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Personally, I don't allow it, especially at high levels. For casters in particular, it basically doubles WBL. My explanation is that to craft an item, you have to spend both time and gold - two resources that aren't free. Whenever you start at a higher level, you can pay the gold but the time has to be handwaived, your character never really pays it. And then you can retrain out of those feats to something more useful, if your GM is super lenient.
I've played a 15th level wizard who started at 13th and got the discount. It was a mess...
I'm not sure if it is a house rule or something from 3.5 we use, but you don't get double WBL when starting a character with Craft. We use 25% or 50% more, I can't remember which.
Wizards at least lose out since they don't have as many spells learned unless they pay for them, which evens out a bit.
I don't worry too much about WBL. Instead I have a house ruled feat chain that makes crafting permanent magic items very expensive in terms of feats and done away with Ye Olde Magick Shoppe. I also have a campaign timeline that doesn't give much opportunity for downtime.
End result, the adventurers use the magic items they find and at hogher levels use their vast wealth to shape the campaign world.
To be clear, I'm not talking about crafting in play (downtime), just at character creation.
Spending the feats on it for no benefit seems wrong. Feats are precious resources, gold less so. Let them have at least one 'signature' item.
How do you handle Arcane Bond? Do people with it not get to upgrade their item?
You absolutely get a benefit. You just have to use it in game. Should the campaign have little to no downtime, I'd just suggest they pick something else.
Depends on the campaign. You can retrain feats. WBL strongly effects power level.
You can totally upgrade your arcane bond. You don't get a discount though.
Bonus: I'd allow a PC to not spend all their WBL and then use that WBL to craft in downtime.
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i tend to go by this, as player in games and GM
http://legacy.aonprd.com/ultimateCampaign/campaignSystems/magicItemCreation .html
Some GMs might be tempted to reduce the amount or value of the treasure you acquire to offset this and keep your overall wealth in line with the Character Wealth by Level table. Unfortunately, that has the net result of negating the main benefit of crafting magic items—in effect negating your choice of a feat. However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn't just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
i tend to go by this, as player in games and GM
http://legacy.aonprd.com/ultimateCampaign/campaignSystems/magicItemCreation .html
Some GMs might be tempted to reduce the amount or value of the treasure you acquire to offset this and keep your overall wealth in line with the Character Wealth by Level table. Unfortunately, that has the net result of negating the main benefit of crafting magic items—in effect negating your choice of a feat. However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn't just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
Yeah, I've worked with those rules and it can really break the already fragile power balance in Pathfinder. I've found crafting and WBL abuse end up a bit like leadership. Even if used with temperance (though optimizers tend to flock to both) it tends to unbalance the game. If you like that kind of thing, go for it. But let all the players do that kind of stuff.
The campaigns I've been a part of have taken an interesting approach to the balance issues of item creation feats at character creation. In our campaigns, you may use no more than 10% of your starting gold on item creation. Anything beyond that must be purchased at full cost. Additionally, time constraints on your allotted crafting time are often applied based on how much downtime the party has actually had up to that point.
It keeps item creation feats from becoming a major problem with character creation, and allows characters who do have them to actually gain some benefit from them at character creation still.
So a wizard, starting at level 15, can't have any scrolls at a discount, despite having it from level 1.
That's your playstyle, but a house rule, and it seems like you weren't really looking for advice.
If you don't have anything helpful to say, might be best to move along partner. ;)
The campaigns I've been a part of have taken an interesting approach to the balance issues of item creation feats at character creation. In our campaigns, you may use no more than 10% of your starting gold on item creation. Anything beyond that must be purchased at full cost. Additionally, time constraints on your allotted crafting time are often applied based on how much downtime the party has actually had up to that point.
It keeps item creation feats from becoming a major problem with character creation, and allows characters who do have them to actually gain some benefit from them at character creation still.
I like this!
None. WBL is what you have at that specific point in time. How you got it is irrelevant. You would not give someone extra stuff for being really good at bluff or sleight of hand just because the player said that he could con or steal extra stuff. So why would you give extra stuff to someone for a different ability to gain a discount?
You would not give someone extra stuff for being really good at bluff or sleight of hand just because the player said that he could con or steal extra stuff.If the PC is actually able to steal said super cool item sure, or swindle their way to it, yeah.
WBL is a guideline, not a hard lock.
In play, sure. Before play begins, not a chance.
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In play, sure. Before play begins, not a chance.You would not give someone extra stuff for being really good at bluff or sleight of hand just because the player said that he could con or steal extra stuff.If the PC is actually able to steal said super cool item sure, or swindle their way to it, yeah.
