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I always saw that as propaganda by the bigoty humans that want to oppress the orc kind and want to keep human blood "pure."From the Beastiary description of the Orcs:
An adult male orc is roughly 6 feet tall and 210 pounds.
Orcs and humans interbreed frequently, though this is
almost always the result of raids and slave-taking rather
than consensual unions. Many orc tribes purposefully
breed for half-orcs and raise them as their own, as the
smarter progeny make excellent strategists and leaders
for their tribes.So it seems pretty clear that rapey orcs is built into the Orc sauce.
You should read Orcs of Golarion, they are really that bad.
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I just don't understand how removing half-orcs achieves that. If you're going that route, I'd think you would just want to soften the image of orcs entirely, such that half-orcs no longer have the implication of rape. Even just introducing NPCs who are the produce of consensual orc-human relationships seems better to me from every angle than removing half-orcs completely.
For the record, Paizo has actually done this quite a bit. They've specified how most of the Half Orcs in the Mwangi expanse come about quite consensually, shown Irabeth Tirabade, a Half Orc Paladin whose parents (an orc and a human) were a loving couple, and so on and so forth.
Plus they've noted that a lot of Half Orcs come from Half Orc parents and have for a very long time.
Now, Half Orcs as the children of rape are also very definitely a thing in the setting, but not one that needs to be ever brought up if you don't want it to be.
You should read Orcs of Golarion, they are really that bad.
You should take a look at the Belkzen book. Most Orcs (at least in Belkzen) are indeed that bad, but the CG Warpriest of Sarenrae with her own tribe and similar examples are also very much existent in the setting.
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You should take a look at the Belkzen book. Most Orcs (at least in Belkzen) are indeed that bad, but the CG Warpriest of Sarenrae with her own tribe and similar examples are also very much exitent in the setting.
I'm glad you brought them up, because the last time I did I was ignored.
As for the OP, frankly the only people who play proper half-orcs are the people who would be playing a full-blooded orc if given the option so I would fully support half-orcs being replaced with orcs as a core race. I'd also like to see half-elves removed in favor of a "Human Ancestry" heritage feat in order to portray the various half-humans.
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Relevant survey: Half-orcs are the #4 most popular PC race, and half-elves are #2 (see question 3.)
Paizo would be shooting themselves in the foot (and messing with a lot of players) by making it into a complicated mess to build one of these.
I guess the question is would half-orc fans miss the half as a full blown orc? I dont really play half-orcs but I do half-elves and think id miss them alot.
It's probably more structured than Goblin society at least.
Plus the Kingdom of Many Arrows has been working really hard to change society's perception of orcs and also change how orc society functions itself. So I think there's a lot more basis for playable orcs (as opposed to playable goblins, but whatever).
Relevant survey: Half-orcs are the #4 most popular PC race, and half-elves are #2 (see question 3.)
Paizo would be shooting themselves in the foot (and messing with a lot of players) by making it into a complicated mess to build one of these.
I do wonder how much of the popularity of half orcs is due to some combination of fate's favored and sacred tattoos as well as a racial proficiency in some good weapons.
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Orcs are a race of psychopaths and rapists. Why should that be a core race? This isn't Warcraft or Might and Magic, orcs aren't reasonable or honorable, their gods are the most vile things imaginable and they reflect that in every aspect, from being unable to form traumatic memories in order to not develop regret over their actions to having a culture based around abusing those under your "control" (your subordinates, your slaves, your wives, and even your children).
If it works for goblins, why not?
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No, what I dislike are as follows:
1) Evil Species
2) Monocultural SpeciesIf you want to have a species with an evil culture (which is fine), let's at least make sure it's just one of several. If humanity can produce Galt (CN), Cheliax (LE), Andoran (NG), Druma (LN), Absalom (N), Irrisen (NE), Mendev (LG), and Nirmathas (CG) we can get several kinds of orcs.
Actually, we pretty clearly already have this established in Golarion. The Orcs of Belkzen are a CE culture that worships Rovagug and has a lot of inherent nastiness built up (though there are, as mentioned, individual exceptions).
The Orcs of the Mwangi Expanse appear to have a vastly different culture and fight in alliance with human tribes against the local Demon problems. Unfortunately we know almost nothing else about them, with almost all the books published thus far talking about Orcs (very much including Orcs of Golarion) focus exclusively on those from Belkzen and surrounding areas.
In short, this is already true in-setting, we just need significantly more data on the Orc cultures other than that of the Hold of Belkzen.
