Deadmanwalking's Reaction Thread

[Alric Rahl]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Organization:

The Classes are great. I just want to start by gushing that the Class layouts are wonderful and extraordinarily clear. I love them. The Ancestry layouts are also very solid, as is the character creation section prior to all that.

In contrast, the General Feats chapter hurts me. I mean, we're back to long alphabetical lists you have to search through for your options, and to make it worse the Skill Feats are just mixed in with the rest of the General Feats. I get that they're technically a subcategory, but you pick more of them, so having them separated is verging on absolutely necessary.

Magic Items and Spells being alphabetical seems fine given the listings by level to start things off and the fact that organizing them otherwise would be logistically unworkable.

Alchemical Items are similar, but much worse because there isn't even a table (or not one I can find) that lists them by level at all. Which makes the logistics of picking new ones for an Alchemist something of a nightmare. The same is true of Snares, there are just fewer of them, lessening the logistical hurdle.

I would rather have everything listed by level. It’s not logistically unworkable, you literally just add a small bar that says level 1Spells and then they can be listed alphabetically. Change the spells list at the beginning to be just by level with brackets indicating which spell list it is on. This would actually save 1-2 pages since most repeat the same spells anyway.

Same thing with the treasure item lists.

[Alric Rahl]

I think you all forget that resonance goes up with level the bag of holding thing twice per day can be done at 1st level with a 16 cha. At 4th level it can be done 2 more times per day. Resonance will honestly be a non-issue at 4th and higher. Since it only costs 1 point to invest in worn items (Armor, boots, amulets, rings etc.) that means at 4th level you can activate all those at the beginning of the day and still have 3-4 resonance points for per use activation items (potions, wands, staves, weapon abilities).

[Gorbacz]

Hythlodeus wrote:

pauljathome wrote:

There will be more options in the actual book and then the usual flood of options in later splat books

IF Paizo survives long enough pushing PF2 to even produce those splat books

You do realize that if Paizo survives long enough you won't be able to make a single post on this board without me linking all those recent posts of yours, sure? :)

[The Narration]

Kodyboy wrote:

The Narration wrote:

I don't understand why the Fighter can't get Expert and Master in all armors like they do in all weapons. Which armor you wear is going to depend on your Dex and how much you care about skills and speed. It doesn't make much sense to restrict it to only heavy.

Can't you just take the armor feat multiple times to bring it up to legendary?

Negative. Armor Proficiency feat gives you trained in light armor, then medium, then heavy. It doesn't increase your proficiency rank past trained.

[bugleyman]

Hythlodeus wrote:

pauljathome wrote:

There will be more options in the actual book and then the usual flood of options in later splat books

IF Paizo survives long enough pushing PF2 to even produce those splat books

I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble deciding whether you're afraid that will happen, or if you want it to happen. You know, so you could be PROVEN RIGHT™.

It's painfully obvious that PF 1E was getting it's clocked cleaned by D&D 5E. Your preferred outcome -- 1E til the end of time -- was NEVER viable, as many of us have been pointing out for literally YEARS.

Also: "Pushing"? Stay classy.

[MerlinCross]

bugleyman wrote:

Hythlodeus wrote:

pauljathome wrote:

There will be more options in the actual book and then the usual flood of options in later splat books

IF Paizo survives long enough pushing PF2 to even produce those splat books

I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble deciding whether you're afraid that will happen, or if you want it to happen. You know, so you could be PROVEN RIGHT™.

It's painfully obvious that PF 1E was getting it's clocked cleaned by D&D 5E. Your preferred outcome -- 1E til the end of time -- was NEVER viable, as many of us have been pointing out for literally YEARS.

Also: "Pushing"? Stay classy.

Part of that is the game, part of that is marketing and streams though.

I agree, PF1 was... well I personally would say stable but looking bad. Not on life support just yet but this is just from one player.

PF2 however has the goal of;
-Attracting new players that DnD 5 didn't pull in
-Attracting players from DnD 5 that didn't like PF1
-Keeping PF1 players

So it has to be PF, but not PF enough to get new players, but also different enough from DnD 5 to pull in players that didn't like DnD 5. And all the while trying to show people the changes and market itself against DnD 5 and the base/brand they have.

