I thought they DID get spells levels at the same rate as wizards now? That was my impression from the blog, at least.
Sorcerers have the same number of spells as wizards. Each class has a lot of flexibility in their spellcasting - it just takes different forms. Wizards are very flexible in what they cast (they can prepare a lot of different things and with a feat, even swap them during the day), while sorcerers are very flexible in how they cast (spontaneous heightening, casting any spell at any time).
And that also assumes you compare them to a wizard. If you want to take divine, occult, or primal spells instead, then you're far more flexible than any of those casters.
You do realize they get like 40 something spells by 20th level, right? And they know all of them always? And can retrain those spells a week per spell in downtime right?
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Skills of the sorcerer is weirdly worded. The sorcerer page says 5 plus Int and the bloodline says you are trained in the skills listed. So does that mean you have a total of 9 plus int skills trained at level 1? I assume the bloodline should only make the sorcerer skills signature skills. Whether you are trained in it depends on the 5 plus Int you choose.
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i don't really agree with most of this. I think they have problems, definitely:
1- the skill training which should just be signature skills phrasing,
2- spontaneous heighten is a bit of a mess
3- they got gutted on class feats, (not getting any at 6 and 10) which didn't happen to any of the other casters, even druids, which have also have a whole mess of powers and a even separate power pool for wild shape.
But for these suggestions:
Free powers doesn't make any sense at all.
Spells known seems about right to me. Sorcerers don't need to have an answer to every question. They just don't need to be pointlessly hobbled like 3.x or have fewer basics (feats, which drastically reduces their customization and accessibility of archetypes).
Sorcerers have the same number of spells as wizards. Each class has a lot of flexibility in their spellcasting - it just takes different forms. Wizards are very flexible in what they cast (they can prepare a lot of different things and with a feat, even swap them during the day), while sorcerers are very flexible in how they cast (spontaneous heightening, casting any spell at any time).
And that also assumes you compare them to a wizard. If you want to take divine, occult, or primal spells instead, then you're far more flexible than any of those casters.
Sorcerers need more spells since they know far fewer spells.
As of now sorcerers have to learn the same spell a multiple levels....so that alone makes them useless and is a massively stupid idea.
The different spell lists don't matter because you only get one of them (you can't switch them out) and you still end up with too few spells. The flexibility just makes the sorcerer into different spontaneous casters instead of writing up 4 classes that are basically them same. It really is not more flexible in game play.
They don’t NEED to have each spell at each level. For the ones that they do want (dispell magic comes to mind) then you have spontaneous heightening. If you have taken that then you are better at heightening those spells then a wizard as you can heighten on the fly and do more dispelling if required.
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1. Fix the free heighten thing.
2. Add Class Feats at 6th and 10th level.
3. Create more bloodline-dependant class feats.
Doesn't seem like a LOT of work to me.
I think the paralysis of choice was a minor part of the reason behind restricting spontaneous heightening. I think Paizo was mostly afraid of how powerful it would be compared to prepared caster heightening, and to be honest, I am not sure how right or wrong that would be. I don't even know if I am going to need to use heightening on more than 2 types of spells, though having to learn the same spell twice for a potential 3rd heighten-able spell looks frustrating.
What I do like is how sorcerers got a really sizable boost to their skills. It'll let them supplement their limited spells known with some "mundane" abilities in out of combat situations.
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It's worth noting that a lot of heightened spells mimic spells with greater/lesser or tiered versions in 1e. For example, heightened summon takes the place of summon 2-9, 4th level invis takes the place of greater invis, and so on. This change is pretty power neutral for the Wizard, who could just know a ton of spells anyways, but Sorc is MUCH better off than 1e in terms of the value you get from knowing Summon Monster, Invis, and other spells like them. On top of that, the two spontaneous heighten slots are enough to cover your build's main strategy most of the time, anyways (be it fireball spam, summon spam, or whatever else).
The above is really important. Sorc gets a lot more bang for their buck on the spells they choose to learn in this edition, and Paizo is probably playing it cautiously.
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My contribution: Move bloodline powers to the sorcerer section of the book!
Seconded with the addendum of:
Move all powers to the appropriate class section of the book.
