Hello, can you please tell me, officially as the creators of the game, if the Magus' Spellstrike in Pathfinder 2e causes attacks of opportunity if the spell that was cast has somatic components?
Thank you very much.
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RAW yes it causes AoO
You're unlikely to get any kind of "official" response on the forums.
This should go to the Rules forum.
BTW creators of the game usually do not posts much in the boards, especially for Rules points.
You will however likely get answers from knowledgeable other posters who will point you to the relevant rules.
Ah I see...
Well, knowledgeable responses are welcome, even if they are not official, I guess
You can either stick with RAW or homebrew your own spellstrike version.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Under the subordinate action rules, yes, it looks like it does RAW. Was that intended, or slipped by, since Spellstrike doesn't exactly spell it out, no one knows.
It has been one of the most commonly asked questions since the release, we have yet to get an answer.
Personally I really hope we get an answer, or even a fix, sooner rather than later, since it makes Magus borderline unusuable in campaigns with a lot of enemies with AoO.
At a minimum, cantrips shouldn't trigger AoO, since using those with spellstrikes is Magus basic damage enhancer. Should note that fighters still do more damage even on spellstrike rounds when using cantrips, so taking that away is... problematic.
But since we don't have any official position. Yes Spellstrike could trigger AoO. But in general mostly opponents don't have AoO to exploit this soo frequently. But if you don't want to risk use ranged weapons and keep out the distance!
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PF1 spellstrike caused AoOs offset by a concentration check that has been removed. I would think PF2 spellstrike causing AoOs. But AoOs are rare now and only disrupt on a critical hit.
Yeah, spellstrike provoking isn't that much of an issue.
Just have to strategize with your team, stay close of the paladin or shield wielding fighter so he can react to cover for you and prevent a potential crit etc.
From what I am currently finding in the rules spell strike shouldn't innately activate an AoO. It is set off by using a spell with a somatic component as part of a spell strike that would activate the AoO. Is that correct? (granted that is most spells) I'm not seeing anywhere else that casting a spell = AoO.
If that is the case you should also be able to use a pre-applied 'striker's scroll' to avoid an AoO with your spell strike shouldn't you?
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Darksyde wrote: From what I am currently finding in the rules spell strike shouldn't innately activate an AoO. It is set off by using a spell with a somatic component as part of a spell strike that would activate the AoO. Is that correct? (granted that is most spells) I'm not seeing anywhere else that casting a spell = AoO.
If that is the case you should also be able to use a pre-applied 'striker's scroll' to avoid an AoO with your spell strike shouldn't you?
Correct. But I think literally every spell in the game you can use with spellstric has somatic components lol. (Maybe there is some edge case one where there isn't but...)
As for the scrolls, it still uses the Cast a Spell action for that spell, so I believe the same components (verbal, somatic etc) are still used, so it would trigger it. The one exception is that scrolls don't need a material component, presumably being used when the scroll was made.
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Yes and No. Spellstrike does not in itself provoke an AoO, BUT all spells that I have seen so far that qualify for Spellstrike have somatic components which does provoke.
Kelseus wrote: Yes and No. Spellstrike does not in itself provoke an AoO, BUT all spells that I have seen so far that qualify for Spellstrike have somatic components which does provoke. Gotcha! Thanks!
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The existence of this feat supports the supposition that AoOs are expected since most spellcasting by a Magus will be used during Spellstrike.
Reach (which Twisting Tree and Inexorible Iron can access easily), or using a ranged weapon (which Starlit Span) can use all help deal with the issue.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
cavernshark wrote: The existence of this feat supports the supposition that AoOs are expected since most spellcasting by a Magus will be used during Spellstrike.
Reach (which Twisting Tree and Inexorible Iron can access easily), or using a ranged weapon (which Starlit Span) can use all help deal with the issue.
That feat is available for I think every caster in the game, just like familiars. Magus getting it doesn't mean anything. Particularly as people often forget Magus doesn't have to spellstrike to cast. Most of the time it is kind of a waste spellstriking with a spell, doesn't do that much more damage than a cantrip when you could be casting something powerful or defensive.