They might need to get in line behind Elves, Dwarves and Halflings.
We pretty much have those, actually.
For Elves, those in Tian Xia are LG and notably culturally divergent, just for example. Those in the Mwangi Expanse are also pretty culturally divergent, as are several other groups.
And Dwarves, while a bit more culturally monolithic, do have the Ouat and several other groups that are more than a bit different.
As for Halflings, they tend to take on the culture of the humans nearby more than anything with sort of a light halfling overlay, which actually results in a lot of serious cultural divergences between, say, Chelish Halflings and those in Osirion.
Really, what we think of as 'Elf Culture' is Kyonin Culture, and 'Dwarf Culture' is that of the Five Kings Mountains.
I am against a half-anything race just because of genetics. Never has it made much sense to me.Certain related species can mate with each other to produce sterile offspring. Mules are probably the best known example, but ligers are a neat one too.
Yeah but Half-Orcs and Half-elves are:
a) Not sterile
b) Breed true (ie a half-orc couple will have exclusively half-orcs and a half-elf couple will have exclusively half-elves).
Dhampirs are Golarion's equivalent of the mule/liger.
They might need to get in line behind Elves, Dwarves and Halflings.We pretty much have those, actually.
For Elves, those in Tian Xia are LG and notably culturally divergent, just for example. Those in the Mwangi Expanse are also pretty culturally divergent, as are several other groups.
And Dwarves, while a bit more culturally monolithic, do have the Ouat and several other groups that are more than a bit different.
As for Halflings, they tend to take on the culture of the humans nearby more than anything with sort of a light halfling overlay, which actually results in a lot of serious cultural divergences between, say, Chelish Halflings and those in Osirion.
Really, what we think of as 'Elf Culture' is Kyonin Culture, and 'Dwarf Culture' is that of the Five Kings Mountains.
We've got at least 2 other well developed (or as well developed as we get) cultures for Dwarves and Elves. The Snowcaster Elves from the Crown of the World and the Pahmet Dwarves from Osirion. So they're far from monocultures, really.
I still don't think adding Orcs instead of Half-Orcs is a good idea. They've got pretty well established physical and cultural differences, you can't just yank Half-Orcs out and put in Orcs as a replacement.
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Another vote for eliminating "half-races" and replacing them with mechanics for ancestry-mixing. Add Orc and Kobold. Problem solved, and then suddenly the most populous races in Golarion are represented.
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First of all, let me say that I love full-blooded Orcs as a race and play them more often than any other group. Orcs are wild and ferocious and free of restraint in a way that I find deeply appealing. I am very much in favor of including Orcs as the core race and making Half-Orcs the optional ancestry.
I am not, however, in favor of rewriting Orc culture to make it more palatable to modern sensibilities. The Orc mindset and worldview is described in the Advanced Race Guide, Orcs of Golarion, and Inner Sea Races as being something along the lines of "I have the right to whatever I have the strength to take by force. Those who cannot stop me from taking what I desire have no rights at all." This mindset, while it does lead to less than pleasant activities inflicted upon humans, is part of what gives Orcs their appeal to me in the same way that goblins being hilariously psychotic gives them appeal to their players. If they were rewritten to be a bit more tame and less "might makes right" I would be less inclined to play them.
But that's just my two cents.
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Even just introducing NPCs who are the produce of consensual orc-human relationships seems better to me from every angle than removing half-orcs completely.
Like the iconic warpriest?
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As for the OP, frankly the only people who play proper half-orcs are the people who would be playing a full-blooded orc if given the option
I think that this is way too much of a blanket statement, and I can say with certainty that I never wanted to play a full-blown orc outside of Shadowrun . Still I love playing half-races (Halfelf more than Halforc, but still. And speaking of Halfelves, there's a reason why they are so popular, even when you could just as well simply play an elf instead.
From my experience, a lot of people like to play characters that are outsiders of (normal) society, maybe even outcasts. Halforcs (and to a lesser degree, Halfelfs) have that description kinda written in their DNA, so you don't need any long-winded explanation why you don't belong. But (mostly) unlike in real life, roleplaying games present you with a scenario where you can prove worthy and find acceptance through your deeds, no matter how you look, no matter your origin. Which, by the way is an important factor to me, because I know a bit about not being accepted for reasons you were neither responsible for nor that you can change in any way.
