I don't have my hands on the hardcover yet and I'm really excited. For those of you who've seen the book, what are the coolest Archetypes and feats?
I am really fond of the Planar Heritage feat (sort of like Racial Heritage, but for native outsider ancestry).
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Really looking forward to seeing peoples' thoughts. ^_^
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There was one feat mentioned in the blog preview that looked so cool mechanically and so zainy/out there/fascinating in terms of flavor that my friend and I couldn't stop laughing (In a good way).
It's the one that gives you a slam attack but requires five ranks in knowledge (planes).
"The way he slammed me was so bizarre and powerful, I could tell he had learned to fight from beings on another world".
I'm confused, I'm horrified, I'm wetting myself with laughter, and at the same time it's the coolest thing I've ever heard. This is the Paizo I'm going to miss when 2nd edition comes around and I stay behind.
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I really like the Gloomblade (arch for fighters). Lose armor training (no big deal) and heavy armor prof (again not a big deal) for a blade you can create out of shadows that auto increases in +s and abilities. Weapon training changes to do things with your nifty shadow weapon.
Out of all the feats and arches, that is clearly my favorite.
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Excellent! I'm glad my efforts weren't in vain. ^_^
(The gloomblade fighter was one of my four archetypes, alongside the azatariel swashbuckler, the chronicler of worlds bard, and the dreamthief rogue.)
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I really like the Gloomblade (arch for fighters). Lose armor training (no big deal) and heavy armor prof (again not a big deal) for a blade you can create out of shadows that auto increases in +s and abilities. Weapon training changes to do things with your nifty shadow weapon.
Out of all the feats and arches, that is clearly my favorite.
Sweet. Sounds like it has a Magus feel, but without the complexity that spellcasting entails.
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Well, then as someone who appreciates comments on things I've written, I'll give a few more details on my thoughts of the Gloomblade.Excellent! I'm glad my efforts weren't in vain. ^_^
(The gloomblade fighter was one of my four archetypes, alongside the azatariel swashbuckler, the chronicler of worlds bard, and the dreamthief rogue.)
- I like how the ability enhancements to the weapon are separate from the +s of the weapon. I don't have to give up a +1 to gain flaming, for example. Although it would have been cool to have that option to gain more abilities instead of +s...but I can understand from a design stand point why it would have been too complicated.
- Speaking of the ability enhancements, I would have preferred you to just say "Can add any +1 ability of your choice that is suitable for the weapon created." instead of listing the specific abilities that can be added. There's always cool ones you find in books that you would love to add.
You added the line "Additional special abilities might qualify, at the GM's discretion." Only problem is, this is basically implied for home games and ignored for PFS.
- There is a bit of confusion for me about two weapon creating and abilities. It appears that the gloomblade can't gain abilities to her weapons if she creates two until 15th level? Is that correct? It says this:
If a gloomblade creates only one weapon, it gains a weapon special ability of his choice (chosen upon creation);
If a gloomblade creates only one shadow weapon, it gains additional weapon special abilities; the total effective bonus of these abilities cannot exceed +3.
It appears that if I do a dual wield gloomblade, They only gain abilities at level 15.At 15th level, a gloomblade’s shadow weapons each gain magic weapon special abilities with a total effective bonus of +2 per weapon.
- One thing I did miss was: you don't just lose heavy armor prof and armor training, you also lose shields. Slightly annoying if you wanted to create a one handed weapon. Certainly not a deal breaker, however.
- Shadow weapon training feels a bit of a letdown (but that could also be comparing it to the overall good job you did with the Shadow Weapon itself). Out of the 4 options you gave, I only see one that would be used with any consistency (the first, I won't give it away in case it's against the rules). Personally, I think a bit more to do with altering the weapon itself would have been better, but through techniques or understanding instead of enhancements. Could be something like:
The shadow weapon gains +1 to the critical threat range of the base weapon (this does not stack with any other type of critical threat range increase other than itself).
The gloomblade gains the increased base weapon damage of the warpriest’s sacred weapon ability at her gloomblade level. Each additional time this ability is taken, add +4 to the gloomblade's level for determining the base damage.
The gloomblade gains the ability to change the weapon enhancements on her shadow weapon once per day as a swift action. Each additional time this ability is taken, the gloomblade gains an additional use of this ability.
