First off new to the forums if this isn't the place please tell me where to post this.
My group is currently playing through Wrath of the Righteous though this has nothing to do with the campaigns story. Though it will be the guide for what my max power level will be at the end. I was curious is there anything special you have to do to permanently kill an empyreal lord. I understand they are in the mid 20s to low 30s for cr. Though should I manage to win a fight against one I don't want it coming back for round 2. I am playing a witch killer who is currently level 10 mythic 3. This has recently become a goal of mine.
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It strongly depends on which Empyreal lord.
Also I'm curious why a character participating in Wrath of the Righteous (ostensibly good characters) want to kill an Empyreal lord, a good "deity". I mean they're not as strong as true gods...if you're just wanting to show you're powerful...I mean I guess.
Ultimately, you need to be prepared to fight every ally the empyreal lord has, on his home plane.
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How do you kill an empyreal lord? That’s easy. Just mention how powerful it is on the forums. In under 100 posts, you’ll have NPCs that are one-shotting it.
A lot depends on how the GM decides to run it. XD I agree that they should probably have a lot of allies, though - and functionally unlimited use of things like divination magic to know when threats are coming so they can prepare accordingly. Unless they're the most well-prepared thing you've ever fought, probably with at least one friendly deity providing active support, your GM is probably softballing it. (And I mean seriously well-prepared, with smart use of every strategy they've got. None of this 'stand still and let you hit them' stuff.)
Within their realms, they mostly don't have any unique "unkillable" stuff aside from the Mythic powers they get for being at home. ...Which pretty much means you have to Coup de Grace or Crit them with something that qualifies as an artifact in order to get the death to stick. The easiest way to do that is to take the Legendary Item ability at least twice and make your weapon into one. And even then, you have to deal with the fact that they may know things like Mythic Mage's Disjunction and have a good chance of outright shattering the thing you brought to kill them. XD
Part of what makes the empyreal lord's (EL) strong is that they are (mostly) united. If there's a dangerous threat to one, the others will send help or possibly come themselves. To get around this an angel-killer will need to be really fast and really sneaky. This doesn't just apply to the actual combat with the EL, but when you're plotting your attack and stuff. If the EL gets wind that you're coming to murder it they will take actions to stop you, which could eliminate you entirely.
The specific Empyreal Lord is Tanagaar. My motivation is pure revenge against our paladin who worships him. The "Good" aligned party members I feel have crossed too many lines without falling from grace with the latest evil act being the final straw. Since those gods are not doing their job they need to be dealt with. I do not want to derail the campaign so this is all plans for when the campaign is over and the characters have gone their separate ways.
Alright I will look into taking the legendary item ability. Hopefully playing a sneaky type will help in the long run.
Think you can tell us what acts the Paladin has done that should have caused him to fall? I'm curious, and I forget what Tanagaar's portfollio is.
Tanagaar, the Aurulent Eye, LG archon Empyreal Lord of Night, Owls, and Watchfulness. There's not a lot more published about him. XD
Of course, it's also possible that the Empyreal Lord is simply biding his time for a lesson. There's also [Spoiler], a good time for any questionable acts to be called out and for players to put up or shut up. XD Just waiting it out might be easiest.
That said, going for revenge against an Empyreal Lord who probably helps many people in many places because you don't like one person seems like exactly the sort of situation where other celestials are likely to intervene. XD Unlike the fiendish lords, the celestials actively help and support each other, even when they disagree on some things. Depending on how your GM chooses to run the situation, of course.
But, uh, I wouldn't expect it before Level 20/Tier 10 if it's gonna happen at all. At that point, your problem may have already solved itself.
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How would you get him to stay dead if you could kill him? Another Empyreal lord would probably just use true resurrection.
Thaaaaat is true. XD As outsiders with stats, Emypreal Lords are completely valid targets of True Resurrection, and the caster doesn't even need body parts on hand.
