just going to throw my two cents in. This is my opinion as a wargamer and playing a great many different roleplay systems. But, I am by no means any form of expert. But have a great understanding of the term "rules as written."
Being as I have been playing around with a ranger and a fighter with a mount. I love the ideas of Animal companions. Or a knight on his horse. The only roleplay game that has handled it well really at all, is Iron Kingdoms. Even then, it isn't that great.
First, we will go over the rules, starting with what provides us with the animal companions.
You gain the service of a young animal companion that travels with you and obeys simple commands to the best of its abilities. See Animal Companions on page 284.
Now looking on the rules given by Animal Companion...
Animal companions are loyal comrades who follow your orders. They have the minion trait, so they gain 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command them; this is in place of the usual effects of Command an Animal. (Etc.)....
Take this from someone who sucks at English himself, but spends a lot of time messing with rules and the grammar of rules. By the way these are stated, I read that you need to use a single Command an Animal action to give your Animal Companion 2 actions. So far, we have 1 action for 2.
However now we will have to take a peek at the Minion Trait and the Command and Animal rule, in order to delve deeper.
A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn and can't use reactions. A minion acts on your turn in combat when you spend an action to issue it verbal commands (this action has the concentrate trait). If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm. If left unattended for at least 1 minute, mindless minions don't act, whereas intelligent ones act as they please.
You issue an order to an animal that's obeying you, either because you previously used Handle Animal successfully (see below) or you have the Ride feat (see page 170). Most animals know the Leap, Seek, Stand, Stride, and Strike basic actions. If an animal knows an activity, such as a horse's Gallop, you command the animal to preform the activity, but you must spend as many Command an Animal actions as the activity's number of actions. The animal uses the action you command.
Most animals understand only the simplest instructions, you might be able to instruct your animal to move to a certain square but not dictate a specific path to get there, or command it to attack a certain creature but not to make its attack nonlethal. The GM decides the specifics of the action your animal uses.
First looking at the Minion trait, we see the mention of using 2 actions if given a verbal command. Which basically re-iterates what the book was stating in the Animal Companion area. No change there.
However, looking at Command an Animal. It states you must have the Ride Feat, or successfully completed a Handle An Animal action prior to this.
- 1st Issue: Up until now, if a action required something... there was a Requirements tab at the top and/or trigger effect. Already it is missing the ground rules set forth in the beginning of the game. This needs to be fixed.
- 2nd Issue: The standard Command an Animal requires you to spend a command an animal action, for every action you want your animal to do. I.E. if you want your Wolf to Stride and Strike... you must spend 2 actions of Command an Animal, to get it to move and attack. Want an eagle to use Flyby Attack? You have to spend two actions to Command an Animal twice, to get it to do so. However, as stated in Animal Companion (or Minion trait) it stats using 1 Command An Animal (verbal command) action gives your animal 2 actions. So, it only takes one Command An Animal to tell your Companion to do his thing, he will (because of training or your kinship) be able to use his actions to do as commanded, two of them. Rather than needing your constant commands.
- 3rd Issue: You need to use Handle Animal or have the Ride Feat before you can use this. This is Not Covered by animal companion. I am not a english person, as you can probably tell already. But as a wargamer. No. Animal Companion, rules as written, does not stop the need for Handle An Animal before doing Command An Animal. Animal Companion just reduces the amount of Command An Animal actions you need to make to get the companion to do anything.
- 4th Issue: There is no Handle Animal action that exists in the book. Can't find it. But I did find a Handle an Animal Action. I an't dumb, I know what this rule is intended for. But in a game designed to appease people who love things complicated and rules upon rules. Also as a wargamer, you need to define the rules better. Or you're going to constantly get arguements and debates and confussion. Simple mistakes, can lead to big problems. But, this isn't the biggest issue.
