Aid another in combat useless?

[dpirate]

In PF1 the static AC was 10 so the idea was a monster with a super high AC could still be fought if your friend helped. The other situation was to give AC to the fighter so they could stand toe to toe.

Correct me if I’m wrong but now you have to actually also hit the monsters real AC to get the benefit? How does this help anyone?

[Fuzzypaws]

You're correct, as written you have to actually hit the monster's full AC to aid an attack against it, so you'd virtually always be better off just attacking it yourself.

The only use I can see is doing it as a third action, since I believe the Aid action doesn't take a multiple attack penalty.

[Xenocrat]

If you're having issues with resistance so that your hits don't do any/much damage, increase the to hit of your friend who can pierce the resistance and/or up his crit chance.

[Mergy]

Let's say my character is using a spear, which is only going to do 1d6 on a hit. It's also only going to deal piercing damage when I know that the enemy we're fighting is weak to bludgeoning. It's to my advantage to aid the fighter who is using a maul for 1d12. First, because he'll deal more damage if he hits than I do; secondly, he's far more likely to crit.

You still need to hit their AC, but the payoff is arguably far better than in PF1.

Now one change I would like is making Assist possible with reach weapons; as it stands currently, you need to be adjacent to the foe in order to Assist.

[Xenocrat]

Mergy wrote:

Now one change I would like is making Assist possible with reach weapons; as it stands currently, you need to be adjacent to the foe in order to Assist.

Reach weapons no longer have the Donut of Futility. You can attack an adjacent enemy with a reach weapon.

[dpirate]

Xenocrat wrote:

If you're having issues with resistance so that your hits don't do any/much damage, increase the to hit of your friend who can pierce the resistance and/or up his crit chance.

But the whole point of aid another was to aid “the other”. Your basically “wasting” your action in the hope to win the fight. Distracting the enemy enough (AC 10) seemed logical for the fighter to see a window to hit or cause the enemy to miss.

I’m getting really sick of losing so much with the new system. It’s like make everything mediocre so we all can have fun? Wtf! In my last game I was a halfling swashbuckler with the feat that raised my aid another from +2 to +4. So when we fought the BBEG and needed him to drop I gave the barbarian the extra. It was a viable loss of my action to have a real chance at a big payoff.

[Lightning Raven]

dpirate wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

If you're having issues with resistance so that your hits don't do any/much damage, increase the to hit of your friend who can pierce the resistance and/or up his crit chance.

But the whole point of aid another was to aid “the other”. Your basically “wasting” your action in the hope to win the fight. Distracting the enemy enough (AC 10) seemed logical for the fighter to see a window to hit or cause the enemy to miss.

I’m getting really sick of losing so much with the new system. It’s like make everything mediocre so we all can have fun? Wtf! In my last game I was a halfling swashbuckler with the feat that raised my aid another from +2 to +4. So when we fought the BBEG and needed him to drop I gave the barbarian the extra. It was a viable loss of my action to have a real chance at a big payoff.

I don't know why the hell they would do that. They could simply give the same DC for the AID reaction, DC 15. If it wasn't enough, it could be higher to prevent too much Critical Successes.

[Mergy]

Xenocrat wrote:

Mergy wrote:

Now one change I would like is making Assist possible with reach weapons; as it stands currently, you need to be adjacent to the foe in order to Assist.

Reach weapons no longer have the Donut of Futility. You can attack an adjacent enemy with a reach weapon.

I know there's no dead zone, but you're still not able to Assist unless adjacent. It means that even though you could attack with the intent to damage from range, you need to be adjacent in order to Assist.

"dpirate wrote:

But the whole point of aid another was to aid “the other”. Your basically “wasting” your action in the hope to win the fight. Distracting the enemy enough (AC 10) seemed logical for the fighter to see a window to hit or cause the enemy to miss.

I’m getting really sick of losing so much with the new system. It’s like make everything mediocre so we all can have fun? Wtf! In my last game I was a halfling swashbuckler with the feat that raised my aid another from +2 to +4. So when we fought the BBEG and needed him to drop I gave the barbarian the extra. It was a viable loss of my action to have a real chance at a big payoff.

The combat system is different. The big payoff in PF1 is making someone more accurate; the big payoff in PF2 is also substantially increasing your ally's chance to get a critical hit. That's a MUCH bigger payoff than giving the barbarian a slightly higher chance to hit. I actually see a lot more mediocrity in PF1's Aid Another, due to how little difference +2 to attack means once the martials have all their bonuses lined up. In PF2, these bonuses are a lot harder to obtain.

[Zwordsman]

I really do think that Assist Action should target TAC not AC... you aren't hitting them, you're making them distracted, so a sudden wide strike that draws their attention, or interposing your weapon/shield when they attack your friend. etc.

of note, if you take fighter's dedication + the lv 2 class feat assisting shot You can assist with a ranged weapon.
I'm building an alchemist who is using it with darts or maybe shuriken (freee reload >,>) depends on how hard it is to get that proficiency. uncommon weapons are weird. Not sure if Fighter's Dedication nets me that or not. I think it does. just might have to make them myself).

It really is problematic to hit the AC though. But, one thing I figured out on my alchemist, which can sorta apply to most characters, "throw a bottled lightning first" This makes it flat footed, -2AC. Not much.. but it helps you and everyone else. Then. I will use 2 assist actions, one to give my friend +2 to hit, and then

So my alchemist's version has fighter's dedication + assisting shot + the human feat cooperative nature. (lv 5+)
Throws a bottled lightning, -2 AC flat footed to everyone (extra tasty for rogues). then throws an assiting dart to give my ally +2 circ bonus to hit, then one more dart to give the enemy a -2 circ penalty to hit my friend. from pretty far away.
The bottled lighting isn't for every enemy though.. cause.. yeah I don't have nearly enough of them. but for important enemies.
My friend does eat the splash damage though.
.

