We've learned how ability boosts will work for dwarves, elves, goblins, halflings and gnomes. Basically they get their old ability boosts and single flaw while also getting a floating boost to another ability of their choice.
This leaves the question open of how the new system will work for humans and "mixed heritages". Previously they got a single stat boost to whatever ability they wished (and the ability to choose what to boost was really powerful because it let you customize your character to have an advantage to basically any class you chose). What will happen with PF2?
Personally I think the most likely outcome to be for humans to get 2 different floating ability boosts without the flaw. While I think this will cause humans to end up as being "the best race" again I also think PF2 will give Paizo the chance to differentiate humans and mixed heritages more.
Here's my suggestion:
-Humans should get 2 floating boosts while half orcs and half elves get 2 as well but with ALSO a fixed boost and a fixed flaw. Say, half orcs get a +2 to str and a -2 to int along with 2 floating bonuses while half elves get a +2 to dex and a -2 to con and the other 2 bonuses as well.
-Humans should get their boosts to one mental and one physical ability. In all likelyhood they'll end up getting a free general feat again at creation. 2 ability boosts on top of that with no flaws and no limitations risk turning them into the "best race for any class you choose" all over again.
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I'd say two floating +2's is strong enough that a human should also get a floating -2 they can put wherever they want. We all know humans aren't perfect in real life, and even most literary and mythological heroes have notable flaws.
I really hope humans don't just have a bonus general feat as their racial feature again. I want humans to have actual definition.
I'd say give humans +2 Charisma and give them the mediator/social/everybody's second best friend role but I guess you need to be small and cute to have high Charisma.
I'd say give humans +2 Charisma and give them the mediator/social/everybody's second best friend role but I guess you need to be small and cute to have high Charisma.
I've thought about this, and I think a number of other people have too. It kind of fits - humans are generally portrayed as the race that unifies the other races, and in most settings they have the most cosmopolitan cities overall. Apparently everything under and beyond the sun wants to breed with humans too, considering all the things like half-elves, aasimar, and so on and so forth that are always portrayed as specifically half-human.
They could get +2 Cha, two floating +2s, and a floating -2, now that I think about it.
But yes, the small races REALLY need to get adjusted. I've seen some good arguments in the last day that Golarion Gnomes are nothing like Eberron Gnomes or the like, so maybe +Con +Cha really does make sense for them. But Halflings should lose the +Cha and get +Wis, while Goblins should lose the +Cha and get either +Con (preferred) or +Int (if they are really that averse to boosting two physicals).
Humans should also get a bonus to bluff.
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Giving humans two floaters isn't going to make them nearly as impressive as they were in PF1. Every race gets a floater, so everyone will have an 18 in the key attribute, unless going with a 16 is deemed preferable, in which case it matters even less. The only restriction is going to be with the dump stat, but that is more of a feature than a bug if the dump stat is right for the chosen class.
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Humans are supposed to be adaptable, not just plain 'better' than other races. This is why 5E's +1 to all stats just rubs me the wrong way, and I hope PF2 doesn't follow D&D down that loathsome path. I hope humans remain similar to how they work in PF1 with floating bonuses and an extra level 1 feat.
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They could do it by making the ability bonuses paired. Warrior clan +str +con, Noble family +int +cha and Celestial +wis +cha ect.I've always preferred Urban (+2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma), Rural (+2 Strength, +2 Constitution), and Frontier (+2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom). But I did that for a homebrew setting that was specifically meant to play up to differences between these areas of a budding empire.
I... actually like that concept a lot, and think something like that might be a good chassis for Paizo to present for human builds. It would not only make PF2 more "generic ready" for those of us who use our own campaign settings, it would also avoid the unintentional racism of things like saying the black people from Mwangi get +Str +Con and a skill bonus to Athletics.
What I'd recommend is to extend that to six different sets, each one focused on one of the six ability scores with the other one being a floater.
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I'd say two floating +2's is strong enough that a human should also get a floating -2 they can put wherever they want. We all know humans aren't perfect in real life, and even most literary and mythological heroes have notable flaws.
I really hope humans don't just have a bonus general feat as their racial feature again. I want humans to have actual definition.
What if humans got a bonus ancestry feat? Golarion humans are defined more by their origin nation than the other races. Where dwarves are generally seen as stout and hardy, or gnomes fickle and playful, you would never mistake a Shoanti human for a Chelish human.
What if humans got a bonus ancestry feat? Golarion humans are defined more by their origin nation than the other races. Where dwarves are generally seen as stout and hardy, or gnomes fickle and playful, you would never mistake a Shoanti human for a Chelish human.I'd say two floating +2's is strong enough that a human should also get a floating -2 they can put wherever they want. We all know humans aren't perfect in real life, and even most literary and mythological heroes have notable flaws.
I really hope humans don't just have a bonus general feat as their racial feature again. I want humans to have actual definition.
Bonus ancestry feat is fine :)
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Do we really have to call them "floaters"?