Looking into Handle Animal.
You prepare a helpful animal to accept your commands. If you are trained in Nature, you can use Handle an Animal on a friendly or indifferent animal as well.
Success Until the end of your turn, you can use the Command the Animal action to direct the animal. You can mount the animal (see pabe 309).
Oh look it states it there as well, you need to succeed on... something, to command your animal.
- 1st Issue: IT doesn't tell you... what you need to Succeed on. It is implied that you need to make a Nature check. It also doesn't give a DC or state that the GM needs to make the DC. Like so many other actions. Either this was missed, rushed, or just lazy writing. The wargamer in me says this needs love.
- 2nd Issue: The Command the Animal action doesn't exist anywhere in the book. I found the Command an Animal action. Like before, this is nit picking. Read before...
- 3rd Issue: If you have a devoted Animal Companion whos been trained and even has proficiencies and such. Why does it need to be "prepared," to take a command? Animals are smarter then that, for sure. A well trained canine can understand something is coming from a simple whistle or even a raising of a hand. A full ACTION to prepare an animal to do something. To me. Is over kill, and horribly not necessary.
My overall feelings about this?:
Rules as written (even poorly written), you must spend 1 ACTION to prepare your companion to recieve orders. Because, for some reason your Animal Companion is a daft unintellegent thing that needs to be Prepared, instead of training and animal instincts keeping it on edge in the adrenline rush that is combat.
Then spend 1 ACTION to Command it to do the Actions it needs to do. I really am okay with this, one Action out of three to to get the Animal to do something? Cool.
However if the ability have the CONCENTRATE TRAIT. Why do I have to do it every turn? I command my animal companion to "Attack him" as I point at the evil orc. My, we will say wolf, is going to rush forward and attack and until I order it to stop. That wolf is attacking, as with most trained police/military dogs. If the orc runs, the wolf is going to follow. So it needs me to constantly tell it what to do for actions like that? Now I understand something like a horse, you sorta have to constantly tell it to change directions, keep on the path, stop, go, gallop and more even with super well trained ones. As much as I hate complication this needs a look into or perhaps do the biggest roleplay game band-aid, "GM descretion."
This being said, action economy wise. Your Ranger (we will go with this class) will be spending TWO of its three actions. To get its animal Companion to do TWO actions. Totaling about 4 actions. However, this means your Ranger is having issues with either... moving or attacking. It locks the ranger into using a Bow. As a two-weapon fighting ranger... is never going to be able to do anything. A crossbow ranger, will spend one action shooting, and then the next turn reloading. And the poor ranger will have to decide if he needs to move or attack.
Making the only useful pet in most cases beint the Bear or Bird, which allows the ranger, whos already been made lame by this action economy, do more damage... however the animal has to use one of its actions to even DO THIS.
The worse part is if the ranger has to do something and doesn't command the pet. It sits there with a Dunce Cap on its head. Doing literally... nothing. And if left alone for a minute. Goes and does what ever the animal does. This doesn't at all sit with a trained animal companion.
Druids can't even cast spells and use their animals.
The only use the animal companion is, is to Paladins and Fighters. Who only need to spend 1 action, to ge the mount to do what it needs to do. Leaving them with 2 actions to do their will, if they have the Ride Feat...
All in all. Animal Companions are a failure. They need a re-work in Action Economy. The other rules are great, having an animal companion that levels and changes as the campaign progresses is amazing. Also having a Horse that can live and be a "Companion" of a Knight is great... rather then a Knight having to buy a new Warhorse everytime a wizard drops a fireball.
To answer the question: Rules as written. Yes, you must preform the HANDLE AN ANIMAL action and succeed on the roll. If successful, you then must perform the COMMAND AN ANIMAL action to allow your animal companion to take its 2 actions. The Ride feat lets you bypass the HANDLE AN ANIMAL action, only in the case of you riding a mount.