Brolof wrote: Think you can tell us what acts the Paladin has done that should have caused him to fall? Just the big ones I can recall off the top of my head are
- chased down and murdered a fleeing army of slaves
- pretty much a slap on the wrist for crusaders rounding up and murdering teiflings
- continual racism against teiflings (i am playing a teifling)
- forcing a friendly evil npc to choose between death or brainwashing (forced alignment shift)
That last one was the one that has pushed me over the edge. Recently one of our "Good" characters cast suffocation on me and the only reason I didn't die was the npc saved me.
currently our party sits at
LE witch slayer teifling (me)
LG Paladin of Tanagaar
N? Ranger (murder hobo agrees with paladin on everything)
N? Bard (sides with other two min maxed to be a walking lie detector)
CN Druid (agrees with me regularly not a yes man like the others)
We also had a N? G wizard that quit the group the session before after trying to kill me for killing a possessed npc to get the demon out. Our party has multiple forms of resurrection.
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This sounds more like a personal vendetta against the Paladin player, than an actually problem with his deity.
You should be talking to your GM about what they've allowed the player to do without repercussions and how you feel about it.
Based on what I'm hearing and seeing here you sound like a jilted player, and even if you attempted this it would be more likely to result in the death of your character (with the support of the GM) rather than what you want to accomplish.
Your story comes off very one sided, and my experience in such instances is that there is usually far more to the tale.
Bring up your issues (outside of the game time) to the GM and question them on why PVP is being allowed and why a deity isn't punishing a misbehaving representative.
I will tell you, that even with a mystic character if I were your GM (and not taking into account anything to do with the party) I would tell you that you're not going to permanently kill an Empyreal lord, and that you would likely die in the attempt due to a well prepared defense by the EL and having a home turf advantage. I'm just not into deicide. Not even in mythic games.
Oh I am totally seeking revenge against this paladin I wasn't trying to hide that. Though I feel the revenge is best sought but dealing with his unjust god. Sorry if it came off some other way. Revenge is the motivation but killing the EL is the goal. I have had multiple discussions with the GM on this topic of what is passing for "good" acts in this campaign and it has gone nowhere. I intend this all for after the campaign and the characters have gone their separate ways. Even if its not permanent I would like to knock that EL down a peg.
I understand you are not into killing gods but that just sounds awesome to me. Gods are just ultimate bosses to me. Look at God of War its a game about killing gods.
You have a problem player, talk to the GM.
That Paladin should have fallen long ago.
Also, why are you still playing with these a%~#&*@s?
You obviously have some GM BS going on, and more BS in general. Really just save your energy to go find a different group that isn't made up of rumpweavils.
Deven Smith wrote: Oh I am totally seeking revenge against this paladin I wasn't trying to hide that. Though I feel the revenge is best sought but dealing with his unjust god. Sorry if it came off some other way. Revenge is the motivation but killing the EL is the goal. I have had multiple discussions with the GM on this topic of what is passing for "good" acts in this campaign and it has gone nowhere. I intend this all for after the campaign and the characters have gone their separate ways. Even if its not permanent I would like to knock that EL down a peg.
I understand you are not into killing gods but that just sounds awesome to me. Gods are just ultimate bosses to me. Look at God of War its a game about killing gods.
Sorry, I was unclear.
This is a personal problem between you and the other player (of the paladin). It sounds like it has little to do with your character, or their character, or the deity and is a personal issue.
Personal issues are best resolved out of game space.
This seems like a game issue to me I am actually good friends with the people in the group we just disagree on morals. Being a game issue I am seeking a solution in game. So I am seeking revenge in game for a issue in game. I am against PVP it just hurts groups in general and is almost never warranted. This should all wrap up after the story is finished.
I think another issue is since we are playing wrath of the righteous I approached it as a morality based campaign where the rest of the group approached it as they are the good guys vs the obviously evil guys.
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Andostre wrote: With kindness. Well that took me way too long to get. I read this yesterday and was wondering if you started a sentence and didn't finish it and was just going to edit your post.
Forget round 2. If you, an evil spawn of an evil outsider, try to take out an Empyreal Lord, Ragathiel is going to waste you.
As for the rest of it; what I'm seeing is one player who wants to play a very different game from the rest of the group. To the point of playing an evil character in the adventure path designed for Paladins. If there's a problem player in this scenario I don't think it's the paladin.
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Sheahan wrote: Forget round 2. If you, an evil spawn of an evil outsider, try to take out an Empyreal Lord, Ragathiel is going to waste you.
As for the rest of it; what I'm seeing is one player who wants to play a very different game from the rest of the group. To the point of playing an evil character in the adventure path designed for Paladins. If there's a problem player in this scenario I don't think it's the paladin.
