For the record, I actually mostly agree with the Alexandrian article and would cap people on Earth at level 4-6.
However, Golarion is not Earth, and much more powerful people than that clearly exist, making someone who would be extraordinary on Earth merely mediocre on Golarion as compared to the truly extraordinary people in that world. It's much like a superhero universe in that regard. People who are better then the best possible warrior on Earth (say, a 10th level Fighter) are still nowhere near world shaking or the best in the world on Golarion because there's that 20th level Fighter over there who has that honor.
That comparison of Golarion to a superhero universe is quite adequate, just look at the Marvel Universe where you see common folk alongside superheroes like Spider-Man, but there is even more powerful guys like Thor.
All that silly pseudo-comparative nonsense and what-have-you.Lame, and none of that has anything to do with a novel written decades before D&D (PF).What are you calling lame, my dude?
I think it is all kinda fun to think about and I think it is a jerk move to just call it lame out of hand even if you don't understand why other people find such conversations engaging.
Gandalf in the books cast fireball (in The Hobbit - he used pinecones as a physical missile - but it was fireball).
When the Fellowship reaches Moria - he has 'dozens' of spells memorized (if we are using D&D/Pathfinder as a guide - this matters)
"'I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs that was ever used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten score of them without searching in my mind"
Score is an old word that is shorthand for 20 - so he states plainly that he knows 200 spells he can cast currently.
He is many things - but as presented in the books - even hiding his real power - he is a Wizard without equal in Pathfinder terms.
Gandalf in the books cast fireball (in The Hobbit - he used pinecones as a physical missile - but it was fireball).
When the Fellowship reaches Moria - he has 'dozens' of spells memorized (if we are using D&D/Pathfinder as a guide - this matters)
"'I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs that was ever used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten score of them without searching in my mind"
Score is an old word that is shorthand for 20 - so he states plainly that he knows 200 spells he can cast currently.
Even in the Peter Jackson movie, which livened up the scene (YouTube: The Hobbit Warg Attack), the burning pinecones were still just burning pinecones. Pinecones don't burn as well as shown, so he probably used magic, but a 2nd-level Pyrotechnics spell would be enough.
Fireballs would have moved him up from 4th-level wizard to 5th-level wizard. Still not a Wizard without equal in Pathfinder.
And Gandalf was not a Vancian spellcaster, so "memorized" does not have the special meaning of a prepared spell in his vocabulary. In Pathfinder terms, it would mean that he had 200 spells in his spellbook, except that Tolkien wizards did not need spellbooks.
He is many things - but as presented in the books - even hiding his real power - he is a Wizard without equal in Pathfinder terms.
Gandalf is one of the strongest wizards in Middle Earth. But that is second best out of five wizards, with Saruman as best. Middle Earth is a low-magic setting.
Let's face it, Harry Potter as an advanced student at Hogwarts used 10 times as much magic as Gandalf.
Gandalf in the books cast fireball (in The Hobbit - he used pinecones as a physical missile - but it was fireball).
When the Fellowship reaches Moria - he has 'dozens' of spells memorized (if we are using D&D/Pathfinder as a guide - this matters)
"'I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs that was ever used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten score of them without searching in my mind"
Score is an old word that is shorthand for 20 - so he states plainly that he knows 200 spells he can cast currently.
Even in the Peter Jackson movie, which livened up the scene (YouTube: The Hobbit Warg Attack), the burning pinecones were still just burning pinecones. Pinecones don't burn as well as shown, so he probably used magic, but a 2nd-level Pyrotechnics spell would be enough.
Fireballs would have moved him up from 4th-level wizard to 5th-level wizard. Still not a Wizard without equal in Pathfinder.
And Gandalf was not a Vancian spellcaster, so "memorized" does not have the special meaning of a prepared spell in his vocabulary. In Pathfinder terms, it would mean that he had 200 spells in his spellbook, except that Tolkien wizards did not need spellbooks.
He is many things - but as presented in the books - even hiding his real power - he is a Wizard without equal in Pathfinder terms.Gandalf is one of the strongest wizards in Middle Earth. But that is second best out of five wizards, with Saruman as best. Middle Earth is a low-magic setting.