N N 959 |
If I'm "subjectively reducing what usual effects refers to", you may be "subjectively increasing what usual effects refers to".
Based on how the rules are written, I'm guessing the "usual effects" are the 1 for 1 exchange. So what that is saying is that Comman an Animal for a companion gives you 1 for 2, not 1 for 1.
The reason you don't need Handle Animal for a Companion is because that's stated in black and white.
Specific trumps general
The specific rules for Animal Companions trumps the general rules for HA and CA.
Even though I prefer your version more than mine, it doesn't seem strange to me that you would need 2 actions to give 2 actions to your Animal Compagnon : one of their design goal is clearly to reduce the OPness of companions and invoked creatures.
And taking one of your actions for 2 actions of a minion is reducing the the player specific actions by 1/3. The player gets 4 actions instead of 6. Design goal achieved.
Plus, you can't say "there's no ambiguity" when half of the people on this thread say the contrary of what you are saying.
Confusion is not the same as ambiguity. I am confused by many aspects of set theory. That does not make it ambiguous.
If there was "no ambiguity", we would all say the same thing.
False.
All this confusion comes from the fact that we use Command an Animal to do two completely different things. That's why I asked them to create the Command a Minion action.
If it's confusing then they should clarify it. That does not make it ambiguous.

Isaac Zephyr |

I am confused... I cannot find anywhere what an animal companion or familiar doesn't require the use of Handle an Animal. I started my search in the Druid entry because there is one on my table.
He was under the impression he didn't need to Handle Animal, so I was curious where he got it from. However, he also believed that he needed to use one Command action per action of his companion to a maximum of 2.
So as far as I can tell, double wrong, but ended up with the same number of actions (he was always double commanding) so no harm no foul, just misunderstanding.
Reading through all this though wasn't helpful. :/
The Pathfinder Playtest is very deliberate in all its wording. It's what makes the book so dry to read. So where specifically is it said that companions do not require Handle Animal? Can it be quoted?
As a GM I'm labeling the check Trivial, so even if the action needs to be taken, I'm not gonna make him roll. And it says that animals still defend themselves even when not commanded, so the GM taking basic actions with the companion (something I do in 5e as well) means they aren't bricks when not commanded.

LordVanya |
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Having played Pathfinder for a few years now, I find it confusing that some of your are choosing to chop up the Command an Animal text and state for no reason that the usual effect that is being replaced is anything other than the entire thing.
Every time in 1e that something states that something replaces the usual effects of something without specifically calling out a specific portion of it, it has always applied to the entire thing.
This is the usual effect of Command an Animal:
You issue an order to an animal that's obeying you, either because you previously used Handle Animal successfully (see below) or you have the Ride feat (see page 170). Most animals know the Leap, Seek, Stand, Stride, and Strike basic actions. If an animal knows an activity, such as a horse's Gallop, you command the animal to preform the activity, but you must spend as many Command an Animal actions as the activity's number of actions. The animal uses the action you command.
Most animals understand only the simplest instructions, you might be able to instruct your animal to move to a certain square but not dictate a specific path to get there, or command it to attack a certain creature but not to make its attack nonlethal. The GM decides the specifics of the action your animal uses.
The animal companion description is very clear and unambiguous. The usual effect is replaced. period.
Command an Animal does not have Handle an Animal listed outside the effect text as a prerequisite.
So then why assume that it does not apply to the entire effect?
How many 1e archetypes use the "replaces the normal effects of" text?
How many of them only partially replaces the effects of something without specifically calling it out?
Why then all of a sudden treat 2e Playtest like it was a completely new game designed by different people?

Isaac Zephyr |

Having played Pathfinder for a few years now, I find it confusing that some of your are choosing to chop up the Command an Animal text and state for no reason that the usual effect that is being replaced is anything other than the entire thing...
Why then all of a sudden treat 2e Playtest like it was a completely new game designed by different people?
Because this is a completely new game, with completely new rules.
As said, I looked through everything. The Druid's Animal Companion doesn't say anything about replacing anything, the actual blurb about the minion trait in Animal Companion is as follows:
They have the minion trait, so they gain 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command them; this is in place of the usual effects of Command an Animal.
And the minion trait has:
A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn and can’t use reactions. A minion acts on your turn in combat when you spend an action to issue it verbal commands (this action has the concentrate trait). If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm. If left unattended for at least 1 minute, mindless minions don’t act, whereas intelligent ones act as they please.
And for having all the ducks, Command an Animal has:
You issue an order to an animal that’s obeying you, either because you previously used Handle an Animal successfully (see below) or you have the Ride feat (see page 170). Most animals know the Leap, Seek, Stand, Stride, and Strike basic actions. If an animal knows an activity, such as a horse’s Gallop, you can command the animal to perform the activity, but you must spend as many Command an Animal actions as the activity’s number of actions. The animal uses the action you command.
It's also semi-important to know Handle an Animal only lasts a turn. Since minions have an "unattended" state after a minute, that means even animal companions have an uncommandable mode they can drop into. Handle an Animal (or the Ride feat) takes a creature out of the uncommandable mode, though only for one turn. That commandable mode is a requisite to use Command an Animal, wyich is required for Animal Companions.
Familiars don't seem to have that requisite, since they don't call out using Command an Animal?