Eh, it sounds like the Paladin should have fallen a long time ago.
It sounds like a poopshow of a game all over. Problematic GM, Problematic players, and the like.
Mystic_Snowfang wrote: Sheahan wrote: Forget round 2. If you, an evil spawn of an evil outsider, try to take out an Empyreal Lord, Ragathiel is going to waste you.
As for the rest of it; what I'm seeing is one player who wants to play a very different game from the rest of the group. To the point of playing an evil character in the adventure path designed for Paladins. If there's a problem player in this scenario I don't think it's the paladin.
Eh, it sounds like the Paladin should have fallen a long time ago.
It sounds like a poopshow of a game all over. Problematic GM, Problematic players, and the like. Oh, it's quite possible the paladin would have fallen in one of my games, although my experience with WotR suggests there's context that's being left out or misconstrued. That doesn't really matter though. If the group wants to play a certain way and one player wants to go a different way and can't fit in, that player is a problem for that group.
Sheahan wrote: Mystic_Snowfang wrote: Sheahan wrote: Forget round 2. If you, an evil spawn of an evil outsider, try to take out an Empyreal Lord, Ragathiel is going to waste you.
As for the rest of it; what I'm seeing is one player who wants to play a very different game from the rest of the group. To the point of playing an evil character in the adventure path designed for Paladins. If there's a problem player in this scenario I don't think it's the paladin.
Eh, it sounds like the Paladin should have fallen a long time ago.
It sounds like a poopshow of a game all over. Problematic GM, Problematic players, and the like. Oh, it's quite possible the paladin would have fallen in one of my games, although my experience with WotR suggests there's context that's being left out or misconstrued. That doesn't really matter though. If the group wants to play a certain way and one player wants to go a different way and can't fit in, that player is a problem for that group. True, though the first one seems flat-out evil. Fleeing slaves being murdered? Maybe they're demon slaves.
Either way it sounds like this party thoroughly deserves one another.
Mystic_Snowfang wrote: Sheahan wrote: Mystic_Snowfang wrote: Sheahan wrote: Forget round 2. If you, an evil spawn of an evil outsider, try to take out an Empyreal Lord, Ragathiel is going to waste you.
As for the rest of it; what I'm seeing is one player who wants to play a very different game from the rest of the group. To the point of playing an evil character in the adventure path designed for Paladins. If there's a problem player in this scenario I don't think it's the paladin.
Eh, it sounds like the Paladin should have fallen a long time ago.
It sounds like a poopshow of a game all over. Problematic GM, Problematic players, and the like. Oh, it's quite possible the paladin would have fallen in one of my games, although my experience with WotR suggests there's context that's being left out or misconstrued. That doesn't really matter though. If the group wants to play a certain way and one player wants to go a different way and can't fit in, that player is a problem for that group. True, though the first one seems flat-out evil. Fleeing slaves being murdered? Maybe they're demon slaves.
Either way it sounds like this party thoroughly deserves one another. That's actually the point that initially made me think the OP isn't being exactly straight with the context.
Maybe Hannibal incorrectly assumed the Tieflings and Cultists were slaves of the demons? Overall it does seem like there are some issues going on. The paladin should probably fall, but going after an Empyreal Lord after Wrath of the Righteous? Not cool.
Claxon wrote: Your story comes off very one sided, and my experience in such instances is that there is usually far more to the tale. Quoting myself on this because I agree with the latest poster who are saying there is more to this story than the OP is letting on.
Maybe I misunderstood but we were told the teiflings are slaves of the demons.
I even told my group to let them go. I am only evil because my character is a serial killer in his background fluff I actually chose it to try and give my character some "character" I wanted to play the good guy with a hidden dark side.
This seems to be getting off topic though. All I wanted was some answers on how to kill an EL only real answers to this seem to be look into making my weapon legendary and that I will most likely get smited hard.
Hannibal322 wrote: This seems to be getting off topic though. All I wanted was some answers on how to kill an EL only real answers to this seem to be look into making my weapon legendary and that I will most likely get smited hard. Unless the GM likes the idea of the fight happening, it shouldn't. Now that said if you are going to kill a god (well, divine being), you'll need help.