And reach is helpful, this is true. But the latter half of the game? Seems like everything you fight has reach, so that won't help you with AoO.
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It does help that AoO isn't something everyone gets to do, and you can usually predict if a monster has it just by looking at them (if they are some kind of soldier or well trained martial type, they might have it. Otherwise, probably not).
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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Tender Tendrils wrote: It does help that AoO isn't something everyone gets to do, and you can usually predict if a monster has it just by looking at them (if they are some kind of soldier or well trained martial type, they might have it. Otherwise, probably not). Or later on they are just a big monster that has it for reasons, sigh.
Darksyde wrote: Kelseus wrote: Yes and No. Spellstrike does not in itself provoke an AoO, BUT all spells that I have seen so far that qualify for Spellstrike have somatic components which does provoke. Gotcha! Thanks! There are ways of not using somatic components eg Blood Component Substitution But that's not really practical. Is there another way to do that.
Try a reach weapon.
There are some spells that cause enemies to loose their reactions.
Sometimes there are opponents that neutralise your primary class benefit, so have a plan B. I mean there are quite a few that are immune to precision damage for example. In the end 90% of monsters don't have Attack of Opportunity.
Have another, preferably beefy, PC trigger the AoOs first.
Alternately, have a Champion nearby.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Gortle wrote:
Sometimes there are opponents that neutralise your primary class benefit, so have a plan B. I mean there are quite a few that are immune to precision damage for example. In the end 90% of monsters don't have Attack of Opportunity.
I think Exocist ran the numbers, and it is something like 25% of enemies have AoO at lvl 11 plus. That is a rather lot. Plus, remember that a spellstriking magus using cantrips is actually doing less damage than a fighter and far more fragile. So, odd to think that would trigger AoO.
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CaffeinatedNinja wrote: Gortle wrote:
Sometimes there are opponents that neutralise your primary class benefit, so have a plan B. I mean there are quite a few that are immune to precision damage for example. In the end 90% of monsters don't have Attack of Opportunity.
I think Exocist ran the numbers, and it is something like 25% of enemies have AoO at lvl 11 plus. That is a rather lot. Plus, remember that a spellstriking magus using cantrips is actually doing less damage than a fighter and far more fragile. So, odd to think that would trigger AoO. A magus, depends the cantrip, may avoid resistances and trigger vulnerabilities.
It will also delete enemies on a critical hit.
Anyway, rather than comparing the magus with a fighter, compare it to a champion or monk.
The fighter is not able to:
- Teleport
- Cast stoneskin on himself ( tanking the whole bossfight )
- Get true strikes for free
- Get utility spells
and son on.
It's just "obvious" that a fighter would be better at fighting than a hybrid combatant spellcaster, which sometimes, at some point of the game, may receive an AoO, which will critically hit ( disrupting spellstrike ).
You said yourself 25% past lvl 11.
Let's see then:
1) For the second half ( though they are more within the lvl 15-20 range rather than lvl 11-20 ), the magus is going to be fine.
2) Past lvl 11, 1 enemy out of 4 is going to have AoO.
2a) Among those enemies, some will use it on the magus ( other will use it on different characters )
2b) Among those who'll use it on the magus, 20/25% will have a chance to critically hit the magus
extra
2c) Among those who'll get to crit the magus, if the latter has steady spellcasting is going to have 30% chance ( almost 1/3 of the time will trigger ) to avoid being interrupted.
I mean, considering that Any caster suffers from AoO, the magus is not in a bad spot at all.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
I think we are getting far afield from the rules discussion heh. But to answer a couple of your points.
The big thing isn't necessarily losing spells, it is eating a another hit. Magus are squishy for melee. Many big fights the party can manage not to trigger any AoO once they know the enemy has it, but the magus can't avoid doing so unless it wants to be largely useless in the fight. Not every party comp has someone who can disable AoOs.
"I mean, considering that Any caster suffers from AoO, the magus is not in a bad spot at all."