Nettah |
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I'm almost 100% that RAI you are not supposed to use "Handle an Animal" before "Command Animal" with your animal companion. But lets argue RAW.
I do think they should have written: "You issue an order to an animal that’s obeying you, either because you previously used Handle an Animal successfully (see below) ,you have the Ride feat (see page 170) or it's your animal companion (see page 284).
This would eliminate all confusion.
But reading Handle an Animal:
You prepare a helpful animal to accept your
commands. If you are trained in Nature, you can
use Handle an Animal on a friendly or indifferent animal as well.
Success Until the end of your turn, you can use the Command
the Animal action to direct the animal. You can Mount the
animal (see page 309).
The first sentence to describe your animal companion from page 284 is:
Animal companions are loyal comrades who follow your
orders.
Not "sometimes" follow your orders, or a helpful animals etc.
To conclude, yes it could be written better. But with adhering to context and the rule that specific rules overrides general rules, it would seem to me that in RAW you don't need to "handle an animal" your animal companion.
And if this is not RAI how stupid would it be that a guy with "Ride" feat is in better command of every single random mount he meets than a druid or ranger is with their loyal companion.

Isaac Zephyr |
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Helpful is directly in reference to how diplomacy works. The stages being:
Helpful - Friendly - Indifferent - Unfriendly - Hostile
Allies are generally considered Helpful, this would be the stage animal companions occupy. I wouldn't imagine many other animals would have the intelligence or bond to be higher than Friendly. Unless they were a plot device anyway, a dog trying to get you to come help its master stuck in a well or something.

Nettah |
Helpful is directly in reference to how diplomacy works. The stages being:
Helpful - Friendly - Indifferent - Unfriendly - Hostile
Allies are generally considered Helpful, this would be the stage animal companions occupy. I wouldn't imagine many other animals would have the intelligence or bond to be higher than Friendly. Unless they were a plot device anyway, a dog trying to get you to come help its master stuck in a well or something.
I know it's part of diplomacy levels, but show me where it tells you allies and especially animal companions are considered Helpful in RAW and you might have a point. They are loyal and listen to your commands is all that is stated RAW as far as i can see.
You gain the service of a young animal companion. This companion travels
with you on your adventures, and it obeys any simple commands you give
it to the best of its abilities. See the Animal Companion section on page 284 for more
information about these creatures
Why not reference to the nature skill if that was how it worked?
I still see nothing in RAW that actually says you have to handle an animal first directly in regards to an animal companion. At best it doesn't state either or; and in that case all you can really do is read the context and go for what makes sense.
Isaac Zephyr |
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I know it's part of diplomacy levels, but show me where it tells you allies and especially animal companions are considered Helpful in RAW and you might have a point. They are loyal and listen to your commands is all that is stated RAW as far as i can see.
From the druid animal companion class feat page 82 said wrote:You gain the service of a young animal companion. This companion travels
with you on your adventures, and it obeys any simple commands you give
it to the best of its abilities. See the Animal Companion section on page 284 for more
information about these creaturesWhy not reference to the nature skill if that was how it worked?
I still see nothing in RAW that actually says you have to handle an animal first directly in regards to an animal companion. At best it doesn't state either or; and in that case all you can really do is read the context and go for what makes sense.
But it technically does. Going to page 284 for more information gives you:
Animal companions are loyal comrades who follow your orders. They have the minion trait, so they gain 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command them; this is in place of the usual effects of Command an Animal. If your companion dies, you can spend a week of downtime to replace it at no cost. You can have only a single animal companion.
Which directly references Command an Animal, which is the Nature skill. While roundabout, it is pointing you to the Nature skill.
The only even mildy able to be perceived part is going out of your way to make the phrase "they gain 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command them; this is in place of the usual effects of Command an Animal." It requires though that you assume the last part means replacing the whole action. The effect of an action is not the whole thing though, it is the end results, that being instead of one action per command action you use one action to get 2 (the maximum for a minion) actions. The requisite of using Handle Animal or Ride first, is not part of the effect, it is part of the requisite to use the ability. Like how Sneak Attack requires Flat-footed creatures.
If an ability said "If your foe is of the Goblinoid subtype, you gain +2d8 extra precision damage when you Sneak Attack that foe; this is in place of the usual effects of Sneak Attack." you wouldn't assume that meant they wouldn't still need to be flat-footed as Sneak Attack normally requires.