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If it's anything like Starfinder, having only floating bonuses is going to be a detriment, not a buff. Human boost is only good because of the weighted point-buy... When any Ancestry can get a 18 in any stat, having the -2 dump actually pays off more in the long run because you're getting those 2 points into something else that matters.
It seems PF2 will have that system where all stats added together are always the same for every char. (18, 14,14,12,10,10 for the Kyra means everyone would be at 78). In this case you probably want the dump.
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The whole point of the change from the concept of "race" to that of "ancestry" was to open up more space for unique origins.
So human "ancestries" should be more specific than they previously were. A PC shouldn't be simply "human", he should be:
- Varisian
- Shoanti
- Chellaxian
- Mwangi
- Vudran
- Taldan
- Ulfan
and so on. Not every nation in Golarion need have its own ancestry. For example, most city folk in Varisia are of Chellaxian descent, not Varisian. Most of Taldor's former colonies will be Taldan, not some odd ancestry of their own.
I predict that we will have various human ancestries, each one with a fixed +2 and a floating +2, and no penalty at all. And perhaps they will have an extra feat and/or skill, as currently in PF1.0.
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The whole point of the change from the concept of "race" to that of "ancestry" was to open up more space for unique origins.
So human "ancestries" should be more specific than they previously were. A PC shouldn't be simply "human", he should be:
- Varisian
- Shoanti
- Chellaxian
- Mwangi
- Vudran
- Taldan
- Ulfan
and so on.
I am a huge fan of the switch to ancestries and am excited about the whole new system, but this is actually a change that I would loath to see. If humans are the only ones to get the benefit of having ancestries instead of being defined by their race, the developers have made a massive fail.
I have been disappointed that the previews have shown us "elves" and "dwarves" smashed together as two examples of ancestry instead of here are two ancestries of dwarves, having the attribute, speed and vision stuff tied to a racial template and the feats tied to a broader ancestry concept is interesting to me, even if it seems like it is going to create some weird balance issues if every racial template gets the same amount of ancestry feats, but it will be less imbalanced than current alternative racial traits are in play and much more will hinge on how well the ancestry feats fill in the feel of the character.For the play test, I don't think this is an make or break deal, but if it makes it through to the final game that dwarves are dwarves and humans are a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,etc.-ancestry, that is pretty wildly disappointing.
Oh, I agree that the other races also deserve regional and cultural ancestries.
If there is simply an ancestry labelled "human" then IMHO the guys at Paizo will have missed a major opportunity in the move away from the race-based nomenclature.
Already, in PF1.0, we see some cultural specificity, like between Varisians, Chellaxians and Shoanti in the softback book on Varisia.
We will see whether Paizo manages to make the move from race to ancestry in anything but name.
What about if humans were able to take other races ancestry feats. maybe they have some dwarf in the blood line or what have you. If that was the case would it eliminate the need for half elf and half orc to be their own thing?
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What about if humans were able to take other races ancestry feats. maybe they have some dwarf in the blood line or what have you. If that was the case would it eliminate the need for half elf and half orc to be their own thing?
The need for half-elf and half-orc to be their own thing is a lot of people liking them. Patching them on to human wouldn’t really remove that.
I’m guessing human gets an extra trained skill of their choice at first level, and that that’s equivalent to what an extra +1 Int bonus would give.
The whole point of the change from the concept of "race" to that of "ancestry" was to open up more space for unique origins.
So human "ancestries" should be more specific than they previously were. A PC shouldn't be simply "human", he should be:
- Varisian
- Shoanti
- Chellaxian
- Mwangi
- Vudran
- Taldan
- Ulfan
and so on. Not every nation in Golarion need have its own ancestry. For example, most city folk in Varisia are of Chellaxian descent, not Varisian. Most of Taldor's former colonies will be Taldan, not some odd ancestry of their own.I predict that we will have various human ancestries, each one with a fixed +2 and a floating +2, and no penalty at all. And perhaps they will have an extra feat and/or skill, as currently in PF1.0.
I'd welcome your idea but this is something that cannot be done with the core rulebook. I'm sure Paizo can give each of Golarion's ancestries their own ability boosts and flaws (it would be cool actually) but I highly doubt they will do it in the copre rulebook. What if you want to play an homebrew game set in the distant past on Earth? How are you going to explain Shoanti, Ulfens and Taldans being there, for example?
I am also skeptical that any ancestry will get something like a bonus proficiency, outside of that being an ancestry feat which grants one.
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What about if humans were able to take other races ancestry feats. maybe they have some dwarf in the blood line or what have you. If that was the case would it eliminate the need for half elf and half orc to be their own thing?The need for half-elf and half-orc to be their own thing is a lot of people liking them. Patching them on to human wouldn’t really remove that.
But what if the patch were good enough that those players felt like they were playing their beloved Half-orcs and Half-elves? I can't imagine this is impossible; it just takes careful consideration.
And then it opens the door for other interesting races to be included in Core. I'd love to see Orc as a core offering (yes, i know many, many despise this as much or more than the goblin move, but there it is). But even opening up some other options (the beloved Tengu or similar) would be really interesting.