And I think that a lot of us players can relate to that, because quite some of us know that feeling not to belong, not to fit conventional society, to be an outsider. Just look at the most famous outcast of all times, Drizz't do 'Urden, the most popular character ever created within the wider D&D universe (probably even the whole RPG universe). In my opinion, that is also why Tieflings have become so popular
So no, I don't want to play an Orc, because they don't have anything from the things that make Half-orcs an appealing choice for me.
So what does it add to have a whole species in your game world that is super into those things?
Well, it simplifies things. On a base level, Orcs = Evil, enough said. Same with Drow. As said before, no explanation needed, as soon as you see them, you know they are enemies. Yeah, that's a black and white approach but not everything in rpgs must be as complicated as in real life. Now we already have established that things in Golarion aren't quite as black and white as they might be at first glance and Orc culture isn't quite as monolithic as it might seem when you're just reading the bestiary entry and that's fine with me.
But on the other hand, I like to have those archetypal races in my game and humans pretty much cover that "everything is gray" area so I don't need the same for every other race out there.
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I do understand (much more that I would like) the fact that people are inconfortable with rape (here being the origins of most Half-Orcs). But we have to acknolewdge the fact that this is a medieval game. Torture (and the true horrific ones), rape, slavery, murder makes sense in it. We don't have to go full RR Martin on it but at least in the canon they make sense.
That being said everyone has the right to change his canon. That is the whole point of the game. I am sure that you could almost at 100% rename the Half-Orc of PF2 just Orc and change the name of a few ancestries feats and that would be ok.
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But we have to acknolewdge the fact that this is a medieval game. Torture (and the true horrific ones), rape, slavery, murder makes sense in it. We don't have to go full RR Martin on it but at least in the canon they make sense.
1) Pathfinder/Golarion is not a "medieval" game/system.
2) The hell we do.
3) Are you seriously saying we have to include all that because it makes "sense" to you to do so?
Orcs are a race of psychopaths and rapists. Why should that be a core race? This isn't Warcraft or Might and Magic, orcs aren't reasonable or honorable, their gods are the most vile things imaginable and they reflect that in every aspect, from being unable to form traumatic memories in order to not develop regret over their actions to having a culture based around abusing those under your "control" (your subordinates, your slaves, your wives, and even your children).
Definitely by core not all of them.
I always saw that as propaganda by the bigoty humans that want to oppress the orc kind and want to keep human blood "pure."
Considering info from AP's I've read it's mostly true.
Still half-orcs in most of Avistan are not really so much persecuted as orcs. Even in Trunau - town constantly warring with orc tribes.Yeah but Half-Orcs and Half-elves are:
a) Not sterile
b) Breed true (ie a half-orc couple will have exclusively half-orcs and a half-elf couple will have exclusively half-elves).Dhampirs are Golarion's equivalent of the mule/liger.
With more realistic approach I'd probably make elves and orcs subspecies of mankind mutated by energies of First World in ancient days, but honestly in universe where Homo sapiens spontaneously appeared on hundreds various worlds in galaxy... who cares anymore.
Plus the Kingdom of Many Arrows has been working really hard to change society's perception of orcs and also change how orc society functions itself. So I think there's a lot more basis for playable orcs (as opposed to playable goblins, but whatever).
And that's why remaining CE character - because Obould Many Arrows was CE.
There is some place for civic, non-genocidal CE in Golarion I believe, making it buttjoke of alignment never was really compelling to me.|
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Just saying, it's not like Paizo already doesn't have torture, slavery, and murder a plenty in Pathfinder/the APs (and yes, even a bit of rape shunted into the background on rare occasions). Don't want to include them in your games, whatever, but it makes sense to include those things because they're already there to start with.But we have to acknolewdge the fact that this is a medieval game. Torture (and the true horrific ones), rape, slavery, murder makes sense in it. We don't have to go full RR Martin on it but at least in the canon they make sense.1) Pathfinder/Golarion is not a "medieval" game/system.
2) The hell we do.
3) Are you seriously saying we have to include all that because it makes "sense" to you to do so?
No it does not.
But why would need any more reason.
Unless like me and my group you play games not for fun but to further our despair, trauma and anguish in effective, high CGI way
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No it does not.Just saying, it's not like Paizo already doesn't have torture, slavery, and murder a plenty in Pathfinder/the APs (and yes, even a bit of rape shunted into the background on rare occasions). Don't want to include them in your games, whatever, but it makes sense to include those things because they're already there to start with.But we have to acknolewdge the fact that this is a medieval game. Torture (and the true horrific ones), rape, slavery, murder makes sense in it. We don't have to go full RR Martin on it but at least in the canon they make sense.1) Pathfinder/Golarion is not a "medieval" game/system.