LordVanya |

Because this is a completely new game, with completely new rules.
According to who? Last time I checked the books say Pathfinder on them and it is the second edition of the original rule set, not the first edition of Trailsearcher.
As said, I looked through everything. The Druid's Animal Companion doesn't say anything about replacing anything, the actual blurb about the minion trait in Animal Companion is as follows:
They have the minion trait, so they gain 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command them; this is in place of the usual effects of Command an Animal.
Emphasis mine. To the best of my knowledge "in place of" and "replace" mean the same thing.
And again "...in place of the usual effects of Command an Animal."
What is the usual effect of Command an Animal?
First let's look at how an effect is defined in the actual rulebook on page 8:
FEAT OR ACTION NAME
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Traits] Prerequisites Any minimum ability score, feats,
proficiency rank, or other prerequisites you must have before you
can access this element is listed here. The element’s level is always
an additional prerequisite.
Frequency This is the limit on how many times you can use an
ability within a certain length of time.
Cost Any extra cost of materials to use the ability (for instance, in
spells that require special reagents) is listed here.
Trigger Reactions and free actions both have triggers that must
be met in order to use them. The trigger is listed here.
Requirements Sometimes you must have a certain item or be in a
certain circumstance to use an ability. If so, it’s listed in this section.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
This section describes the effects or benefits of a rules element.
If the rule is an action, activity, reaction, or free action, it explains
what the effect is or what you must roll to determine the effect.
If it’s a feat that modifies an existing action or grants a constant
effect, the benefit is explained here.
Special Any special qualities of the rule are explained in
this section. Usually the special section appears in a feat you can
select more than once, and explains what happens when you do.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
As we can see the text between Requirements and Special is the effect.
Let's look again at the formatted text for Command an Animal.COMMAND AN ANIMAL
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Auditory] You issue an order to an animal that’s obeying
[Concentrate] you, either because you previously used Handle
an Animal successfully (see below) or you have the Ride feat
(see page 170). Most animals know the Leap, Seek, Stand, Stride,
and Strike basic actions. If an animal knows an activity, such
as a horse’s Gallop, you can command the animal to perform
the activity, but you must spend as many Command an Animal
actions as the activity’s number of actions. The animal uses the
action you command.
Most animals understand only the simplest instructions,
so you might be able to instruct your animal to move to a
certain square but not dictate a specific path to get there, or
command it to attack a certain creature but not to make its
attack nonlethal. The GM decides the specifics of the action
your animal uses.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, according to the formatting rules, the entire text of the Command an Animal action is the effect because it does not have any of the other labeled sections before or after the text.
Therefore, when the Animal Companion rules state that Command an Animal grants the AC 2 actions "in place of the usual EFFECT, it includes replacing the conditions of having used Handle Animal beforehand or having the Ride feat.
DerNils |
The skill use chapter for Command an Animal is formatted sloppily, as you Show. To put a requirement in the effects section is bad formatting.
"because you previously used Handle
an Animal successfully (see below) or you have the Ride feat
(see page 170)." is clearly a requirement, not an effect.
So put me down for clarifying the formatting and including either Animal Companion or Minion directly in the requirement to make this 100% clear.

pres man |

Let's get RAW.
====================================================
HANDLE AN ANIMAL
You prepare a helpful animal to accept your commands. If you are trained in Nature, you can use Handle an Animal on a friendly or indifferent animal as well.
Success Until the end of your turn, you can use the Command the Animal action to direct the animal. You can Mount the animal (see page 309).
====================================================
Issue 1: It is weird to have a "success" here when there is no discussion of what is suppose to being done. I guess you could argue that if you were trying to handle an animal that wasn't helpful, in the case of being untrained, or not at least indifferent in the case of being trained, that it has a failure condition.
Issue 2: There is no "Command the Animal", so the limit "Until the end of your turn" would appear to be only relevant for Mount.
====================================================
COMMAND AN ANIMAL
You issue an order to an animal that’s obeying you, either because you previously used Handle an Animal successfully (see below) or you have the Ride feat (see page 170). Most animals know the Leap, Seek, Stand, Stride, and Strike basic actions. If an animal knows an activity, such as a horse’s Gallop, you can command the animal to perform the activity, but you must spend as many Command an Animal actions as the activity’s number of actions. The animal uses the action you command.
Most animals understand only the simplest instructions, so you might be able to instruct your animal to move to a certain square but not dictate a specific path to get there, or command it to attack a certain creature but not to make its attack nonlethal. The GM decides the specifics of the action your animal uses.
====================================================
This the "Command An Animal", so the limit in the Handle An Animal action is irrelevant. This action only requires that at some point prior to using this action that you had used the Handle An Animal action (or have the Ride feat).
So at worst, you would have to use Handle An Animal at the beginning of an encounter and then could use Command An Animal without having to use HaA again.
====================================================
ANIMAL COMPANIONS
Animal companions are loyal comrades who follow your orders. They have the minion trait, so they gain 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command them; this is in place of the usual effects of Command an Animal.
====================================================
Now, I think they should just delete everything here after "... They have the minion trait[.]" That would make it crystal clear, but they haven't yet. So it looks like we are stuck still using the CaA action, but with a 2-for-1 trade off instead of a 1-for-1.
This is how I see it working.
Round 1: Prime the Pump
Action 1 - Handle an Animal
Action 2 - Command an Animal (2-for-1) or
Action 3 (and maybe 2) - character's own action(s)
Round 2
Action 1 - Command an Animal (2-for-1)
Actions 2 and 3 - Character's own actions
While this does burn an extra action during the first round to use HaA, it seems the most RAW interpretation to me.