One other thought, and with the focus that PF2 seems to place on Ability score boosts at creation, this may be a non-starter. But if it worked, it would open up some interesting design options.
What if humans had less stat boosts at creation (floating or fixed), but had a far deeper pool of ancestral feats available (both in terms of slots available and feats that can be taken)? This would mean that humans are more flexible but less focused on a raw natural power level. Some of these expanded options could be feats that straight up boost spell DC's and what-not, so a human could attain similar spell-casting or weapon usage numbers, but though supporting boosts than the ability score.
Then, obviously, the half-ancestry options would give them that half-race's fixed stat boost (without the flaw), but at a greater expenditure of human ancestry feats.
This way, humans aren't as focused as other ancestries unless they spend a LOT of their base human ancestry resources to get there.
I don't know ... food for thought.
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I really hope that Humans ancestry doesn't name everything after golarion locations, would make things very hard for new people and anyone who doesn't know the golarion setting to remember the names of their abilities.
Player: "I took the gobbledygook feat."
GM: "Which means what....?"
We already have some specific culture-linked feats like Thunder and Fang for the Shoanti in PF1.0. I fail to see why having culture-linked feats classed as ancestry feats would be a bad thing. It creates deeper linkage to Golarion, which is a stated PF2.0 design goal.
Do we really have to call them "floaters"?
First time I heard the term was in The Hobbit and I have tried to work it into my conversations whenever I can ever since.
Do we really have to call them "floaters"?First time I heard the term was in The Hobbit and I have tried to work it into my conversations whenever I can ever since.
So your to blame
So your to blameDo we really have to call them "floaters"?First time I heard the term was in The Hobbit and I have tried to work it into my conversations whenever I can ever since.
At least I didn't use the word taint. That came from 3.5e.
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At least I didn't use the word taint. That came from 3.5e.So your to blameDo we really have to call them "floaters"?First time I heard the term was in The Hobbit and I have tried to work it into my conversations whenever I can ever since.
Breaking out legend of the 5 rings now.
Let’s hope there are Ancestry feat at level 1 where you have to pick a culture.
Heh really the running for days for fun really reinforces your -2 wisdom idea.
This is utterly inapplicable to the PF2 design... but the way I'm handling it (after having stolen Paizo's +2/+2/+2/-2 idea) is that Humans don't get ability boosts at all.
In Sellswords & Godwars, Feats grant two +1 ASIs. You get Occupation Feats on your fours, and Ancestry Feats in-between.
At 1st level, Humans get a Bonus Feat. And whenever Humans get an Ancestry Feat, they get an additional +1 ASI-- any ability score that isn't their highest. Human feats, however, tend to award bonuses to "the lower of X/Y".
Means humanoids start with +4 net versus humans' +3, but humans catch up at 6th and start pulling ahead after that-- buuuuuuut their ability scores are less focused. Humans are better at being MAD and Multiclassed.
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While I'mnot sure how that execution would pan out, I really like the idea of making the Human racials be less focused on Ability boosts. Let other ancestries be more specialized (Agile elves, strong orcs, rugged dwarves, etc). Let humans be the the flexible, adaptable folk.
Don't give them ancestral ability boosts. give them more ancestral and general feats during creation, and give them unique options that then lets them attain similar levels of mechanical power if that's what they choose. So while Elves might be the best Rangers and Orcs might be the best Barbarians, humans can be the second best at everything while remaining competitive with those more focused characters.
I'm more worried about what the ancestry feats are going to be for humans. There's most likely going to be a couple based on how you were raised but what will humans get at higher levels?
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One thing I can see them doing (assuming that humans get two floating ability score bonuses) is tie human ancestry feats to the selected bonus stat -- for example, there might be a "Natural Leader" feat that requires you to have applied one of your floating racial bonuses to charisma.
One thing I can see them doing (assuming that humans get two floating ability score bonuses) is tie human ancestry feats to the selected bonus stat -- for example, there might be a "Natural Leader" feat that requires you to have applied one of your floating racial bonuses to charisma.
That's a fairly interesting and flavorful idea, and I could see that working well :)
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I'd say two floating +2's is strong enough that a human should also get a floating -2 they can put wherever they want. We all know humans aren't perfect in real life, and even most literary and mythological heroes have notable flaws.
I really hope humans don't just have a bonus general feat as their racial feature again. I want humans to have actual definition.
This would be cool, but then I'd really shy away from any sort of special sets of bonuses/flaws for regional ancestries. That could get real hairy, real quick, if the African Analogue (Mwangi) ends up with stereotypical bonuses/flaws while the Ulfen (Aryan/White) ends up with other stereotypical bonuses/flaws.
So while I'd love to see each of the regional ancestries fleshed out a bit more this way, I think it has to be done very carefully.
How about tring to get fluff and mechanics as far away as we can? No regional feats, no raised by feats, and please no g~~+!@n found by faeries in the jungle.
Personally it would be found by faeries in the forest, friend of giants, raised by wild animals, dragon's brood, etc.
Raised by wild faeriedragons in the giant forest?