The obvious one is you'll need a party. Every big encounter even remotely like this assumes you're building an entire party to take on a major boss. I think this qualifies as slightly tougher than a Runelord, or a being that is about to become a god (which is the end boss of several different Adventure Paths). So you'll need to develop allies that are as powerful as yourself. Difficult to imagine. You may actually want to resurrect some of your less objectionable enemies to accomplish this.
You'll also need a plan. How to get to the Lord. How to deal with guards, protections, barriers, other obstacles. This requires information gathering. Probably while you are still in contact with people that can easily obtain the information.
If you haven't obtained some way to hide your thoughts and actions from gods, you should make that a high priority. Seriously, you need that.
Keep an eye out for really potent weapons towards the end of the campaign. Usually major bad guys have the kind of weapon you'd need later. Sure the party will attempt to destroy it. If they can then it isn't the weapon you need anyways. You just need to figure out how to end up with the artifact weapon instead of it being sealed away in some vault or another party member's hands.
And the last thing you need to prepare for is dealing with the fallout of your actions. Even attempting this should upset the other players, and probably the GM as well. Its probably better to just bail the game and leave them with some positive feelings toward you rather than sour your relationship by doing something incredibly spiteful and pointless. Really, this is going to make things difficult for dealing with the same 'friends' later whether you are gaming or doing anything else.
Thank you that was an informative post. I do like your idea of a bunch of bad guys forming a team to kill a "god". Though I am finding it very weird that people on here seem to get real upset at the idea of this. This is the rule of cool that drives this game. Tell a story and see what awesome stuff the players do with it.
Heck just last week my group was playing Deadlands and things went south and the mad scientist blew up his Electric flame thrower killing him, my character and another and we all thought it was awesome. These are games we are playing them for those cool moments.
Hannibal322 wrote: Thank you that was an informative post. I do like your idea of a bunch of bad guys forming a team to kill a "god". Though I am finding it very weird that people on here seem to get real upset at the idea of this. This is the rule of cool that drives this game. Tell a story and see what awesome stuff the players do with it.
Heck just last week my group was playing Deadlands and things went south and the mad scientist blew up his Electric flame thrower killing him, my character and another and we all thought it was awesome. These are games we are playing them for those cool moments.
Because the real crux of this is in order to "win" you basically have to bully the GM into letting you win.
In the Archon category alone, there's at least 25 other empyreal lords capable of wishes, miracles, time stops, etc., each with their own innumerable forces, each with their own mythic characters to throw at you.
You either lose when initiative is rolled, or the GM lets you become Simon from TTGL.
Well you're playing an evil character who is imagining slights like racism as a code breaker (it isn't. He doesn't like people with abbysal bloodlines)
From this imagined slight you're planning to murder his deity in order to smugly hold it over him. Which, frankly, would only prove his point.
So a lot of this looks manufactured into giving you an excuse to do something you want to do anyways.
So I agree with the advice of talking to the Ayers and the GM.
I am fine with losing I just want to try because it sounds awesome. Hell even if its just like I form the party and we get smited leaving the bar that's still pretty funny. Next time though I will ask how to kill the evil equivalent of something. Still very surprised at the hate for evil characters bad guys are fun.
Also good to note that racism is good if they come from a bad bloodline. Don't know if you could hear my eyes roll at that.
Someone want to explain what Ayers is? All I could find googling it is some lady sandy ayers with a pathfinder moving company.
It would be "players" that was typoed. Happy to explain. You're welcome.
And yes. A paladin can dislike things too. They can also gamble. Or womanize. Or do lots of things that flesh them out to be more than a cardboard cut out. You are eye rolling at a player role-playing. But no.. I didn't hear you eye roll. For several reasons. One, I can't hear from reading text. Two, eye rolls don't make much noise.
My issue isn't with you playing an evil character. It's playing a character looking for excuses to screw with your party.
Thanks for the explanation Cavall. I don't know man it seems to me that if you took that "role-playing" to the extremes I am dealing with I would argue that you are no longer good either. I would argue most people are neutral and would have written that on my character sheet had it not been for some of my characters darker tendencies. To me to be good you must be a pillar of the community setting examples and realizing your issues. Which you can have issues. To me it's coming off as I am good because I said so.