Data Lore |
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If you have the Ride general feat (see page 170), you can use the Command an Animal action without having to Handle an Animal first (or Command a Minion if the mount is a minion).
That is from page 315 (mounted crap). It suggests a Command a Minion action exists but I can't find it.
Command a Minion is also noted in text for Duplicate Foe (page 220).
This looks like some foul up with editing or something.

beowulf99 |

As with anything made by man, I would say we can all agree that the playtest rules have their fair share of issues with formatting, typos, and intentions being clearly presented. However I would like to dip my 2 cents into this ongoing debate.
In "Playing The Game", "Special Battles" under "Mounted Combat" the following paragraph can be found:
When you are mounted during an encounter, a mount you
control acts on your initiative. You must use the Handle
an Animal and the Command an Animal actions (see
page 153) to get your mount to spend its actions. If you
don’t, the animal wastes its actions. If you have the Ride
general feat (see page 170), you can use the Command an
Animal action without having to Handle an Animal first
(or Command a Minion if the mount is a minion).
Emphasis on the last line in parenthesis. That line clearly establishes the "Intent" of the use of an animal companion as a Mount. In point of fact it would seem strange for a Druid or Ranger with an Animal Companion to not have to take the Feat Ride to gain the same benefits as a standard mounted character on a coin purchased horse, wouldn't it?
This intent bleeds over to the use of an Animal Companion as a rule. Obviously if you need to use Handle an Animal to control your Minion Mount, you would need to use Handle an Animal to control that same creature when you dismount.
I agree that the rules for Animal Companions are poorly implemented, and in my opinion Minion should just straight over rule the standard animal trait and preclude the use of Handle an Animal altogether. However Rules as Worded, I have to err on the side of using Handle an Animal to then Command your Animal Companion. As lame as that may be.
Additionally, the idea of Ride being applicable to non-mounted situations is stretching for a Loophole if I've ever seen it. It doesn't matter that an animal CAN be mounted. A Mount is a creature that has a rider Mounted on it. Without a Rider a Mount is just a creature. A Mount in English is very specifically a means of conveyance (i.e. a Saddle Horse), however the moment you take conveyance out of the equation (as one of my players tried to argue for his bear companion) it no longer can be currently considered a Mount. It is then a creature.

LordVanya |

Then you have erred.
As I pointed out above, the formatting rules defined what part of a description is the effect.
The Command an Animal effect is the entire description for it except for the traits.
This...
"You issue an order to an animal that’s obeying you, either because you previously used Handle an Animal successfully (see below) or you have the Ride feat (see page 170). Most animals know the Leap, Seek, Stand, Stride, and Strike basic actions. If an animal knows an activity, such
as a horse’s Gallop, you can command the animal to perform the activity, but you must spend as many Command an Animal actions as the activity’s number of actions. The animal uses the action you command. Most animals understand only the simplest instructions, so you might be able to instruct your animal to move to a certain square but not dictate a specific path to get there, or command it to attack a certain creature but not to make its attack nonlethal. The GM decides the specifics of the action your animal uses."
...is replaced by the bolded part of this:
"Animal companions are loyal comrades who follow your orders. They have the minion trait, so they gain 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command them; this is in place of the usual effects of Command an Animal."
The mounted combat rules by RAW are stating that while you are mounted you have to have the Ride feat to bypass Handle an Animal before using Command an Animal or Command a Minion.
It has no bearing on the use of Command an Animal on an Animal Companion outside of mounted combat.
If anything, the implication here is that they were originally going to have a separate action for Minions that was ultimately cut (likely for space).
This clearly states that if you want your Animal Companion to function as a mount in combat you have to go the extra mile and take the Ride feat.
And that makes sense.
Your Animal Companion might be smarter than the average bear, but you and your loyal partner need to learn how to fight effectively in a totally different way than normal in this case.
That should require extra training.