Will it fail? No but it does seem to have an uphill battle. Was it here or elsewhere that someone said that ... Enworld(?) posters just shrugged and said "Eh it'll be like PF1".

I mean I wish it luck even with all my complaints but at the same time there's nothing I see in the playtest that makes me want to play it that I can't port back to PF1. And while I wish them luck, not going to buy something I don't enjoy just to support them.

But this is just one poster who doesn't have any clout/weight/whatever to really effect this one way or another. All I can do is just vent, supply some fixes or point out strange choices, and put forth the survey at the end of it.

I mean let's be honest guys; if PF2 does burn out for any number of reasons, I highly doubt PF1 will continue anyway. Maybe Paizo can survive to do something else but PF1 is done for them and while I don't like PF2's looks, I don't want to to crash and burn and take some people's jobs with it.

[bugleyman]

MerlinCross wrote:

Maybe Paizo can survive to do something else but PF1 is done for them and while I don't like PF2's looks, I don't want to to crash and burn and take some people's jobs with it.

First: Good on you.

Second: If you don't like the game's looks, then help Paizo make it better by saying what you don't like and why. The problem is that far too many posts are crossing the line between "constructive criticism" and "angry venting," which helps no one. As I've said, there are some aspects of PF2 that I'm not too sure of, either, but I want it to succeed (if for no other reason than I largely gave up on PF1 years ago).

[Hythlodeus]

bugleyman wrote:

Frankly, I think you're mad, and that you desperately want 2E -- any 2E -- to be a mistake

Oh boy... no, I want PF2 to succeed and to find a target audience, even though I probably won't be it. but atm, I don't see a target audience for what is presented in the playtest.

You won't win a large amount of the 3.x players over to PF2, it's to different a system.
You probably won't win a large amount of 5E players overr either. While not to my tastes, 5E has an easy accessabilty that PF2 in this playtest form doesn't have.
And new players, people interested in Fantasy RPG, will mostly try out the game with the brand recognition aka D&D instead of PF2

Even with a system that is the holy grail of systems, it is a hard fight

[Forseti]

Alric Rahl wrote:

I think you all forget that resonance goes up with level the bag of holding thing twice per day can be done at 1st level with a 16 cha. At 4th level it can be done 2 more times per day. Resonance will honestly be a non-issue at 4th and higher. Since it only costs 1 point to invest in worn items (Armor, boots, amulets, rings etc.) that means at 4th level you can activate all those at the beginning of the day and still have 3-4 resonance points for per use activation items (potions, wands, staves, weapon abilities).

Why then introduce a system at all if it eventually flattens into a non-issue?

[thejeff]

Alric Rahl wrote:

I think you all forget that resonance goes up with level the bag of holding thing twice per day can be done at 1st level with a 16 cha. At 4th level it can be done 2 more times per day. Resonance will honestly be a non-issue at 4th and higher. Since it only costs 1 point to invest in worn items (Armor, boots, amulets, rings etc.) that means at 4th level you can activate all those at the beginning of the day and still have 3-4 resonance points for per use activation items (potions, wands, staves, weapon abilities).

Which would apparently let me put a found potion in my bag of holding, then take it out and drink it later. And I might still be able to do something else.

[AndIMustMask]

Kodyboy wrote:

The Narration wrote:

I don't understand why the Fighter can't get Expert and Master in all armors like they do in all weapons. Which armor you wear is going to depend on your Dex and how much you care about skills and speed. It doesn't make much sense to restrict it to only heavy.

Can't you just take the armor feat multiple times to bring it up to legendary?

and since fighter doesnt get more feats than anyone else anymore, you're spending a precious resource (several times) to do something you should be able to do fairly upfront.

[Deadmanwalking]

Whoah. Can everyone calm down here? I doubt strongly that Hythlodeus meant anything offensive with the word 'pushing', as magnuskn notes, and the responses are getting over the top even if he did.

I mean 'unhinged' comes off at least as badly as 'pushing' seems to have.

Let's all chill out, try to be polite to each other, and not assume bad intent in the word choices of others, alright?

[Shinigami02]

Kodyboy wrote:

The Narration wrote:

I don't understand why the Fighter can't get Expert and Master in all armors like they do in all weapons. Which armor you wear is going to depend on your Dex and how much you care about skills and speed. It doesn't make much sense to restrict it to only heavy.