Yes I am looking to screw with that player. After the campaign has ended it is something I want to be able to do and accept it will probably end in failure. Now through some miracle he may do something in game to shift my characters point of view of his but at this point my character hates his. Outside the game me and the dude are totally friends we go drinking and play other games together. Also this is a very long way out there since we are barely into book 3 of the campaign if even that far.
Talking to one of the other players about this plan and how people have mentioned the EL could just be resurrected. He mentioned that I could capture his soul. So does anyone know how I would go about doing that since I am not playing a spell caster? Some enemies I have encountered have had gems to capture souls in but I imagine a EL might be to strong to keep in any of those.
Hannibal322 wrote: Talking to one of the other players about this plan and how people have mentioned the EL could just be resurrected. He mentioned that I could capture his soul. So does anyone know how I would go about doing that since I am not playing a spell caster? Some enemies I have encountered have had gems to capture souls in but I imagine a EL might be to strong to keep in any of those. If this were Eberron, I'd suggest tracking down a Keeper's fang, or looking for someone with the right aberrant dragonmark, or hiring someone that can cast Khyber trap. Alas, this is not Eberron.
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This is a great idea and I wholeheartedly endorse it.
Unfortunately there are no stats for Tanagaar so you're kinda at your GM's mercy on that.
But you can look at the statted ELs to prepare.
And the EL traits.
First, you kill an EL the same way you kill anything: by getting stronger. The guy's a CR 26? Become a CR 36. Max your current class and then start taking antipaladin levels and max those too. You're gonna want some 9th level mythic spells to sling and a clone or two tucked away in pocket dimensions to keep you coming back for more, so 20 levels of wizard would be advisable too (or at least a mythic Archmage under your total domination). You'll need MR 8 at the very least for the resurrection ability. Start investing in Mythic path abilities to protect you from divination, such as Beyond Morality (Ex) and the Undetectable legendary item ability. Dual path is handy too. An artifact weapon of at least +6 is highly recommended to shut down that pesky regeneration.
The EL has Good Gods on his side? Get some Bad Gods on yours. Try to get some nascent demon lords or better in your corner. An Infernal Duke my be interested in this endeavor. There is probably a Malebranche or three who've been itching to crush this or any EL--seek them out. Definitely sell your soul; you're all in on this. Obtain any templates you can: Half-Fiend, Stellar Vampire, Lich, Mutant, anything and everything to boost your stats.
Get yourself a pet Tarrasque. This is for training purposes only. When you can solo it and beat it to a bloody pulp without taking a scratch you'll know you are prepared as far as your martial abilities go, and you can then begin focusing on your spellcasting. (This will require a montage.)
Start an anti Tanagaar religion. Let's face it he's probably going to see you coming from a mile away so let's use that to your advantage. Try to draw him out of his stupid plane to deny him that home field advantage. Slay all of his followers on the material plane. You can do the strong ones yourself, but this sort of thing should really be delegated to your zealot minions. If he has a mortal herald kill that too. Destroy, dominate, or corrupt every Archon, Planetar, and Solar he sends to stop you. Taunt him to come down to your plane and get his hands dirty. Try to make owls go extinct; offer obscene sums of gold for every dead owl. If all else fails collapsing his home plane or colliding it with the negative energy plane or something should be looked into.
Make sure you're immortal--otherwise he's just going to wait out your lifespan like the coward he is.
Empyreal Lords are outsiders and thus don't have a soul you can trap. So you're going to have to get creative with keeping that f+~+er dead. Researching new mythic spells or slaying him on a magic dead plane might be necessary. If all else fails you can simply kill him again every time he respawns. Also kill anyone who resurrects him. Make it known, that guy stays dead--or else. No quarter given.
Have fun and good luck!
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As for the actual nitty gritty of the fight, when facing demigods I find a few Quickened Maximized Empowered Augmented Magic Missiles to be invaluable. 270+ unavoidable damage per round at essentially unlimited range can cut pretty much anything down to size quickly. Even better if you bring a couple of friends who can do the same. Even Cernunnos at CR30 only has 663 hp. Make that number 0 and you win! (Almost)
Ouranou loved that post some of it does sound doable and I am going to name my pet Tarrasque Terry. Yea yesterday the other player that is interested in helping with this and the gm were all brainstorming this and we were discussing using a cacodaemon since they mentioned that they convert souls into stones. I have not looked into this but it does sound interesting.
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