Choose an element (fire, cold, acid, electricity). The base damage of the shadow weapon changes from physical damage to the chosen element. If the gloomblade attacks a creature with vulnerability to the chosen element, she gains a +2 to strike that creature. If this ability is selected more than once, the gloomblade may chose a second element and may switch between those elements as a swift action. This ability may only be selected two times.
(some multiclass options would have been cool, such as:)
The gloomblade gains the Spell Strike ability of the Magus, but only when using her shadow weapon. She may use any spells you can cast from any class, but she may not use scrolls with this ability.
The gloomblade gains the Ascetic Style feat, but it can only be used with her shadow weapon and must still meet all prerequisites of the feat. If she selects this ability a 2nd time she gains the Ascetic Form feat, but only with her shadow blade. If she selects this ability a 3rd time, she gains the Ascetic Strike feat, but only with her shadow blade.I don't think the options you added were bad, as I said, they just felt a bit underwhelming when compared to how good you did with the shadow blade itself.
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Speaking of the ability enhancements, I would have preferred you to just say "Can add any +1 ability of your choice that is suitable for the weapon created." instead of listing the specific abilities that can be added. There's always cool ones you find in books that you would love to add.
You added the line "Additional special abilities might qualify, at the GM's discretion." Only problem is, this is basically implied for home games and ignored for PFS.
One thing I should add is: I do understand that abilities like Bane can be abused heavily with the wording I gave. However, that can easily be mitigated with a line such as "Weapon abilities that require you to make a choice (such as Bane) may not be selected."
Otherwise, eagerly awaiting your thoughts, Isabelle Lee.
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Excellent! I'm glad my efforts weren't in vain. ^_^
(The gloomblade fighter was one of my four archetypes, alongside the azatariel swashbuckler, the chronicler of worlds bard, and the dreamthief rogue.)
Ah, so we have Isabelle to thank for the single greatest skill monkey in the game, the Chronicler of Worlds - Int-based Bard that still gets 6 skill points per level, and receives an even better version of Versatile Performance (all applicable skills are tied only to Linguistics, instead of needing to invest ranks in multiple Performances). I'm honestly surprised it took us this long to get a Bard that uses Int instead of Cha; the Archivist always felt like it should have been int-based. The Gloomblade is also one of my favorites :)
@Shalandar: I didn't see anything wrong with giving a finite list of applicable magic properties you can add to your Shadow Weapon - since Planar Adventures is virtually the last Rules book for PF1, we're not likely to run into the problem of "oh, that property could be a cool addition for my Shadow Weapon, but it's from a later book than PA, so I'll never know if it was considered balanced enough to be included in their list". With a finite list, the designers were able to control the power level of the ability, minimizing players from exploiting some unforeseen combination. The ability to summon 2 magical weapons - or even one (that exist without a duration, I might add) - creates a huge power spike in the form of wealth-by-level - an obstacle never before circumvented by a Fighter, by the way, so having a finite list of properties, as well as losing shield proficiency shouldn't be seen as a loss - Archetypes are a balancing act. Anyway, it's a Fighter - you have a feat to spare to pick back up Shield Proficiency! Also, how were you unimpressed by the Shadow Weapon Training? It's Weapon Training (already a great ability) for EVERY CONCEIVABLE MELEE WEAPON, so long as you're proficient, PLUS a list of bonus abilities you can grant your weapons!
So, yes, a normal Fighter can have a better weapon with more niche magical properties than a Gloomblade, but at what cost? Well, by level 10, it's not unreasonable for a dedicated melee character to have a +3 (or equivalent) weapon, which would account for about 1/3 of his wealth by level. If you're Two-weapon Fighting? you're either using substantially worse weapons, or you've spent EVEN MORE money. So, at that cost. The Gloomblade is free to spend that money elsewhere, while having only slightly-below-the-mark weapons, but those weapons can literally be ANYTHING. "I need reach for this fight; bam, my +2 weapon is a Glaive (plus another 5' of reach if I so choose)." "This enemy has DR/slashing; bam, my +2 weapon is a Greatsword." "I'm gonna utilize my TWF feat for this combat; bam, my two +1 weapons are Shortswords." A normal fighter would be spending a LOT of gold to keep up with that versatility, and meanwhile, he wouldn't be getting the full benefit of his Weapon Training with each weapon choice. Maybe Isabelle will have something more constructive to say about your criticism, but to me, it seems like you're just upset that the archetype isn't overpowered.
