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From Stealth skill action (PAG 158)
[If you speak or make a deliberate loud noise, you become sensed. If you do anything else, you become seen just before you act. ***For instance, if you attack a creature you’re unseen by, that creature is not flatfooted against that attack.***
From page 302
Condition
UNSEEN
If a creature is unseen, you have no idea where it is. You don’t know what space it occupies, you’re flat-footed to it, and you can’t easily target
with attacks or targeted spells and affects.
So... whats the point? You stealth your way to get a flat-footed condition for a Sneak Attack, but by the moment you attack, the target is no longer F-footed (so the Stealth text says)? So whats that for. - But UNSEEN says you get to flat-foot the guy... I DON'T GET IT.
>>How do i Sneak attack during combat if stealth specifies that once im unseen and attack a target, hes no longer flat-footed BEFORE my attack?<<
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Unseen providing flatfooted only works when you have a constant effect providing unseen, such as invisibility, darkness or blindness.
Even from behind? I mean... its just silly to imagine 2 guys engaged in combat, i sneak BEHIND HIM, AT DISTANCE, BEHIND A TREE... i sidestep to shot an arrow and he instantly notices me like freaking spider-man danger sense mode.
Rogues and others with the dedication to rogues gain an ability to consider all characters who haven’t acted yet flatfooted. This obviously doesn’t work mid combat, but would work to start combat with a sneak attack.
See my post on stealth in the skills forum.
can you link to that?
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Rogue level 14 feat spring from the shadows may or may not help. Depends on how the rules interact exactly.
So.. i have to wait 14 levels for a feat that may or may not help. Thats ... awesome. Not. Thats not wat i want.
What i want is: Hide behind a something, step out and sneak attack. Or get in a "sniper position", behind the enemy or wharever and ranged-attack-sneak him.
Because it seems that the way is WRITTEN, i can be BEHIND the enemy and since hes not blind, in darknss or im invisible, he TOTALLY insta-notice me, behind him, the moment i step out of my bush :D and its not flat-footed anymore.
Am i missing something?
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can you link to that?Rogues and others with the dedication to rogues gain an ability to consider all characters who haven’t acted yet flatfooted. This obviously doesn’t work mid combat, but would work to start combat with a sneak attack.
See my post on stealth in the skills forum.
"Surprise Attack
On the first round of combat, creatures that haven’t acted are flat-footed to you."Page 119
It's doubly odd since Rogues get an ability that makes it so that they aren't flat footed to sensed and unseen targets. That's an irrelevant defense, isn't it?
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It's doubly odd since Rogues get an ability that makes it so that they aren't flat footed to sensed and unseen targets. That's an irrelevant defense, isn't it?
No, because something can still be unseen without relying on stealth.
Or the rogue could be blinded.This only applies very specifically to the use of the stealth skill to stay Unseen.
That said.. this does seem incredibly silly. Especially since they are keeping the name "Sneak Attack". If you Sneak up to make an attack... you do not gain the benefits of sneak attack. (unless the target has not acted in combat, in which case they are flat-footed, but the sneaking part then also becomes completely irrelevant)
There is also the Dread Striker rogue feat at 4th level that makes anyone who is frightened flat-footed to your attacks.
Which, when combined with the 1st level You're Next rogue feat, can lead to a nice chain of dead fools.
It's doubly odd since Rogues get an ability that makes it so that they aren't flat footed to sensed and unseen targets. That's an irrelevant defense, isn't it?No, because something can still be unseen without relying on stealth.
Or the rogue could be blinded.This only applies very specifically to the use of the stealth skill to stay Unseen.
That said.. this does seem incredibly silly. Especially since they are keeping the name "Sneak Attack". If you Sneak up to make an attack... you do not gain the benefits of sneak attack. (unless the target has not acted in combat, in which case they are flat-footed, but the sneaking part then also becomes completely irrelevant)
So sneak is just a movement ability? I guess not sneaky rogues are the expectation then. That's going to confuse some people for sure, particularly with that intimidate option easily accessible.
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That rule is kinda lame though. Rogue hiding in the middle of combat or that hides before combat start and then appears out of nowhere can't sneak attack anymore.
Other classes can't even surprise attack enemies for any sort of advantage. I'm fine with characters not being automatically flat-footed at the start since that could cause easy wipes if got a surprise round and high init before. But think attacking from concealment should definitely inflict flat-footed.
Quickly voicing agreement - not only is it contrary to what you would expect from sneak attack (even if we disregard sneak being in the name, which I'm not entirely), why in the world would you notice a ranged attack made in this way? I can almost see the case for melee, because sure, you're really close and maybe you didn't realize you smelled bad, or.... something??? But this also shuts down pretty much any sniper focus anyone might want, and I can't think of even a weak reason that should be.
(To clarify, I don't think that melee attacks should be denied FF when you break stealth to make an attack. The stealth should be broken after the attack and no sooner, regardless of attack type. It just seems especially absurd for a ranged build.)
Cruel Deceiver, the L7 Deception feat, lets you stay unseen while striking after making a diversion:
You’ve mastered the art of distracting your foes
to leave them exposed to your attack. When you Create a
Diversion, if you use a Strike action, you remain unseen until
after the end of the action, instead of becoming seen before
the action.
Also note that sneak attack no longer has a 30 ft range restriction, so you can just stay in a hidden spot and snipe from distance to proc sneak
EDIT: And as other people have indirectly pointed out, the rogue's surprise attack feature, plus stealth being an initiative roll vs. perception, means that the initiative system -itself- does the work of getting sneak at the start of encounters.
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Witch of Miracles: That's better than nothing, but I'm still of the opinion that stealth should be a viable option in and of itself. I'm glad deception is working hard, but I don't get why you can't stealth into a sneak attack. The spidey-sense line just doesn't make sense.