Can't you just take the armor feat multiple times to bring it up to legendary?

Sadly doesn't work that way. The feat buys you Trained proficiency in Light, or if you already have that Trained in Medium, or if you have that Trained in Heavy, and you can take it multiple times to get all of those if you need them. If you're already Trained in Heavy armor though it does nothing, as it doesn't go higher than Trained proficiency.

[Cyouni]

AndIMustMask wrote:

Kodyboy wrote:

The Narration wrote:

I don't understand why the Fighter can't get Expert and Master in all armors like they do in all weapons. Which armor you wear is going to depend on your Dex and how much you care about skills and speed. It doesn't make much sense to restrict it to only heavy.

Can't you just take the armor feat multiple times to bring it up to legendary?

and since fighter doesnt get more feats than anyone else anymore, you're spending a precious resource (several times) to do something you should be able to do fairly upfront.

That's not precisely true - Fighter does get two floating class feats, and general ones don't seem that powerful to me, being more small things to fill in slightly weak bits in your character.

I do want to see Fighters getting Expert/Master in all armours, though.

[bugleyman]

magnuskn wrote:

bugleyman wrote:

P.S. And referring to publishing an RPG in the terms used to describe selling illicit drugs isn't classy; it's unhinged.

You might want to update your English speaking repertoire a bit. "pushing a narrative" or "pushing an agenda" is a standard phrase in political discourse.

And...you think that's an accident? Please. Both "agenda" and "narrative" have very negative connotations "in political discourse" for a reason.

P.S. Your comment about my "English speaking repertoire" came across as more than a little condescending (assuming you care).

[Deadmanwalking]

bugleyman wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

bugleyman wrote:

P.S. And referring to publishing an RPG in the terms used to describe selling illicit drugs isn't classy; it's unhinged.

You might want to update your English speaking repertoire a bit. "pushing a narrative" or "pushing an agenda" is a standard phrase in political discourse.

And...you think that's an accident? Please. Both "agenda" and "narrative" have very negative connotations "in political discourse" for a reason.

P.S. Your comment about my "English speaking repertoire" came across as more than a little condescending (assuming you care).

I'm not saying you're wrong in terms of etymology. The word choice seems poor to me. But can we not leap to the conclusion that poor word choice is sinister?

Seriously, you're attributing to malice something that could very easily have been unintentional, and derailing this thread into an unpleasant and emotionally loaded semantic argument. Please stop.

[AndIMustMask]

Cyouni wrote:

AndIMustMask wrote:

Kodyboy wrote:

The Narration wrote:

I don't understand why the Fighter can't get Expert and Master in all armors like they do in all weapons. Which armor you wear is going to depend on your Dex and how much you care about skills and speed. It doesn't make much sense to restrict it to only heavy.

Can't you just take the armor feat multiple times to bring it up to legendary?

and since fighter doesnt get more feats than anyone else anymore, you're spending a precious resource (several times) to do something you should be able to do fairly upfront.

That's not precisely true - Fighter does get two floating class feats, and general ones don't seem that powerful to me, being more small things to fill in slightly weak bits in your character.

I do want to see Fighters getting Expert/Master in all armours, though.

you are right there, i forgot the flexible combat feature. really though, i think they could easily stand to get 3-4 flex-feats over their career instead of the measly 2 at endgame to let them say, grab a whole relevant feat tree, without being anywhere approaching overpowered (not that you're implying that)

[Strachan Fireblade]

I, too, would like to extend my admiration to DMW for the tone of the thread, his insights, and his ability to present well reasoned points.

One item not mentioned that I think the dev's should review is the Paladins 2nd level oath feats. While I like the concept I feel mechanically they are too similar to the 1e rangers favored enemy. This is a feat who's value is largely under the DMs control. I feel these could be reworked to be less situational. One option would be to remove them from feats and make them a class feature option at a whatever level seems reasonable. Or alternatively, leave them as feats but change the benefit to be more wide ranging and less situational.

The other thing I'd like the dev's to comment on sooner than later is how many more feats or options will be available in the full CRB. I think this can help the community provide feedback on what should be included in the CRB. Forex, if the content isn't expanded much beyond this, then certain concepts that can't be fleshed out should be dropped in favour of providing deeper options in the existing concepts. I also think this helps with consumer expectations upon release.