Cuup,
I'm sorry if it came off that I wanted it over powered. And I wasn't b#~~&ing. I was merely commenting on the archetype. If I came off that way, I apologize.
In fact, as I said, I think the shadow weapon is very good. I might have done things a bit differently, but I said numerous times the shadow weapon is good.
One thing that I think was a difference for me, is that I didn't think about the idea of changing the weapon out as needed. I was thinking of it more like "Summon it to start the day, and you use it all day long." Too often, you take feats specific to a weapon (such as Weapon Focus) so I didn't think about the idea of changing out the weapon for versatility.
The part that I felt was lacking, was choices for extra abilities for the Shadow Weapon Training. That's all.
I see - sorry, I may have read your post with a more antagonistic voice in my head than was intended. That is true about Weapon Focus/Specialization feats - I hadn't considered that. Mostly because my group uses a modified version of Weapon Focus that mitigates problems like these. Still, you'd need to take the feat multiple times to keep as versatile as I outlined, so I guess the point still stands. I guess you'd have your main favored Shadow Weapon, but still be able to manifest a less specialized weapon in a pinch.
I made a 9th-level Gloomblade for fun, and what class is better suited for utilizing the Variant Multiclassing rules than a Fighter? So, I VMC'ed into Inquisitor, which would actually be very good at filling in the Weapon Focus/Specialization gap with Judgments.
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Azatariel, Dreamthief, Gloomblade are all amazing.
I really like the feel of the Soul Warden, though it still feels like a downgrade in more ways than I'd like - a familiar's charisma is not enough for the aura to be relevant.
That said, the Soul Warden's innate "You can switch to this archetype by helping your phantom move on" is the coolest thing. I loved the archetypes for 'fallen' classes, and this is even cooler!
I haven't given the feats a full readthrough yet but the First World conduit feat caught my eye. Full of flavour, heinous shenanigans and a legit method to deal with enemy mages!
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Ah, so we have Isabelle to thank for the single greatest skill monkey in the game, the Chronicler of Worlds - Int-based Bard that still gets 6 skill points per level, and receives an even better version of Versatile Performance (all applicable skills are tied only to Linguistics, instead of needing to invest ranks in multiple Performances). I'm honestly surprised it took us this long to get a Bard that uses Int instead of Cha; the Archivist always felt like it should have been int-based.Excellent! I'm glad my efforts weren't in vain. ^_^
(The gloomblade fighter was one of my four archetypes, alongside the azatariel swashbuckler, the chronicler of worlds bard, and the dreamthief rogue.)
Oh look, now I'm excited. :D
Gloomblade's ability to swap between different weapons also sounds interesting, though I'd need to play around with builds to figure out how best to use that flexibility.
What are the gist of the Azatariel and Dreamthief?
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The Azatariel is a swashbuckler that emphasises the charisma aspect. It trades a lot of the standard deeds for the ability to weave in and out of battle, provoke a bunch of AoOs and then redirect those attacks. Best archetype in the book.
You lose precise strike, but get monk-tier mobility and eventually, pounce. It's an amazing 3-level dip and such a juicy archetype that I wouldn't mind playing one standalone.
The Dreamthief is a rogue that trades out sneak attack for a phantom's emotional focus. You even get a slam attack (!!), and get to poke around in peoples' heads.
Almost all the archetypes in the book are a hit on flavour.
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Minor clarification: dreamthief doesn't actually gain a slam attack. (You'll need to tap into the Abyss for that!) Instead, it lets you treat one melee attack per round as a slam attack for the purpose of emotional focus abilities that only apply to slam attacks. Fun with technicality! ^_^
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Sounds like an excellent use of technicality - lets the Dreamthief use the slam abilities AND be flexible about weapon style while doing so. My main disappointment with the Id Rager Bloodrager was that it couldn't use the abilities tied to a slam attack unless you somehow got one from elsewhere.