WBL is a guideline, not a hard lock.
Eh, if a player has this whole cool heist devised and planned as part of their backstory I'd be inclined to let them roll to see what happens.
aka sell me on it, "I have more gold cause I stole it all" isn't gonna cut it.
Came here from a Google search regarding WBL and just wanted to set the record straight for anyone else reading.
OP is blatantly wrong and came here for validation, not advice:
https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9ouz
PCs are not born at level 15. They had to adventure (read: spend time) to get there, which allows crafting beforehand.
Came here from a Google search regarding WBL and just wanted to set the record straight for anyone else reading.
OP is blatantly wrong and came here for validation, not advice:
https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9ouz
PCs are not born at level 15. They had to adventure (read: spend time) to get there, which allows crafting beforehand.
Despite your borderline flaggable tone (seriously, rule zero on the forums is don't be a jerk) you've actually contributed something helpful by linking to a FAQ.
You may want to read the FAQ you linked to before you post all high and mighty, but the general idea the FAQ suggests is that high level PCs be given crafting discounts (how much is specifically called out as up to GM discretion). FAQs aren't the same as printed rules, but I treat them on equal footing.
I'm actually happy to know that I'm wrong on this one, and my ruling is in fact a houserule. One that I continue to stick by.
It doesn't solve the problem of a PC getting up to a 120,000 gp discount in magic items and the retraining the feat for what I believe is either 750 or 3,750 gp...
Yes I've had players try to do that.
So yeah, next time, try doing the being helpful part without the being erroneously accusatory part.
;)
I recall seeing somewhere the suggestion that a PC be able to purchase any items that he can personally craft at 75% of the indicated price if he is beginning play above 1st level. That is supposed to be a good compromise between paying full price (and thus getting no benefit from his selected feats) and paying half price (which could give him too much benefit).
In such cases, players are not allowed to give these discounts to others.
Note that none of this has anything to do with how in-game crafting is handled, as that can potentially give far greater benefits if the party has the time.
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Some GMs might be tempted to reduce the amount or value of the treasure you acquire to offset this and keep your overall wealth in line with the Character Wealth by Level table. Unfortunately, that has the net result of negating the main benefit of crafting magic items—in effect negating your choice of a feat. However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn't just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair , or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
I usually do away with crafting feats saying those are things for N.P.Cs. I do not particurlarly like combination of items that are not conducive to story-telling. No Magick Shoppe until the second part of tier 2.
I let Arcane Bond be, talking to the player so we make meta-game decisions.
When I do allow crafting feats, I use the 25% guideline and let the player know about it but instead of wealth by level, it is the value of the current gear of the character - real estate is not gear^^
This guideline is a meta-game one, I do not try to find ways for it to make sense story-wise.
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Some GMs might be tempted to reduce the amount or value of the treasure you acquire to offset this and keep your overall wealth in line with the Character Wealth by Level table. Unfortunately, that has the net result of negating the main benefit of crafting magic items—in effect negating your choice of a feat. However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn't just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair , or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
In play, sure. Before play begins, not a chance.You would not give someone extra stuff for being really good at bluff or sleight of hand just because the player said that he could con or steal extra stuff.If the PC is actually able to steal said super cool item sure, or swindle their way to it, yeah.
WBL is a guideline, not a hard lock.
Eh, if a player has this whole cool heist devised and planned as part of their backstory I'd be inclined to let them roll to see what happens.
aka sell me on it, "I have more gold cause I stole it all" isn't gonna cut it.
If "I have more gold cause I stole it all" isn't gonna cut it as part of the backstory then why does "I have more gold cause I made it?" It is the exact same thing.
The difference between the two is that there is a mechanical cost to taking crafting feats as opposed to writing something into your backstory.
The difference between the two is that there is a mechanical cost to taking crafting feats as opposed to writing something into your backstory.
I'm afraid that as written, this is correct. But I'm not convinced there is a real mechanical cost. There's no reason by the same rules a PC given time to further use those feats to craft couldn't instead just retrain their feats for a nominal sum and pocket the (considerable) difference.
Of course, this broaches into the territory of deliberately abusing the rules, but assuming the campaign has time for crafting the more powerful option is to keep the feats and essentially double your gold and break WBL. Starving the PCs of treasure to balance things out has proved unpopular and often mechanically difficult in my experience, especially when running an AP with fixed wealth.
I'm skeptical of whether the are many feats that are more powerful than say, 120,000 gp. Obviously at lower levels this is less of a problem- but still potentially unbalancing.