One last note. I personally think this will be a great system. I do worry that the system requires a lot of study to fully understand and it may be too much for the average player. Amongst my own group I see some players picking this up quickly, some needing more time to understand the rules and one player who I privately wonder if he is truly able to grasp the rules. Additionally on the forums I see plenty of posters who jump to conclusions based on erroneous assumptions. I don't mean this as a slight to anyone, it's just a trend I've noticed.

[Strachan Fireblade]

I have perused weapons a bit. It appears the dev's worked hard to find a niche for each weapon. As far as the elven curve blade goes it seems it is only 1 of 2 weapons that are finesse that deals d8. The other is the spiked chain. I'm not sure of all the areas where that may be an advantage but I am guessing its providing the rogue with a higher damage option. Very niche but it's an option nonetheless.

[Aristophanes]

Thanks for this, DMW.
I do want to say, that while I like the 3 action economy, >10< crit system, the UTEML proficiency system, Signature skills(although I do agree that Barbs and Fighters need more skill ranks and all classes at least one floating sig), resonance, and Goblins in core; IF THEY DON'T RESTORE FULL PRESTIDIGITATION TO BARDS, INFERNAL DAMNATION WILL SEEM LIKE A WALK THROUGH THE PARK, COMPARED TO MY WRATH!
*ahem* We now return you to our regularly scheduled thread, already in progress.

[A Ninja Errant]

Strachan Fireblade wrote:

I have perused weapons a bit. It appears the dev's worked hard to find a niche for each weapon. As far as the elven curve blade goes it seems it is only 1 of 2 weapons that are finesse that deals d8. The other is the spiked chain. I'm not sure of all the areas where that may be an advantage but I am guessing its providing the rogue with a higher damage option. Very niche but it's an option nonetheless.

Finesse Striker only works with one-handed weapons. You can still Sneak Attack with a 2-handed finesse or agile weapon, but you don't get Dex to damage. So I'm not sure who the curve blade is for, but probably not Rogues. Maybe Dex based Elf Fighters, or Fighter/Rogues?

Spiked chain is for...I dunno, it's an odd option. It's an Uncommon Martial weapon that requires 2 hands, is in the flail category, and has all the exact abilities of a war flail...except it trades Sweep for Finesse and a lower damage die. Maybe a Fighter/Rogue who likes using combat maneuvers a lot could get some mileage out of it?

Hmmm looking at it, Whip is actually a pretty good off-hand weapon if you like combat maneuvers. Disarm, Finesse, Nonlethal, Reach, Trip. Nonlethal doesn't matter if you only ever use it for combat maneuvers. Also it's one handed, so Rogues get Dex to damage, and can sneak attack with it.
EDIT: Also allows you to flank with reach.

[Strachan Fireblade]

A Ninja Errant wrote:

Strachan Fireblade wrote:

I have perused weapons a bit. It appears the dev's worked hard to find a niche for each weapon. As far as the elven curve blade goes it seems it is only 1 of 2 weapons that are finesse that deals d8. The other is the spiked chain. I'm not sure of all the areas where that may be an advantage but I am guessing its providing the rogue with a higher damage option. Very niche but it's an option nonetheless.

Finesse Striker only works with one-handed weapons. You can still Sneak Attack with a 2-handed finesse or agile weapon, but you don't get Dex to damage. So I'm not sure who the curve blade is for, but probably not Rogues. Maybe Dex based Elf Fighters, or Fighter/Rogues?

Yeah I reread the rogue after posting this.

It's also possible these weapons are design spaces for future classes but at the moment they certainly seem like outlier choices.

[JulianW]

Vic Ferrari wrote:

Someone else mentioned the katana, yeah, what is the point of its entry (talk about a waste of space)?

I love the fact a katana and a longsword have basically identical stats. Wield the one you think suits your character's background / personal style best without losing out.

[A Ninja Errant]

I'm more confused that both of them seem somewhat...meh. I feel like the Longsword might move from ubiquitous to uncommon in play. Then again, maybe a d8 damage is worth giving up on special abilities for. Hard to say just yet I suppose.
On the flip side, since Reach no longer limits your close quarters ability, I think we'll be seeing a surge in the popularity of polearms, especially among Fighters and anybody else who picks up AoO. The Glaive in particular is looking rather nice to me. Might try making a Polearm AoO Fighter soon.