Though if Planar Adventures comes with a relatively easy way to get a slam attack (cost one feat) it would make me more interested in the Id Rager.
My worries with the Azatariel is that a lot of it's abilities cost 2 points.
They lose consistent damage and they lose AC. For a character that has abilities around getting attacked. AC keeps you from dying.
They don't get more aoo in a turn or new wheys to regain points. So they can't use parry and riposte more than normal.
I Like what it can do a lot and will ask my gm if a swashbuckler can get most of the archetype stuff for free.
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The Gloomblade and Dreamthief were also the archetypes that stood out to me, and have both made my shortlist for Hell's Vengeance character ideas.
(Although I'm sad there was no feat to let me Reaper it up and summon loaded firearms as a move/free action.)
What's the cleric archetype like? How about alchemist?
I like some of the new conduit feats:
1. allow dimension door
2. cast freedom each day
3. my gm loves the tail feats
a couple feats seem very situational or useless
1. Healer's hands seems to waste a feat for a spell
2. tempting bargain ? Why ?
3. improved plane shift wastes a feat
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Healer's Hands is primarily a buff for the Heal skill, which was always wildly outclassed by actual spells. I did what I could for it. ^_^
As for Tempting Bargain, there was interesting and trope-heavy design space there. So I filled it.
Improved Plane Shift was mandated by development, so I can't offer as much insight there.
i love the idealist cleric, it stacks with herald caller,
so i can bring Hell and its denizens to the material plane, MUHAHAHAHA
I love most archetypes in there especially the Dreamthief. I only have 1 question in regards to it: How does it work with the Unchained Rogue and Debilitating Injury?
Everything else is easily swapped out but DI just sits there and does nothing due to the lack of Sneak Attack.
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Healer's Hands is crazy - hardly a waste of a feat.
With the Heal skill unlock, at 5th level onwards, one becomes able to heal 3*level HP AND 2 points of ability damage as a full round action for nearly no cost. This can be repeated 5+ times per day.
At 10th level, with this feat and the skill unlock, we are looking at 5* level + 4 points of ability damage as a full round action. that is better than anything but the Heal Spell or extended Greater Path of Glory.
If I ever play a rogue, I will 100% be grabbing this feat. Even if I'm not playing one, it'll be on the radar.
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The unchained rogue occasionally creates complications with rogue archetypes. I can't go into much detail here for professional reasons, but almost everything changes in development, for a wide variety of reasons. But you're right that unchained rogues are left with a loose end, and if there's one thing rogues dislike, it's loose ends.
Someone in the thread suggested having it apply as part of the dreamstrike; I'd probably expand that to "if you dreamstrike a creature that you're flanking or who is flat-footed against you, apply debilitating injury as though you had made a successful sneak attack". Just an (unofficial) idea. ^_^
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Gloomblade for me... since it offers a LOT of versatility in terms of weapons :)
Ok, so you might not be able to form ranged weapons, but you can form thrown weapons ;)
While I really like the Gloomblade it lacks one thing for me: The ability to treat your Shadow Weapons as a Weapon Group with Shadow Weapon Training.
This would open up Advanced Weapon Training which is a pretty big thing even if you can only get it via the Advanced Weapon Training feat.
As it wouldn't have it's own rules the Versatile Weapon Training would be limited to Bluff and Intimidate. The only thing I see that could be an issue would be the Fighter's Finesse option and finesse-ing everything.
It's just a shame that great things from splatbooks, like advanced weapon and armor training, can't really get carried forth into hardcovers unless reprinted in their entirety.
While I really like the Gloomblade it lacks one thing for me: The ability to treat your Shadow Weapons as a Weapon Group with Shadow Weapon Training.
Hmmm... the features says that it alters Weapon Training, as opposed to "replace".
Then again, how would balance it? It would sound like Shadow Weapon Training replaces every single other training feature, as if you meet every melee weapon training requirement.
i love the idealist cleric,
I'll have to reserve judgement till I see it....
Whenever I see a new cleric archetype released, my heart goes, "Excellent!", but my head goes, "Ugggghhh, let me guess, poor design with unbalanced trade outs?"
i love the idealist cleric,I'll have to reserve judgement till I see it....
Whenever I see a new cleric archetype released, my heart goes, "Excellent!", but my head goes, "Ugggghhh, let me guess, poor design with unbalanced trade outs?"