Let's face it, Harry Potter as an advanced student at Hogwarts used 10 times as much magic as Gandalf.
And more impressive too, in Harry Potter they have Fly and Teleport to mention a few of the best.
And Gandalf was not a Vancian spellcaster, so "memorized" does not have the special meaning of a prepared spell in his vocabulary. In Pathfinder terms, it would mean that he had 200 spells in his spellbook, except that Tolkien wizards did not need spellbooks.
Either it's a comparison or it's not - he cast spells for hours on end until asked what the word in Elivish for Friend is. He also used words of power to shut the door - which was powerful enough that when the Balrog tried to open the door the result was the door breaking.
He then solo'd a (in Pathfinder terms) level 20 demon.
There is no version of the story - in which he would be a level 4 or 5 wizard if converted. The earliest word of command is a level 7 spell. I'm pretty sure that when the rescued the Dwarves - he managed to do so from within a goblin city - solo, while being invisible (without a cloak) - it's amazing how much magic he actually used in the series but people look over - because Tolkien wasn't about making the 'magic' the hero - and so all of it's uses were minimized in narrative - to keep the focus on the characters.
A lesson that many GM's and players should consider.
And more impressive too, in Harry Potter they have Fly and Teleport to mention a few of the best.
WHICH CAN BE CAST BY CHILDREN!!!
This I feel is under appreciated. In HP setting, power is not just a function of Spells Known, but of magical potency. Natural raw power the individual possesses.Gandalf's power is not really comparable to D&D/Pathfinder as he is clearly using a completely different magic system that lack generally discernible spells.
If memory serves, the strongest use of magic that Gandalf uses is wehn he breaks the bridge to stop the Balrog, although it may be a very subtle use of a more powerful effect, say similar to forbiddance. One thing that I think is under appreciated is that JRRT generally kept Gandalf off screen for most of the action. He's not there for the Trolls, Storm Giants, Giant Spiders, the Dragon, the Ring Wraiths, Helm's Deep, the fight at the statutes (where Frodo splits from the group), the tunnel with all the ghosts. He is there for the siege of Minus Thirth, and is highly effective, single-handedly turning the tide of battle.
Remember this is a novel. The fact that the party always gets into trouble just as the high level NPC steps out makes sense, otherwise each encounter would be trivial.
Fireball has a 20 foot radius and bursts like a grenade. Gandalf's pinecones did no such thing, and while they caught the wolves on fire, they did not do a burst of instant damage like grenade would have.
Even if he did use a fireball though, that still only a 3rd level spell.
Also, we do not know that he was invisible. He might just be really good at sneaking, but if he was invisible, that is only a 2nd level spell (and notice how he did not remain unseen while attacking).
Next, we have no context for how difficult the Balrog is, and therefore, no idea what CR it is.
Sauron is probably a better caster than Gandalf.
Gandalf did not hide his true power. The power he kept secret was one of the elven rings of power.
Further, his being a maya is what made him a wizard. That is what allowed him to do magic on the level he did.
The only magic he did that I can not think of an equivelent 3.x spell for is when he broke the stone bridge.
But even so, I think one of the key points here js that magic in the world of lotr is subtle, not flashy. It is a magic of enforcing one's will on the very nature of the world. Tolkien talked about this in one of his letters.
Gandalf doing magic fires was more about altering fires that already had something to burn, hence why he made actual fireworks rather than just pointing his staff at the sky. It is also why when he killed a goblin with a flash, it left the smell of gunpowder, not ozone.
In terms of his spell knowledge, you could consider his knowledge as that of the Spell Mastery feat if you wanted. Even in 3.x, you can have a wizard with no spellbook. But as mentioned by others, lotr does not use 3.x's psuedo-vancian spellcasting.
(I say psuedo-vancian because it is not true vancian casting, which is from books written by Vance, hence vancian)
But Gandalf is a bard, why did this guy treat him like a wizard? He helped sing middle earth into existence, provided lore and morale more than anything else. He also has managed to have good relations with several typically hostile creatures including a reclusive Beorn and indifferent king of the Eagles. His knowledge of spells and language is also astounding.