[Deadmanwalking]

Damage die matters a lot in PF2. I'd thus expect to see plenty of Longswords (along with Battle Axes, Warhammers, and Tridents), and maybe more Guisarmes, Halberds, and Ranseurs than Glaives (though Glaive has very good properties, I'll grant).

[gustavo iglesias]

pauljathome wrote:

gustavo iglesias wrote:

I thought classes were straigth jacked in this system and there was no customization possible.

This is definitely an overstatement.

Heck, most classes have several "subclasses" built in (e.g Order of Druid) and it is pretty easy to mix/match abilities from different "subclasses".

There is multiclassing and archetypes. Together with the usual customization offered by heritages, feat, skill and spell selection.

Its the PLAYTEST of the FIRST book. Paizo is (for very good reason) focused on the big issues right now. There will be more options in the actual book and then the usual flood of options in later splat books

I think I should have ended my post with an /irony tag.

[AndIMustMask]

JulianW wrote:

Vic Ferrari wrote:

Someone else mentioned the katana, yeah, what is the point of its entry (talk about a waste of space)?

I love the fact a katana and a longsword have basically identical stats. Wield the one you think suits your character's background / personal style best without losing out.

there's a whole copypasta from years ago that would be great here

[Arachnofiend]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Damage die matters a lot in PF2. I'd thus expect to see plenty of Longswords (along with Battle Axes, Warhammers, and Tridents), and maybe more Guisarmes, Halberds, and Ranseurs than Glaives (though Glaive has very good properties, I'll grant).

I'm curious to see more flails in play. d10 damage on the war flail is solid, and it sits as the best way for 2-handed characters to effectively utilize combat maneuvers.

[Dysphoria Blues]

I wish I had something to contribute other than saying thanks for creating this thorough thread, DMW. It is greatly appreciated. I am mostly a lurker haha - and am not savvy enough to truly dig through the material and make constructive comments like everyone else is doing - so it is a treat getting to read through all this. :)

Cheers!

- D.B.

[Gavmania]

One of the things that I am beginning to find annoying is that many of the things we are being told do not need to be in the playtest (because they know they work) are the very things we want to use to make our concepts. I am increasingly of the opinion that the best way to test a new system is to recreate the concepts from the old (Archer-Paladins of Erastil, lightly armoured fighters, etc.) but without the archetypes we are told should be available (Hopefully there would ones to cover these builds), this becomes impossible.
Such archetypes should also help us mix up signature skills, though I do like the suggestion of a free signature skill to represent an individuals personal choices better.

[A Ninja Errant]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Damage die matters a lot in PF2. I'd thus expect to see plenty of Longswords (along with Battle Axes, Warhammers, and Tridents), and maybe more Guisarmes, Halberds, and Ranseurs than Glaives (though Glaive has very good properties, I'll grant).

I'll be interested to see if there's enough instances of Piercing being better than Slashing to make the versatile ability better than the battle axe's Sweep. In PF1 I feel like it rarely came up past early levels. I haven't really looked at the bestiary at all, anybody noticed if there's many monsters with Weakness to Piercing/Resistance overcome by Piercing?

I always liked the style of the halberd, but it was rare to find a build/idea that was workable with it. It'd be nifty if it does become a more solid option.

As for the Glaive, I wonder how Forceful and Deadly stack up against a pure damage bonus. From my reading, Forceful would equal the average damage of a higher die weapon, if you full attack and hit every time. It pulls ahead if you have some way of getting extra attacks, ie haste. So by itself, it's pretty clearly inferior to pure damage, but stuff like Furious Focus might help bring it up. Plus you've got Deadly for that extra crit bonus damage. I wonder how it interacts with Swipe?

Side note, I was very surprised that they didn't give the katana some level of Deadly or Fatal. I feel like that would be a perfect match for the traits people usually attribute to it.

[Culach]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

I mean, if we're carrying or dragging Bob the 200 lb Fighter...is that 20 Bulk or 40?

20, since people have handles in the shoulders, on the ankles. Also because "when in doubt, go with what benefits the party".