While I really like the Gloomblade it lacks one thing for me: The ability to treat your Shadow Weapons as a Weapon Group with Shadow Weapon Training.Hmmm... the features says that it alters Weapon Training, as opposed to "replace".
Then again, how would balance it? It would sound like Shadow Weapon Training replaces every single other training feature, as if you meet every melee weapon training requirement.
I know it only alters but it doesn't define it as a weapon group. As such anything that simply requires you to have Weapon Training should work but if it wants your to have Weapon Training in a weapon group it wouldn't. As such I think you could grab the Advanced Weapon Training feat, since you have the Weapon Training class feature, it simply won't do anything because you don't have a weapon group it can apply to.
As for balance, I think that won't really be an issue. Most Fighters would dedicate themselves to one or two groups anyway.
There are two exception though. The first is the finesse thing I mentioned above, though I think that issue more flavor than mechanical.
The real problem would come from Weapon Sacrifice. Sacrificing a costless weapon that you can replace with a move action in order to save yourself or an ally from being knocked out might be a bit too much.
I know it only alters but it doesn't define it as a weapon group. As such anything that simply requires you to have Weapon Training should work but if it wants your to have Weapon Training in a weapon group it wouldn't. As such I think you could grab the Advanced Weapon Training feat, since you have the Weapon Training class feature, it simply won't do anything because you don't have a weapon group it can apply to.
Eh, I dunno about RAW, but I read it as you effectively have Weapon Group (shadow weapons).
Not sure how defensible that is, but it does say you don't select additional weapon groups, which kinda implies you have one? I'm aware that's a pretty pedantic argument.
In any case, as you said, the only thing that feels problematic with that is abusing Weapon Sacrifice, so outside of PFS it's probably no big deal.
Eh, I dunno about RAW, but I read it as you effectively have Weapon Group (shadow weapons).
Not sure how defensible that is, but it does say you don't select additional weapon groups, which kinda implies you have one? I'm aware that's a pretty pedantic argument.
In any case, as you said, the only thing that feels problematic with that is abusing Weapon Sacrifice, so outside of PFS it's probably no big deal.
I guess the issue comes from the very first sentence in that class feature.
At 5th level, a gloomblade gains weapon training, except that he does not select a weapon group; instead, the bonus applies to the shadow weapons he creates.
You could read that in two way I think.
1: You don't select a weapon group, it is selected for you. Namely Shadow Weapons.2: You simply don't select a weapon group, meaning you don't get any. The weapon training bonus applying to Shadow Weapons is a replacement for that.
So I guess the intention is quite interesting here and not just the wording.
But I agree, many GMs will probably be fine with combining it as long as you don't go Weapon Sacrifice and possibly Fighter's Finesse.
I'm still reading through everything....but so far Planar Infusion is one of my big scores (it solves the Hellfire dilemma I was having with my Kinetics), and I'm really liking the look of Gloomblade.
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I really like Wind Leaper Its finally a way of jump scaling into the late game. I am building a speed optimized character and I am looking forward to jumping 30 ft straight up :)
I guess the issue comes from the very first sentence in that class feature.
At 5th level, a gloomblade gains weapon training, except that he does not select a weapon group; instead, the bonus applies to the shadow weapons he creates.You could read that in two way I think.
1: You don't select a weapon group, it is selected for you. Namely Shadow Weapons.
2: You simply don't select a weapon group, meaning you don't get any. The weapon training bonus applying to Shadow Weapons is a replacement for that.
So I guess the intention is quite interesting here and not just the wording.But I agree, many GMs will probably be fine with combining it as long as you don't go Weapon Sacrifice and possibly Fighter's Finesse.
Well, further back, it does state that he can form any melee weapon which he is proficient with. It even includes melee weapons that can be thrown, but not thrown weapons that can only be thrown.
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I'm still reading through everything....but so far Planar Infusion is one of my big scores (it solves the Hellfire dilemma I was having with my Kinetics), and I'm really liking the look of Gloomblade.
Planar Infusion is sort of like a heavily nerfed Deific/Celestial/Demonic Obedience, except planar rather than deity themed. I don't dislike it, but by comparison it's weaker if more accessible.