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I will agree with one thing, it irked me that Sorcerers lost out a lot in the way of class feats. I do not agree with the notion that they need a lot more spell slots though.
1) You get additional spells and spell slots by way of the extra spells granted by your bloodline. That bears repeating; every time your bloodline gives you an additional spell, you get an additional spell slot.
2) You want to learn a spell in its heightened form? You can do that, then you can forgo the lower leveled version and replace it with a brand new spell of the same level.
3) All of this is before keeping in mind Spontaneous Heightening, where you can pick the two most valuable spells you'll need for the day and be able to cast them at any heightened level you wish. Facing a horde of undead and need to be ready to clear them out? Heighten your Fireball and another AoE spell and wipe them out.
Setting that aside, the issue of feats; I can see what the intent was, as at levels 6 and 10 you get your advanced and greater bloodline powers. That means if as intended, you're essentially meant to get the customization you would normally get from feats selected at such levels. For example, the Draconic bloodline gets Dragon Breath at level 6, and Dragon Wings at level 10. Compare to in 1e, where you don't get those powers until level 9 and 15, respectively.
So in essence, I can see what they were going for by maintaining the bloodline as the Sorcerer's most defining attribute. But expecting bloodline powers to replace feats isn't a course of action I can completely agree with, as it does indeed restrict other means of customization and the ability for a Sorcerer to multiclass.
Going over it I am somewhat conflicted, because I see both ends of the argument. I think the best option would to give feats at levels 6 and 10 that directly relate to the bloodline, much like the Paladin feats based on your selection of oaths (if any).
My contribution: Move bloodline powers to the sorcerer section of the book!Seconded with the addendum of:
Move all powers to the appropriate class section of the book.
My one thought with this (which admittedly needs me to actually play a game with a sorcerer first) is that the bloodline powers all seem a bit "mundane" when compared to the 1e versions of bloodline powers. Yes, all the powers (in both versions) are ~mostly~ imitations of spell effects, but apparently with the fluff written into the 1e powers made them seem more exotic. Maybe it was the relative bonkers nature of the capstone powers that made it seem like the class/bloodline was leading to something.
You do realize that the various casting tied skills (Religion, Arcana, ect) allows even spontaneous casters to learn new spells they encounter, (just like a wizard) right? It's in the skill section under "learn an X spell."
X denoting the relevant Skill/Spell list in question.
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My problems with sorcerer, and bard where applicable:
1) Fewer class feats. For a system that requires class feats to be able to tade them out for archetypes, prestige classes, or multiclassing, the sorcerer comes up extremely short in their ability to use these. Every class should have the same number of class feats if class feats are essential to how 2e and character customization is working.
2) "Spontaneous" Heighten. First it's a complete misnomer, it's prepared heighten. You prepare what spells you want to heighten . Secondly it's a bandaid fix to spontaneous casters who are completely inferior to prepared casters in regards to 2e's spell system. A wizard only needs one copy of the spell and he can cast all versions. Sure it has to be prepared but now he only needs 10 minutes to swap out his prepped list mid day. Sorcerer has to retrain AND give up a different spell. Or wait another day to prepare spontaneous heighten differently, completely counter to the sorcerer design.
3) No form of down casting. Not only is the sorcerer screwed out of the new core feature of spell heightening, a requirement for more advanced spells but they can't even cast a weaker version of a spell they already know. They're not different spells, they're the same spell at different power levels. If I know fireball 5 then I should be able to cast fireball 3. It's the same spell but with less power.
4) "Paralysis of choice". It's a bullahit cop out. How is there no issue about paralysis of choice when it comes to prepared casters and what they want to prepare?
5) Bloodline powers seem pretty weak once again. Granted, I haven't playtested them yet but they've once again gone with "go melee things" as sorcerer powers. The more martial oriented bloodlines should also give armor proficiency and/or other methods to make them less squishy. Otherwise they're basically useless. And they cost a class feat.
5) Bloodline powers seem pretty weak once again. Granted, I haven't playtested them yet but they've once again gone with "go melee things" as sorcerer powers. The more martial oriented bloodlines should also give armor proficiency and/or other methods to make them less squishy. Otherwise they're basically useless. And they cost a class feat.