100% agreed on both "trained in 3 skills" is too few for martial classes and "signature skills are overly limiting."

Sorry if someone had already answered this,

On page 323:

Quote:

Petrified
You have been turned to stone. You can’t act and you have the blinded and deafened conditions. You become an object with a Bulk equal to twice your normal Bulk (typically 16 for a petrified Medium creature or 8 for a petrified Small creature)...

According to this Medium creatures are Bulk 8 and small are Bulk 4.

[DFAnton]

Now you have to ask whether it's saying 16 is doubled or normal :P

[CWheezy]

Hello, I saw some good spell nerfs, but I think Wish and Miracle are still dumb, but now even more dumb because they are free?

Note: saying they are level 10 spells are not an excuse, that just means PF2 goes to level 18 and pretends level 19 and 20 play is functional

Unless the spells are actually organized I wont look any harder (alphabetically and not by level??? wtf)

Color spray nerf is good, an aoe save or die is lame.

Simulacrum nerf: it no longer exists. This is a pretty good nerf, the spell was broken in concept.

Prismatic wall: this nerf is pretty good, playing around one used to be pretty dumb, but now you can actually maybe go through one!

[Arakhor]

CWheezy wrote:

Unless the spells are actually organized I wont look any harder (alphabetically and not by level??? wtf)

I know - it's shocking that it's been done that way ever since 3rd Edition debuted. Incredible, isn't it?

[Arachnofiend]

It occurs to me that I've never actually looked at the spell section in the CRB and have always used a site like PFSRD or AoN because sifting through hundreds of spells (if you told me the count was in the thousands by now I would believe you) is just completely non-functional.

[Deadmanwalking]

CWheezy wrote:

Hello, I saw some good spell nerfs, but I think Wish and Miracle are still dumb, but now even more dumb because they are free?

Note: saying they are level 10 spells are not an excuse, that just means PF2 goes to level 18 and pretends level 19 and 20 play is functional

You get one 10th level spell per day. At 20th level. If you have the right Feat. They're really pretty limited.

CWheezy wrote:

Unless the spells are actually organized I wont look any harder (alphabetically and not by level??? wtf)

It's...less than ideal. It's not a new edition change, though. They've always been organized like that. I believe even back to AD&D and the like.

CWheezy wrote:

Color spray nerf is good, an aoe save or die is lame.

At 1st level? Absolutely. I wouldn't object to higher level area save or die effects, but not one that's a 1st level spell.

CWheezy wrote:

Simulacrum nerf: it no longer exists. This is a pretty good nerf, the spell was broken in concept.

Some spells are left out of the playtest that will be included in the final version. Animate Dead is an example of this explicitly, and Simulacrum may be another.

Personally, I think making it clear that the loyalty of a Simulacrum is dubious combined with clarifying what spells they get could make it very workable. Though, strictly speaking, I suspect it'd be a Ritual rather than a spell per se.

CWheezy wrote:

Prismatic wall: this nerf is pretty good, playing around one used to be pretty dumb, but now you can actually maybe go through one!

You can? It still involves seven saves, several potentially fatal. The damage is a tad bit lower, but only a tad bit.

[Gavmania]

Arakhor wrote:

CWheezy wrote:

Unless the spells are actually organized I wont look any harder (alphabetically and not by level??? wtf)

I know - it's shocking that it's been done that way ever since 3rd Edition debuted. Incredible, isn't it?

I wouldn't mind that, but powers are included too. Makes finding a relevant spell difficult.

I'm also annoyed that power entries give no indication of who has access to them. I'm left wondering if it's a paladin power, a domain power, a bloodline power, a school power, an ancestry power or a bard power. Also, when I pick (say) a bloodline, I have to flip to a completely different part of the book to find out what my bloodline power does. Maybe it's because it's a playtest, but it's a bit annoying.

[Vidmaster 1st edition]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

CWheezy wrote:

Hello, I saw some good spell nerfs, but I think Wish and Miracle are still dumb, but now even more dumb because they are free?

Note: saying they are level 10 spells are not an excuse, that just means PF2 goes to level 18 and pretends level 19 and 20 play is functional

You get one 10th level spell per day. At 20th level. If you have the right Feat. They're really pretty limited.