I mean, other casters don't HAVE to go into AoO range to use their spells. (Ranged magus excluded of course)
I think my biggest issue isn't necessarily that slotted spells trigger it. You don't have a ton of those, so maybe you can time them when AoO isn't available.
It is that cantrip spellstrikes do. Cantrip spellstrike are basically the magus every day damage booster. Much like rangers precision edge, fighter +2, barbarian rage, etc. Obviously not quite as good and magus is squishy, but being unable to effectively use that in a lot of fights? Makes magus kind of useless there.
Oh, and with regard to precision immune enemies? I dislike that design too. People talk about fights like those like "just use a skill action etc" but what it really does is make a character largely useless in a fight which is zero fun. Meanwhile fighter just swings away at anything without that issue.
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Magus was exactly the same in 1e, they just had a bonus on Concentration checks to not provoke. It's a misnomer to say they "never" provoked attacks when casting spells. There's absolutely no reason to assume they wouldn't provoke by casting in 2e. Don't like it? Play a Ranged or Reach Magus.
CaffeinatedNinja wrote: Gortle wrote:
Sometimes there are opponents that neutralise your primary class benefit, so have a plan B. I mean there are quite a few that are immune to precision damage for example. In the end 90% of monsters don't have Attack of Opportunity.
I think Exocist ran the numbers, and it is something like 25% of enemies have AoO at lvl 11 plus. That is a rather lot. Plus, remember that a spellstriking magus using cantrips is actually doing less damage than a fighter and far more fragile. So, odd to think that would trigger AoO. Are you sure they do less damage than a fighter? Their action economy booster is combining two attacks into a single attack.
I was using spellstrike with a monster and they were hammering pretty hard and able to move. Do one big spellstrike hit, then move. It was a pretty nasty ability.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Deriven Firelion wrote: CaffeinatedNinja wrote: Gortle wrote:
Sometimes there are opponents that neutralise your primary class benefit, so have a plan B. I mean there are quite a few that are immune to precision damage for example. In the end 90% of monsters don't have Attack of Opportunity.
I think Exocist ran the numbers, and it is something like 25% of enemies have AoO at lvl 11 plus. That is a rather lot. Plus, remember that a spellstriking magus using cantrips is actually doing less damage than a fighter and far more fragile. So, odd to think that would trigger AoO. Are you sure they do less damage than a fighter? Their action economy booster is combining two attacks into a single attack.
I was using spellstrike with a monster and they were hammering pretty hard and able to move. Do one big spellstrike hit, then move. It was a pretty nasty ability. Exocist did the math in one of these posts. Yeah, magus may get the bigger hit, but fighter gets 2, and at +2 to hit. When using cantrips magus is decent DPS but not as good as a fighter.
CaffeinatedNinja wrote: Deriven Firelion wrote: CaffeinatedNinja wrote: Gortle wrote:
Sometimes there are opponents that neutralise your primary class benefit, so have a plan B. I mean there are quite a few that are immune to precision damage for example. In the end 90% of monsters don't have Attack of Opportunity.
I think Exocist ran the numbers, and it is something like 25% of enemies have AoO at lvl 11 plus. That is a rather lot. Plus, remember that a spellstriking magus using cantrips is actually doing less damage than a fighter and far more fragile. So, odd to think that would trigger AoO. Are you sure they do less damage than a fighter? Their action economy booster is combining two attacks into a single attack.
I was using spellstrike with a monster and they were hammering pretty hard and able to move. Do one big spellstrike hit, then move. It was a pretty nasty ability. Exocist did the math in one of these posts. Yeah, magus may get the bigger hit, but fighter gets 2, and at +2 to hit. When using cantrips magus is decent DPS but not as good as a fighter. I was wondering more in actual play than theoretical. I imagine that will take some time as more Magus are made.
A fighter will likely still outdamage a Magus as accuracy is powerful in PF2. But the Magus should be able to exploit weaknesses more often and have more utility than the fighter. Even being able to cast 4th level invis for a few fights is a powerful offensive and defensive capability.
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