So yeah, my houserule stands, but it is a houserule. I'm glad to know the official ruling, even if I won't use it.
Also, as to not clog up the thread, I'd ask folks not to needlessly reiterate posts that more helpful posters already posted. ;)
At the very least, you would have to begin play with feats that cannot be used while adventuring -- so those feats would provide a real penalty if the player has no idea when he will get sufficient downtime to retrain them away. And the GM is within his rights to assume that a PC has no reason to retrain until he gains at least two levels in play (as he was built with "optimum" choices, makes his first in-play decisions after gaining one level, and then may have reason to reconsider those decisions after one more level).
Anyway, I am pretty sure that the 75% rule for magic item cost pre-dated Ultimate Campaign and thus made no allowance for the possibility of crafting feats being retrained away.
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If you do not care about the crafting discount in the first place, but merely about the possibility of players retraining the crafting feats after getting the discount, then simply do not allow retraining of crafting feats obtained during character creation.
Possible exceptions could be:
1) the player is willing to craft those items during game time: in other words, the character has the crafting feats from character creation, but uses them to craft items during game time, hence paying both the gold and time cost.
2) the player is willing to pay back the discount from which he benefited, and then retrain. This is not and in-game solution, no ghostly accountants will suddenly appear demanding money back, but merely an out-of-game device to balance things out in terms of WBL.
Possible exceptions could be:
1) the player is willing to craft those items during game time: in other words, the character has the crafting feats from character creation, but uses them to craft items during game time, hence paying both the gold and time cost.
I've seen very few tables/GMs that were agreeable when the crafter announced it was going to take him a few weeks to make stuff before the party started on the next leg of their journey.
My more common experience is that Everything had a timer of just a day or two before it absolutely needed the PCs there and taking action.
This makes crafting useful at low level, but leads to the feats being retrained at higher level, since the player will never get any meaningful usage out of a feat that takes longer to use than the time it takes to out level the item being produced.
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My more common experience is that Everything had a timer of just a day or two before it absolutely needed the PCs there and taking action.
This makes crafting useful at low level, but leads to the feats being retrained at higher level, since the player will never get any meaningful usage out of a feat that takes longer to use than the time it takes to out level the item being produced.
That's because your more common experience is about campaigns where the characters level up 10 times over the course of a single month.
My more common experience in instead that of campaigns with both timed events and arcs during which characters have to rush to stop the evil X from doing Y, interleaved with downtime periods of weeks, and sometimes months. Players have therefore to choose if a certain item needs to be crafted while adventuring (2h-worth of crafting per day), bought or if it can wait the next downtime period.
In the case of a campaign where "Everything had a timer of just a day or two before it absolutely needed the PCs there and taking action.", then it's the GM's responsibility to advice the players not to create characters with crafting feats, as there will be no actual time to craft.
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If "I have more gold cause I stole it all" isn't gonna cut it as part of the backstory then why does "I have more gold cause I made it?" It is the exact same thing.In play, sure. Before play begins, not a chance.You would not give someone extra stuff for being really good at bluff or sleight of hand just because the player said that he could con or steal extra stuff.If the PC is actually able to steal said super cool item sure, or swindle their way to it, yeah.
WBL is a guideline, not a hard lock.
Eh, if a player has this whole cool heist devised and planned as part of their backstory I'd be inclined to let them roll to see what happens.
aka sell me on it, "I have more gold cause I stole it all" isn't gonna cut it.
Does the PC have crafting feats that they used to make said gold? Then I have no problem with it.
Does the PC have crafting feats that they used to make said gold? Then I have no problem with it.If "I have more gold cause I stole it all" isn't gonna cut it as part of the backstory then why does "I have more gold cause I made it?" It is the exact same thing.In play, sure. Before play begins, not a chance.You would not give someone extra stuff for being really good at bluff or sleight of hand just because the player said that he could con or steal extra stuff.If the PC is actually able to steal said super cool item sure, or swindle their way to it, yeah.
WBL is a guideline, not a hard lock.
Eh, if a player has this whole cool heist devised and planned as part of their backstory I'd be inclined to let them roll to see what happens.
aka sell me on it, "I have more gold cause I stole it all" isn't gonna cut it.
Then why do you have a problem with a player having the feat Skill Focus (sleight of hand) saying he stole the extra cash?