CWheezy wrote:

Unless the spells are actually organized I wont look any harder (alphabetically and not by level??? wtf)

It's...less than ideal. It's not a new edition change, though. They've always been organized like that. I believe even back to AD&D and the like.

CWheezy wrote:

Color spray nerf is good, an aoe save or die is lame.

At 1st level? Absolutely. I wouldn't object to higher level area save or die effects, but not one that's a 1st level spell.

CWheezy wrote:

Simulacrum nerf: it no longer exists. This is a pretty good nerf, the spell was broken in concept.

Some spells are left out of the playtest that will be included in the final version. Animate Dead is an example of this explicitly, and Simulacrum may be another.

Personally, I think making it clear that the loyalty of a Simulacrum is dubious combined with clarifying what spells they get could make it very workable. Though, strictly speaking, I suspect it'd be a Ritual rather than a spell per se.

CWheezy wrote:

Prismatic wall: this nerf is pretty good, playing around one used to be pretty dumb, but now you can actually maybe go through one!

You can? It still involves seven saves, several potentially fatal. The damage is a tad bit lower, but only a tad bit.

I think in the 1st edition books they were by level.. but they had other problems.

[thejeff]

Vidmaster 1st edition wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

CWheezy wrote:

Unless the spells are actually organized I wont look any harder (alphabetically and not by level??? wtf)

It's...less than ideal. It's not a new edition change, though. They've always been organized like that. I believe even back to AD&D and the like.

I think in the 1st edition books they were by level.. but they had other problems.

Both editions of AD&D they were sorted by class and level, which has some advantages.

The big disadvantage though is that there's a lot of duplication - when multiple classes get a spell at different levels, you need an entry for each, even if it says "This spell is the same as the x level cleric spell".

[Vic Ferrari]

JulianW wrote:

Vic Ferrari wrote:

Someone else mentioned the katana, yeah, what is the point of its entry (talk about a waste of space)?

I love the fact a katana and a longsword have basically identical stats. Wield the one you think suits your character's background / personal style best without losing out.

I am fine with them having the same stats (like in 5th Ed), but why list the stats twice, why not list the stats, and then list the weapons associated with those stats: Longsword, Katana, Khandar, etc.

[Rysky]

Yeah I don't like that Powers/Supernatural abilities/Not-Spells are lumped in with Spells. Hopefully that's just for ease of access for the Playtest (like how each and every class reiterates what all feats your character gets over their 20 levels) and will be better organized come the final product.

[Xenocrat]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

CWheezy wrote:

Hello, I saw some good spell nerfs, but I think Wish and Miracle are still dumb, but now even more dumb because they are free?

Note: saying they are level 10 spells are not an excuse, that just means PF2 goes to level 18 and pretends level 19 and 20 play is functional

You get one 10th level spell per day. At 20th level. If you have the right Feat. They're really pretty limited.

A Wizard can use his drain Arcane Focus action on a 10th level spell, and as for specialists:

Arcane School wrote:

If you want to be a specialist wizard, choose one school of magic in which to specialize. You gain one additional

spell slot for each spell level you can cast, but you may use
these spell slots to prepare only spells from your arcane
school.

I can see skipping 10th level spells for most classes, but Wizards will find them more enticing, especially sine some of their other feats go off your highest available spell level and would get a boost from choosing 10ths.

[bugleyman]

DFAnton wrote:

Now you have to ask whether it's saying 16 is doubled or normal :P

It's pretty explicit that 16 is petrified (and therefore doubled). That said, the normal bulk of a humanoid needs to NOT be buried in the description of a condition (which I expect it won't be in the final release).

[AndIMustMask]

bugleyman wrote:

DFAnton wrote:

Now you have to ask whether it's saying 16 is doubled or normal :P

It's pretty explicit that 16 is petrified (and therefore doubled). That said, the normal bulk of a humanoid needs to NOT be buried in the description of a condition (which I expect it won't be in the final release).

here's hoping, yeah.

[Paradozen]

Grease got a stealth-buff. It also got some nerfs, but the ground version targets 4 contiguous squares not 1 10foot square, making it more versatile. You can throw it down a narrow corridor or snake it around a room, and it is easier to avoid allies. Doesn't work on most 2-handed weapons anymore though, a lot are 2 bulk, and the target isn't as likely to drop the object.