For a class feat at second level, you can take Fighter dedication, gain training in all armor and martial weapons, and be ready to go toe-to-toe with (most) enemies. That said, I need to play around with a warcaster build more to make a greater judgement call on this.
On the subject of spell access, Wizards don't actually have as much extra access to spells anymore. You only get four free per level (five if you're a specialist), and the prices to add more on page 146 are fairly steep. Plus you have to get GM permission/justification to access uncommon spells like Teleport, so expect quests/roleplaying/begging just to get them.
It's not going to be feasible to have 10+ spells per level in your spellbook. You're going to have to be choosy with your wealth and investment of time/GM goodwill to get the spells that aren't common.
That said, I do think Sorcerers need access to extra heightening (the Bard can heighten up to 5 spells!) and more class feats. Wizards beat them up not because of spell flexibility but because of more/better class feats that let them have a lot more uses of spells and more powerful spells.
I have to agree, Xenocraft. The whole noting of rarity of spells is kinda odd, and limiting. Honestly, except for spells I don't care for, I think I'll end up ignoring the rarity completely.
Cost wise, it looks steep, but it's in SP not GP. It's something I have to see in actual game play before I'd change it.
I don't mind rarity. I can see why a Wizard would sell you a teleport, but I can't see why he would sell you the teleport spell - he doesn't want competitors. The best/niche spells are going to be tightly held and only traded for special favors.
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You do realize that the various casting tied skills (Religion, Arcana, ect) allows even spontaneous casters to learn new spells they encounter, (just like a wizard) right? It's in the skill section under "learn an X spell."
X denoting the relevant Skill/Spell list in question.
But it doesn't give you more spells. Just that you can add it when you have an open slot (from leveling) or swap in that spell to replace something else.
Which is actually fine, but I thought it should be clear 'learn a spell' doesn't increase the spell repertoire.
Also note that the DCs look to be scaled so that you have a roughly 50-50 shot at success.
Look at the failure:
Failure: You fail to learn the spell but can try again after you
gain a level. The materials aren’t expended.
Yikes. When you level you could probably just learn the spell anyway!
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Sorcerer flavor text - what is the risk that your blood carries? There’s no downside whatsoever - it’s not like there’s an Oracle curse, or the ability to “overtax” your blood magic and hurt yourself.
Bloodline descriptions are tonally off. Aberrant isn’t about unknowable influences, it’s about influence from strange and bizzare entities - could be very known depending on the background. Demonic should have to do with demons or the abyss, not the more generic “malign corruption” which could mean just about anything from vampiric curses, infernal, demonic, or other stuff. Angelic is fine to be holy, but grace doesn’t have to do with it necessarily.
Heightening Spells - not a good feature to have sorcerers have to learn spells at each level instead of knowing the spell at all levels like wizards. Giving spontaneous heightening still gives them enough choices to make that letting them pick the right spell at the right level isn’t really adding too much cognitive decisions to make each round.
Bloodline spell lists - each bloodline should at the minimum give a choice of two spell lists. All should give arcane as an option, plus the listed one. For those already listing arcane, pick another, such as primal for draconic and occult for imperial. Letting any bloodline pick any spell list would also be viable. Many of these don’t match the abilities of the actual source though - demons for instant are known for destructive spells, which is a much better fit with arcane, angels from Elysium often have powers more akin to the primal spell list, etc.
Draconic - should the dragon type restrict the use of the bloodline spell dragon form to be the same type?
Arcane and Occult Evolution - what does becoming trained in a skill have to do with this feat?
Conceal Spell - why isn’t this what bards get instead of melodic spell? They do the same thing, except bards can’t get it until 8th level instead of 4th?
Magical Striker - why was Arcane Strike renamed?
Overwhelming Spell - why is this limited to energy resistances? Wouldn’t it also make sense for poison, evil, good, etc?
Also please move bloodline powers to the Feat list (like Bard, Barbarian, Druid, and Cleric...) and give us back our 6th and 20th level feats.
Conceal Spell - why isn’t this what bards get instead of melodic spell? They do the same thing, except bards can’t get it until 8th level instead of 4th?
The bard version is far superior - it only takes one skill check instead of two, and it uses a skill check that can be (and almost certainly will be) more optimized than any skills the Sorcerer will have.