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Then why do you have a problem with a player having the feat Skill Focus (sleight of hand) saying he stole the extra cash?Does the PC have crafting feats that they used to make said gold? Then I have no problem with it.If "I have more gold cause I stole it all" isn't gonna cut it as part of the backstory then why does "I have more gold cause I made it?" It is the exact same thing.In play, sure. Before play begins, not a chance.You would not give someone extra stuff for being really good at bluff or sleight of hand just because the player said that he could con or steal extra stuff.If the PC is actually able to steal said super cool item sure, or swindle their way to it, yeah.
WBL is a guideline, not a hard lock.
Eh, if a player has this whole cool heist devised and planned as part of their backstory I'd be inclined to let them roll to see what happens.
aka sell me on it, "I have more gold cause I stole it all" isn't gonna cut it.
If you actually read what I wrote you’d see I said I’d have no problem with them rolling beforehand, the same as craft, to get extra gold.
If you actually read what I wrote you’d see I said I’d have no problem with them rolling beforehand, the same as craft, to get extra gold.Then why do you have a problem with a player having the feat Skill Focus (sleight of hand) saying he stole the extra cash?Does the PC have crafting feats that they used to make said gold? Then I have no problem with it.If "I have more gold cause I stole it all" isn't gonna cut it as part of the backstory then why does "I have more gold cause I made it?" It is the exact same thing.In play, sure. Before play begins, not a chance.You would not give someone extra stuff for being really good at bluff or sleight of hand just because the player said that he could con or steal extra stuff.If the PC is actually able to steal said super cool item sure, or swindle their way to it, yeah.
WBL is a guideline, not a hard lock.
Eh, if a player has this whole cool heist devised and planned as part of their backstory I'd be inclined to let them roll to see what happens.
aka sell me on it, "I have more gold cause I stole it all" isn't gonna cut it.
But only one of them is rolling, the other is "I have feat, therefore extra cash."
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But only one of them is rolling, the other is "I have feat, therefore extra cash."If you actually read what I wrote you’d see I said I’d have no problem with them rolling beforehand, the same as craft, to get extra gold.Then why do you have a problem with a player having the feat Skill Focus (sleight of hand) saying he stole the extra cash?Does the PC have crafting feats that they used to make said gold? Then I have no problem with it.If "I have more gold cause I stole it all" isn't gonna cut it as part of the backstory then why does "I have more gold cause I made it?" It is the exact same thing.In play, sure. Before play begins, not a chance.You would not give someone extra stuff for being really good at bluff or sleight of hand just because the player said that he could con or steal extra stuff.If the PC is actually able to steal said super cool item sure, or swindle their way to it, yeah.
WBL is a guideline, not a hard lock.
Eh, if a player has this whole cool heist devised and planned as part of their backstory I'd be inclined to let them roll to see what happens.
aka sell me on it, "I have more gold cause I stole it all" isn't gonna cut it.
Both of them have to roll.
Both of them have to roll.
I'm not sure what roll the crafter is having to make. To clarify Consider the following example:
---------------------------------------------You have 4 PCs that have given you their characters for final review. All of them are 5th level and had 10,500 gp to buy gear.
Player 1 made a wizard with spellcraft is maxed out and the crafting feats craft wondrous item and craft arms and armor. They have 500gp worth of assorted starting equipment (robes, spellbook etc.) and 20,000 gp worth of magic items all of which list one of those two feats as a pre-req for creation.
Player 2 made a rogue they have maxed out stealth and sleight of hand and have skill focus in both. They have 500gp worth of assorted starting equipment and 20,000gp worth of magic items. Half of the magic items on their character sheet are noted as having been stolen.
Player 3 made a fighter. They don't have any crafting feats, and none of their skills are maxed out. However, they also give you a 4 page backstory that details how their character is a long lost heir to the throne. They have 500gp worth of assorted starting equipment, a +2 masterwork adaptive longbow that is indicated as being an heirloom weapon (worth approx 10k by its self) as well as 10,000gp worth of other magic items.
Player 4 made a Cleric. They don't have any crafting feats, but they do have spellcraft maxed out. They have 500gp worth of assorted starting equipment and 19,500gp worth of magic items. They have the feat craft wondrous item struck out and the note "250gp, Retrained to extra channel". They also have craft arms and armor struck out and the note "250gp, Retrained to selective channel". They also have a half-page backstory where they talk about having been an apprentice to a wizard who taught them how to create magic items before giving it up to go adventuring.
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In each case the player is starting with more gear than as indicated by WBL. Some players have taken more liberties with pre-game downtime than others have. Would any of the players be required to "make a roll?" Which players would require "correction"?