[Seannoss]

Assist has the attack trait, so it should take MAP into effect... from my understanding, which could be wrong.

If so, that make it very situational at best.

[Mergy]

Seannoss wrote:

Assist has the attack trait, so it should take MAP into effect... from my understanding, which could be wrong.

If so, that make it very situational at best.

Situational is honestly fine. Why would you want to Assist as your go to all the time?

Although I do have a build in mind: bard with fighter dedication and Assisting Shot: you're usually either performing and shooting or casting and shooting, meaning no worries about MAP.

[Zwordsman]

Oops, indeed it has the attack trait. Which is painful. well makes the agile trait more useful at least.

But mostly, because Alchemists aren't that powerful in combat. but. they have a big tool box.

I should reverse the OOP. Assit action first, then flask(TAC), then...something with the last one. I should look into intimidation or other actions that require just one.. Otherworlyd Magic Via Elf for one of the Bard-like cantrips would work well actually. Well also Raise Shield action would work.

but as for why would I want to assist often.. Not always, no, but, if i'm working with my big bruiser friend? With the bottled lightening and assist action, I can give them en effective +4 to crit. Which isn't terrible.

lastly. I like thrown builds. but, like p1, p2 doesn't really support magically thrown items. I was hoping they'd have magic gloves that allowd enchanting thrown weapons--like the ones for unarmed strikes?
because that is really all that is needed for a thrown weapon build to be valid.

[Mudfoot]

Aid (a reaction) can be used in combat now that Athletics (a skill) is used for combat maneuvers. And it has a nominally fixed DC (usually 15) and doesn't have the Attack trait.

So if your colleague is attempting to disarm the orc, you can use the reaction you probably weren't otherwise using (no AoO) to give him a fairly achievable +2. It's unclear whether ACP hinders you in this case.

[Impuls]

I'm going to say that you should use DC's guidline from GM section. For example, versus 1st level goblin you should use a high 1st level DC wich is 14. Versus Darcus it is better to use 3rd level severe DC wich is 18 (since he is a 3d level boss).

[Shinigami02]

Mudfoot wrote:

Aid (a reaction) can be used in combat now that Athletics (a skill) is used for combat maneuvers. And it has a nominally fixed DC (usually 15) and doesn't have the Attack trait.

So if your colleague is attempting to disarm the orc, you can use the reaction you probably weren't otherwise using (no AoO) to give him a fairly achievable +2. It's unclear whether ACP hinders you in this case.

The problem is using the Aid Reaction requires you first have prepared to help, which generally costs an Action. An Action you notably could have been using for some other purpose.

EDIT: It also requires explaining how you're helping and the GM going along with it, so expect table variation on if you can even Aid with combat maneuvers.

[thorin001]

Fuzzypaws wrote:

You're correct, as written you have to actually hit the monster's full AC to aid an attack against it, so you'd virtually always be better off just attacking it yourself.

The only use I can see is doing it as a third action, since I believe the Aid action doesn't take a multiple attack penalty.

At low levels this is correct. The difference between a d4 and a d10 is really not that big. At higher levels with magic weapons you are better off making sure the heavy hitter lands his blow. The difference between a d4 and 3d10 is huge.

[Draco18s]

thorin001 wrote:

At low levels this is correct. The difference between a d4 and a d10 is really not that big. At higher levels with magic weapons you are better off making sure the heavy hitter lands his blow. The difference between a d4 and 3d10 is huge.

Wouldn't it be 3d4?

[thorin001]

Draco18s wrote:

thorin001 wrote:

At low levels this is correct. The difference between a d4 and a d10 is really not that big. At higher levels with magic weapons you are better off making sure the heavy hitter lands his blow. The difference between a d4 and 3d10 is huge.

Wouldn't it be 3d4?

Only if the person doing the aiding invested in being effective in melee. And that does not seem to be the assumption here.

[Draco18s]

thorin001 wrote:

And that does not seem to be the assumption here.

Why isn't it, though?

Staffs (some really good magic items for casters) are expert by default and can be inscribed with runes, same as any item.

[thorin001]

Draco18s wrote:

thorin001 wrote:

And that does not seem to be the assumption here.

Why isn't it, though?

Staffs (some really good magic items for casters) are expert by default and can be inscribed with runes, same as any item.

They can be, but as a wizard are you going to spend your resources on being a better wizard or on being a better fighter?

[Zwordsman]

I mean an alchemist build that is human and uses aid another isn't a terrible idea concept.

[Draco18s]

thorin001 wrote:

They can be, but as a wizard are you going to spend your resources on being a better wizard or on being a better fighter?

There aren't any items that make you a better wizard. Well there is. It's called a staff.

[Quijenoth]

Draco18s wrote:

thorin001 wrote:

They can be, but as a wizard are you going to spend your resources on being a better wizard or on being a better fighter?

There aren't any items that make you a better wizard. Well there is. It's called a staff.

He said resources, not items. I assume he's referring to the investment in feats and spells that makes you want to stand in melee range to actually aid another, rather than hiding behind the fighter and attacking with spells. I don't know about you but even at low level I'd be keeping my "untrained in all armor" wizard well out of harms reach as much as possible.