2) The hell we do.
3) Are you seriously saying we have to include all that because it makes "sense" to you to do so?
Okay. Why? Presuming you're playing Golarion why does it not make sense to include types of events that canonicly happen in that setting?
(Bonus points for a reason that isn't "someone at my table isn't comfortable with it")
Rape, torture, and murder occur all the time in the real world but I don't see it all the time in every bit of media I consume so...?
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Can we finally go away from the Half-Orc as a race please. They imply sexual assault and really no longer fit into the modern inclusive approach to gaming that hasn't always been there. I would be happy if they were playable full orcs, but half-orcs are just disturbing.
This seems to be the direction that gaming culture is moving towards. Your game world can't be a genuinely dark and scary place where awful things happen, it has to be a safe space. It's the Harry Potter model where the bad guy is a boogie man with no nose or a cape or something, and you can't describe him actually doing anything horrible because somewhere someone will be triggered, so he just does some scary magical hocus pocus and you beat him with your Fisher Price hammer.
EDIT
I felt like adding that I really do sympathize with victims of sexual assault. It's not that I believe it's not a big deal. But to sanitize every corner of the rule book and remove all implications of real world unpleasantness should be on you as the player/DM/gaming group. We don't all want to play G rated campaigns in whimsical settings and the raw barbarism of half orc culture gives them a medieval and almost realistic appeal.
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But why would need any more reason.
Unless like me and my group you play games not for fun but to further our despair, trauma and anguish in effective, high CGI way
I mean, your "why" can be about as simple as "Well it's written in the AP over yonder"
You know, your Hook Mountain Massacres or Kintargo Contracts just to think of two off the top of my head.
"It occurred somewhere else so now I have to include it" is the error here, a rather insidious (and weak) justification for including things like rape torture.
The perception that you "have to" is just blatantly false. There is no have to. There is no need to.
There is a want to.
Evils like that are included in stories because the writer/GM wants to include them, for whatever reason and for whatever point. Not a need, not a have, a want. Simple as that.
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I am against a half-anything race just because of genetics. Never has it made much sense to me.
Yeah, but it comes from Tolkien and has been part of the game since 1978.
One of my favorite characters was a thuggish, urban half-orc who had grown up in an orphanage with little information about his parents. When have became an adventurer, he developed a special hostility towards orcs to avenge his poor mother.
Later, for unrelated reasons, he was subject to divinations about his lineage and discovered the identity of his father.
His human father.
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Rape, torture, and murder occur all the time in the real world so but I don't see it all the time in every bit of media I consume so...?No it does not.Just saying, it's not like Paizo already doesn't have torture, slavery, and murder a plenty in Pathfinder/the APs (and yes, even a bit of rape shunted into the background on rare occasions). Don't want to include them in your games, whatever, but it makes sense to include those things because they're already there to start with.But we have to acknolewdge the fact that this is a medieval game. Torture (and the true horrific ones), rape, slavery, murder makes sense in it. We don't have to go full RR Martin on it but at least in the canon they make sense.1) Pathfinder/Golarion is not a "medieval" game/system.
2) The hell we do.
3) Are you seriously saying we have to include all that because it makes "sense" to you to do so?
Okay. Why? Presuming you're playing Golarion why does it not make sense to include types of events that canonicly happen in that setting?
(Bonus points for a reason that isn't "someone at my table isn't comfortable with it")
That's nice, but I and probably many others would arch an eyebrow if tons of violence and rape didn't show up in Berserk the Hypothetical Game because those sorts of things happen quite a lot over in Midland.
Pathfinder ain't Berserk by a long shot, but it certainly isn't My Little Pony where the bad guys just make people feel sad. Horrific stuff happens and is more often than not flat out written in the world guides or adventure paths. You have a setting where a demonic serial killer paralyzes some poor sap and carves him like a christmas turkey while he's still alive (Mangvhune's first real murder in the Kintargo Contract for reference, and for added bonus, the victim only died while he was being flayed alive for charming imagery) then it makes sense for similar horrors to happen if you're playing Golarion short of table variation like some players being overtly squicked out by that stuff.
No it does not.
Just because torture, rape, and serial killers are acknowledged as existing in a setting does not mean you have to include them every chance you get. That's nonsensical.