This is largely what the argument has been about. It's also probably worth noting that if player 3 gets what they want by merely providing a backstory players 1,2 and 4 are absolutely going to go back and write up how they too have an expensive item and add it to whatever they already had. Which may or may not make you happy as a DM.
Lord Kailas, your examples are exactly why a DM must be strict about what is and what isn’t allowed for character creation. As for who would need rolls and who would need corrections...
Player 1 would still need to roll spellcraft against the DC of their crafted magic items, some may have failed outright others might be cursed.
Player 2 would still need to roll sleight of hand to actually steal said items.
Player 3 would need revision. Allowances may be made at DM discretion.
Player 4 would be told retraining can be done after character creation, you either have the crafting feats at character creation and roll your checks or you didn’t craft any magic items.
If you are using one of the optional rules for crafting discount on creation, then you’d either correct everyone (as all exceed the maximum of +50% allotted by any of the optional rules found in the books) or you make the roll for anything crafted that exceeds the allotment. The thief stealing items would still need to roll sleight of hand, though at DM discretion a lower DC may be applied for the first few rolls. The forgotten nobleman would still need review, pending DM allowances. And player 4 is still abusing the rules and must make a choice.
Note: DM allowances for player 3 would be advisable if all other players have exceeded WBL, and it would be the DMs responsibility to inform the table that the allowance is only to keep everyone’s start even.
General rule of thumb guidelines:
Ask the following questions to determine if exceeding WBL if acceptable
[list]
Yes - proceed to follow selected crafting discount rule option
No - make them roll for it or revision
Yes - unacceptable, retraining is for post character creation
No - proceed
Yes - unacceptable, make them roll for it or revision.
No - proceed
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I don't craft in my games as I don't think it is enjoyable. I have been made to pick up scrolls once.
The most important thing to consider that has not been mentioned is the cost of items being non-linear.
For magic item crafting effectively doubles your wealth by level, but each enhancement cost approximately doubles the cost of the item so far.
The ring of protection starts at more than double and ends at 1.5 the cost. 2,000 gp (+1), 8,000 gp (+2), 18,000 gp (+3), 32,000 gp (+4), 50,000 gp (+5)
Headbands and belts start at 4x for an upgrade and end at 2.5 times the cost.
4,000 gp (+2), 16,000 gp (+4), 36,000 gp (+6)
So what does this mean doubling your wealth by level gets you a bunch of '+1s' but not even a full set of '+1s'. So let's be generous and say it makes a character about 5% better. The other use is to buy more scrolls, wands, and other cheap items that enhance preparedness. This will make you more than 5% better, but I don't think it will break the game if the player is not already trying to do that.
Start at level 1 and crafting mundane gear could have a more significant effect, but you are spending skill points and have to pick a narrow crafting skill like bows, or armour, so you will not be tripling your wealth.
The best reason to not do it is because it is not fun or because it gives a player an advantage.
@LordKailas, the cases you describe are precisely why I usually do not allow crafting and when I do, I specify that the regulations about it are meta-game, not needing to make sense for the characters, only the players.
When I searched the Rules forum recently, the results indicated that Take 10 was acceptable for the Spellcraft check on magic item creation. I can see the argument against allowing it, but that does seem to be the rule as written.
A 1st level crafter with 18INT and Spellcraft class skill starts at +8 bonus, and so auto-succeeds at crafting items up to CL4 (roll of 1 + 8 vs DC9). You'd have to attempt a CL9 (DC 14) item to even have a chance of getting a cursed item. Ignoring cost and availability of prerequisite spells, etc.
If the GM requires Spellcraft rolls for the character, they'd have to specify what level it's being done. Using the example above, a Wizard 5 is probably at a +12 and can't fail at creating items of CL8 or lower. That gets him a Headband of Vast Intelligence +2, so now he's up to CL10.
Hm. Rolling the Spellcraft isn't quite as bad as I thought.
Yeah, this is why I was wondering what needed to be rolled. By the rules you're allowed to take 10 for things like crafting checks.
When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help.
Not only that but the DC to craft a given item tends to have very little to do with it's cost. A pearl of power 1st level is a DC 22 to craft even though it only has a market price of 1k. Conversely, a bodywrap of mighty strikes +7 is a DC 10 to craft and has a market value of 147k.
So, "forcing the crafter to roll" instead of them just taking 10 won't have the desired result, as it will just force them to cheese the system. Also, what kind of roll would you be requiring of the rogue?
Is it a DC 10 sleight of hand check to steal a body wrap of mighty strikes? cause that's what the craft dc is.
It’s not.
okay