beowulf99 |

So what you are saying is that their intent was to make an Animal Companion, like say a Steed Righteous Ally, that you intend to use as a Mount worse than a standard Animal Companion because... reasons?
Obviously we are dealing with a formatting issue which was already pointed out earlier in the thread. Yes, you are correct that technically the entire Command An Animal rule is written in the "effect" section. But obviously there is a requirement in play, "either because you previously used Handle an Animal successfully (see below) or you have the Ride feat (see page 170)." which I agree, should be put in it's own "requirement" section. This is after all a playtest, so errors are bound to happen.
However, to imply that an OBVIOUS requirement is an "effect" of an ability is simply reaching for a loophole which should not exist. Using Handle an Animal is a Requirement of Command an Animal, not an effect.
At least that is my interpretation. It would be nice if the Dev team would swoop in and settle this dispute once and for all. I had my whole Mirrored Moon session ruined due to the party refusing to let go of the Animal Companion debate. I even ruled in favor of using 1 action, as I see it as a more fair way of doing business, hoping it would get the session moving. Unfortunately the inner rules lawyers in all of us took over and we spent an hour and a half bickering over it like children. Finally I put my foot down and we continued to the end, but the debate still didn't end. The cold hard fact is that the Rules as Worded do not represent the Rules as Intended, at least not sufficiently for there to be no argument. Until they address the situation, I've forbidden non-mount only (read Steed Ally) Animal Companions, which makes it hard to test Rangers and Druids.

beowulf99 |

Another issue that I have with the rules Animal Companion rules as they are: It makes Steed Ally and any Animal Companion intended to be a Mount worse than a gold bought horse.
Let's say you buy a horse and took ride. You decide you want to go galloping around. You can use all 3 of your actions to command that horse to move you at it's speed, 2 actions to gallop if it happens to know it.
Now let's say you are a Paladin with the Steed Ally who wants to follow along with the rest of their party on their horses. You have Ride so you use command an animal. Now all of a sudden you are moving with 2 actions of movement vs. your parties 3 actions. so instead of 120 or 140 feet in a turn, you get to move 80 or 100. That's a 1/3rd drop in rate of movement. Sure, you get your other 2 actions to use to do other things, but if you just need to move, your out of luck.
Why would a specialized animal companion be WORSE than a run of the mill gold bought horse at the ONE thing that horses are good for?
And no, you cannot spend another action on Command an Animal because (in your example anyway) you replace the effect of Command an Animal, so they cannot benefit from standard Command an Animal.
And any Paladin or Cavalier trying to use their Steed to speed them up while still using their work together action for their lances, tough luck. you are stuck with 1 movement action, the other being Work Together for the charge.
That just doesn't seem like the intent.

LordVanya |

No I'm saying their intent is likely that any animal that is used as a steed, regardless of it being an Animal Companion, requires more training to be an effective mount. And that is supported by Animal Companions starting out as young creatures.
The formatting issue is not obvious if their intent is for a non-mount Animal Companion to be better than a normal animal. And the Steed Righteous Ally would also function better when not mounted just like any other Animal Companion. Otherwise, the only benefit you get from an animal companion is a single extra action and your bond to that creature is basically meaningless thematically. Further, due to the mounted combat rules using the Command a Minion language and the Command an Animal language being sloppily presented throughout the book, I would say that the mounted combat rules were written earlier and may not be taking into account how Animal Companion rules for Command an Animal work.
I'm not implying that the requirement is an effect, by RAW it factually is.
If your interpretation has lead to removing normal Animal Companions entirely, then that is of lessened benefit to the intent of playtest itself and I would recommend you just follow the RAW until there is a ruling on RAI.
If I were going to house rule it, I'd actually cut the Handle an Animal requirement from the mounted combat rules for Animal Companions, too.