Excellent! I'm glad my efforts weren't in vain. ^_^
(The gloomblade fighter was one of my four archetypes, alongside the azatariel swashbuckler, the chronicler of worlds bard, and the dreamthief rogue.)
These were all excellent.
]Ah, so we have Isabelle to thank for the single greatest skill monkey in the game, the Chronicler of Worlds - Int-based Bard that still gets 6 skill points per level, and receives an even better version of Versatile Performance (all applicable skills are tied only to Linguistics, instead of needing to invest ranks in multiple Performances).
Yes, but the change to Bardic Knowledge reins this in considerably. You're going to be worse than a normal bard at specialist skills at higher levels, even if you can cover more skills.
Isabelle, maybe you can answer these since I can't tell from the text: would the Gloomblade be able to make use of Gloves of Dueling to increase Shadow Weapon Training, and would he be able to select AWT options at 9th, 13th, and 17th? I'm not sure of either RAW or RAI.
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Yes and no, respectively. ^_^
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Ah, so we have Isabelle to thank for the single greatest skill monkey in the game, the Chronicler of Worlds - Int-based Bard that still gets 6 skill points per level, and receives an even better version of Versatile Performance (all applicable skills are tied only to Linguistics, instead of needing to invest ranks in multiple Performances).Yes, but the change to Bardic Knowledge reins this in considerably. You're going to be worse than a normal bard at specialist skills at higher levels, even if you can cover more skills.
This is why I said Skill Monkey, not Knowledge Monkey, or Specialized Skill user. The loss of Bardic knowledge does hurt, but not by as much as you'd think, since your Int is now way more important - getting the same bonus to your Knowledges from your high Int as a mid-level Bard would from Bardic knowledge. So, yes, a standard Bard who invested in Int and made sure to max out a Knowledge or two would certainly be better at those Knowledges than a Chronicler of Worlds (and even then, the Chronicler of Worlds' ability to take a 20 on Knowledge (Planes) so many times per day would still trump a standard, Knowledge (Planes)-dedicated Bard), but they'd never have the sheer wealth of skill ranks as one.
Here it is
Oh well.... the last PF1 cleric archetype ends as predicted.... terrible/pointless
Gains some spont casting of a few spells that clerics can 95% prepare anyway.....
Trades out channelling....which granted I dont like anyway, but does at least provide good out of combat healing..... for basically a minor boost on intimidate.
The ultimate PF riddle...... what is it with Paizo and cleric archetypes eh?!
All those years ago, I should have offered my services for free in order to get some half decent ones out there!
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Here it isOh well.... the last PF1 cleric archetype ends as predicted.... terrible/pointless
Gains some spont casting of a few spells that clerics can 95% prepare anyway.....
Trades out channelling....which granted I dont like anyway, but does at least provide good out of combat healing..... for basically a minor boost on intimidate.
The ultimate PF riddle...... what is it with Paizo and cleric archetypes eh?!
All those years ago, I should have offered my services for free in order to get some half decent ones out there!
I suggest reading the rules on planar traits before dismissing the archetype.
Let's take a look at a Cleric of Iomedae as a really simple example. Heaven has the Strongly Aligned trait for Law and Good, AND Enhanced Magic for Law and Good.
What this means is, when you channel your realm, all good-aligned spells get +2 to CL. ...but that's not all! Any chaotic or evil aligned creatures suffer a -2 penalty to their will saves from the strong alignment.
Additionally, well, your realm is heaven. Enjoy ready access to Holy Word.
If your deity is Shelyn or Sarenrae, you lose the bonus against chaotic foes, but you now have Holy Smite and Protection from Evil ready to spontaneously cast - and frankly, Protection from Evil is a really welcome spell to have spontaneous.
This archetype actually lets you go evocation with alignment spells, and I like that. Combo it with the Blissful Spell metamagic (even better, get a rod), and this means you can pump a spell's CL when you need to by making it good aligned - AND add on rider effects.
Plus, invoke realm works with Quick Channel so you can set it up as a move. It takes a few levels to be worth it but it's really good if you're creative.
EDIT:
Now I'm wondering how much idea sharing was involved with the alignment metamagic. Those are deceptively good, and have a lot of subtle interactions.