Sometimes those wants lead to engaging stories. I'd rather read Game of Thrones than Lord of the Rings. Though that speaks to the issue of a kitchen sink setting. You can not capture all facets of storytelling in one generic place. The million dollar question is how many real world edges do you round off to capture the largest audience? Or do you include it all but develop sometype of trigger warning system? An adventure setting material rating system? So might find that useful.
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You should read Orcs of Golarion, they are really that bad.
I'm a Pathfinder Compatible Publisher. You might as well be quoting Eberron or Harn to me. If I can't play in Pathfinder's setting, there's no reason for me to stay consistent with anything Paizo says. If anything going the opposite way is better since those that prefer their orcs not always evil and half-orcs to not be products of rape have an outlet.
Besides, I prefer to think of all intelligent life as being capable of making a choice as to who they want to be. Orcs may be less intelligent than humans and have biological and cultural inclinations towards a "less civilized" lifestyle but that doesn't mean they are unintelligent and incapable on acting in a manner respectful to life.
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I don't get why it's ok to say that orcs slaughter or enslave entire villages, but not that they rape people.
Raping is horrible, but is killing better?
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@ Rysky: Balancing realism with PG-13 standards is very tough, and usually reserved for crude comedies and Disney/Pixar movies.
If Pathfinder is a PG-13 Disney/Pixar movie, then I'll abandon ship full stop, because it's clear Pathfinder is a children's game, along the lines of Trouble, Sorry!, Uno, and Monopoly. It won't be long until I see Mickey Mouse as a Pathfinder Iconic, which will be both interesting and sickening at the same time.
Even its predecessors had more grit and grip to their stories, and is one of the reasons I put Berserk above My Little Pony, even though Paizo would probably make more money simply turning their villains into the demographic the latter show represents them as.
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Snipped"Every chance you get" is hogwash that I never mentioned. Further, that stuff isn't just "acknowledged," especially in the APs. Those are things that happen and your PCs flat out investigate and deal with. They are not just some background details like a bartender saying "Like yeah, that Mangvhune guy was a bad egg, carved someone up like a chicken once ya know,"
Put it another way: if, in a Golarion game, the GM decided to introduce a Night Haunter knockoff who in his twisted sense of justice, ran around stringing up criminals by their guts for all to see because criminals are a superstitious cowardly lot and stuff, would that not make sense given the type of setting Golarion is?
"It makes sense for similar things to happen"
"does it not make sense to include types of events that canonicly happen""but it makes sense to include those things because they're already there to start with"
These statements veer more towards "every chance you get" to insert such things rather than simply acknowledging those things do happen.
Yes that would fit in in Golarion. That doesn't in any way, shape, or form mean your GM has to include that story. They want to include that.
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If Pathfinder is a PG-13 Disney/Pixar movie, then I'll abandon ship full stop, because it's clear Pathfinder is a children's game, along the lines of Trouble, Sorry!, Uno, and Monopoly.... why are you letting that game around children?
Hey, I grew up with Monopoly!
And Crack (the game!).I even made a game of my own, called Monocrack...
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I don't think it's okay to generalize all orcs with nay of those things.I don't get why it's ok to say that orcs slaughter or enslave entire villages, but not that they rape people.
Raping is horrible, but is killing better?
Agreed. Sure <1% of all orc tribes engage in such behavior (just like less than 1% of humans do the same), but the prejudice humans spread through the rest of the human population that they are all evil, are rapists. This means the honest orcs are less able to sell the deer they killed in human markets, creating a permanent subclass.
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It won't be long until I see Mickey Mouse as a Pathfinder Iconic
*playful tone of voice* He's not the new alchemist?
*Ducks*
I'm on the fence about making Orcs core.
On one hand, I LOVE the idea of playing the noble savage. And being able to make 'might-makes-right' societies that are nuanced is incredibly intriguing — both from a player and GM perspective. I loved their representation in Eberron and I'd be interested in seeing this approach to a few of the cultures of Orcs in Golarion.
On the other hand, how do you balance their Ability scores against humans without watering one of these groups down? Physically weaker orcs? Or a harder cap on human strength scores? I don't love either of those options.
Plus, if you do find a way to do that, where does that leave Half-Orcs (which I also love in the game)? Do you just split the difference? Or do half-orcs get to choose if they're as strong as their full-blooded orc cousins ... which just doesn't quite feel right.