Looking at the rest of the blog, it's about what I expected. He assumes real world high enders are optimized which is nonsense. He then moves from that proposition to one involving all in game high enders are optimized as well.
But Gandalf is a bard, why did this guy treat him like a wizard?
Because everyone who knows Gandalf on Middle Earth calls him a wizard. The power of names is strong. Also, he works with fire and fireworks, and fire is associated with wizards. Wizards are as strongly associated with ancient lore as bards are, and more associated with dusty scrolls in libraries. He wears a robe and a pointy hat, grew a long beard, and carries a magic staff, traditional garb of wizards, though he lacks the embroidered stars and moon symbols on his clothing.
He helped sing middle earth into existence, provided lore and morale more than anything else. He also has managed to have good relations with several typically hostile creatures including a reclusive Beorn and indifferent king of the Eagles. His knowledge of spells and language is also astounding.
We readers see Gandalf mostly through the eyes of hobbits and dwarves, who were ignorant of most of this until they traveled with Gandalf.
Looking at the rest of the blog, it's about what I expected. He assumes real world high enders are optimized which is nonsense. He then moves from that proposition to one involving all in game high enders are optimized as well.
That's The Alexandrian's blog (D&D: Calibrating Your Expectations), right? What does "high ender" mean? My first guess would be high-level character, but The Alexandrian is talking about 5th-level characters. Does it mean the highest level character in the local area? That is an interesting consideration. The low-level experienced blacksmith can handle difficult smithing because his attributes, skill ranks, and feats are all chosen to optimize smithing. But a real small town blacksmith would also need to handle animals for horseshoeing, would perhaps do some farming on the side, might also serve in the town militia, etc. He cannot focus 100% on being the best blacksmith possible.
But Gandalf is a bard, why did this guy treat him like a wizard?Because everyone who knows Gandalf on Middle Earth calls him a wizard. The power of names is strong. Also, he works with fire and fireworks, and fire is associated with wizards. Wizards are as strongly associated with ancient lore as bards are, and more associated with dusty scrolls in libraries. He wears a robe and a pointy hat, grew a long beard, and carries a magic staff, traditional garb of wizards, though he lacks the embroidered stars and moon symbols on his clothing.
He helped sing middle earth into existence, provided lore and morale more than anything else. He also has managed to have good relations with several typically hostile creatures including a reclusive Beorn and indifferent king of the Eagles. His knowledge of spells and language is also astounding.We readers see Gandalf mostly through the eyes of hobbits and dwarves, who were ignorant of most of this until they traveled with Gandalf.
Looking at the rest of the blog, it's about what I expected. He assumes real world high enders are optimized which is nonsense. He then moves from that proposition to one involving all in game high enders are optimized as well.That's The Alexandrian's blog (D&D: Calibrating Your Expectations), right? What does "high ender" mean? My first guess would be high-level character, but The Alexandrian is talking about 5th-level characters. Does it mean the highest level character in the local area? That is an interesting consideration. The low-level experienced blacksmith can handle difficult smithing because his attributes, skill ranks, and feats are all chosen to optimize smithing. But a real small town blacksmith would also need to handle animals for horseshoeing, would perhaps do some farming on the side, might also serve in the town militia, etc. He...
Gandalf is called a bunch of things throughout middle earth, wizard is one of them, but not the most common. Most describe his appearance. His appearance is patterned after Odin's wanderer guise. The wizard you're describing with the high brimless conical hat and celestial imagery is historically associated with sorcery, and seems to be derived from Cybele mystery cults and astrology. The astronomer in the movie "The Astronomer's Dream" wears this costume.
I'm not sure what to make of the "wizard association with fire" thing.
Sorry for not being cleaer, but you understood what I meant by high ender. I mean people at the top of their field in real life, or those in the top of their field in what he feels is the day to day normal in the 3.0 rule set. He didn't stat out Einstein as someone who filled many roles and produced a number of unrelated works, he statted him out as a specialist with a supernatural intelligence. Same with his blacksmith.