I just had the horrible realization ...


Prerelease Discussion

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Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

PF2's goblins are the newest incarnation of Drizzt Do'Urdens at the table. You know what I'm talking about here.

It's not so much that goblins-as-core may give license to gray-area players, which is a minor but real consideration. It's that Paizo is ruining the lore and core appeal that made Pathfinder goblins attractive to players in the first place. And just like stupid drow, they did it to tap into some "mass marketing" appeal of them as a playable race.

Seems like a bad idea that Paizo, for some reason, positively adores.


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I mean, goblins are drawn to two-weapon fighting (so they can hack more things) and fire, and as heroes might need some redemption. Fiery redemption happens to be associated with Sarenrae, whose favored weapon is scimitars. Add to that the fact that traditional goblin environments were swamps, forests, and caves which lend themselves to rangers and...


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Paradozen wrote:
I mean, goblins are drawn to two-weapon fighting (so they can hack more things) and fire, and as heroes might need some redemption. Fiery redemption happens to be associated with Sarenrae, whose favored weapon is scimitars. Add to that the fact that traditional goblin environments were swamps, forests, and caves which lend themselves to rangers and...

You know there is no way this isn't going to happen now.

Liberty's Edge

My experiences with drow NPCs predates Drizzt with two drow clerics of the Celtic Earth Mother, who were interested in trade and influenced some of their people to be less hostile to surface dwellers.

There are people who play analogs of characters already, and that is to be expected. Perhaps some of the Drizzt analogs will be satirical or actually look at issues from different perspectives. (Perhaps we will see a goblin who also improvises weapons from garbage and he can be called the Traschcan gob, and be somewhat based on a certain character from Stephen King's The Stand.)

I am somewhat divided on the issues of goblins as a core race. However, I think that keeping the dialog going is important.

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As an aside, my favorite PC is a good-aligned drow that I've played on and off for 20+ years now. It gets very annoying when people demean my role-playing choices because he bears a superficial resemblance to a popular Forgotten Realms character.

I'm just sort of thinking out loud here, but Pathfinder 2nd edition is going to bring in a bunch of new players, many of whom might find it fun to play a goblin PC. I think it would be good for the community if we tried to stay open-minded and encouraged people to play what they want rather than immediately draw comparisons to Drizzt or Pokemon or whatever other fad people have decided is the wrong kind of fun.


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I have never seen a Drizzt clone in the wild. I've seen plenty of good-aligned "dark elves" but none of them particularly evocative of the famous Forgotten Realms character.


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Charlie Brooks wrote:
I think it would be good for the community if we tried to stay open-minded and encouraged people to play what they want rather than immediately draw comparisons to Drizzt or Pokemon or whatever other fad people have decided is the wrong kind of fun.

There's a reason people bring up those fads.

Beyond that, it's one thing for the community to be open-minded and encourage people to play what they want, and another thing to make all those "open-minded" options core features. They're really not the same thing.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I've found players who want to play Drow consciously try not to evoke Drizzt. Specifically because they're worried other players will tease them for leaning into the trope of them misunderstood loner from an evil society.

Yet nobody makes fun of players who make Gandalf like wizards, or Aragorn style rangers.

I have always tried to instill in my players that there's nothing wrong with cliche, or using tropes express character. That their expression of a "Drizzt" or "Squee or Wonder Woman or whatever will be unique because:

A) They are appearing in this story, with this mix of companions.
B) My game isn't for publication, so copyright laws don't matter.
C) The very idea of ancestry (race) and class is specifically to try and evoke the tropes of fantasy genre stories.
D) There is no such thing as an original character in fantasy tabletop RPGs, only remixes of characters from popular fiction.

Liberty's Edge

Never made a Drizzt clone, but I did make a Tanis Half-Elven clone.

Which highlights the issue. Drizzt is a problem because of synergy between two factors. It's people making a clone of a popular literary character AND people playing a non-standard race. Just playing a two-weapon elf ranger isn't a problem, and neither is playing a good drow. But the combination of the two is troublesome.

Player goblins won't be as dramatic as Drizzt because there's no literary source. No character to copy.


Honestly, how is this Drizzt guy so popular that there are novels about him that sell in huge numbers, when all I see on the internet is disdain toward him?

I have not seen a single comment expressing affection for this character on the internet. I think I have seen over a hundred iterations of "Pffft..."


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I missed the whole anti-Drizzt thing (and still don't understand it). My first introduction was via the series of comics and I thought he was a great character, personally.


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I've never read a Drizzt book, or read a Drizzt comic. Everything I know about him I picked up through osmosis. From what I gather "he's a good aligned drow who is an angsty loner who is a ranger that dual-wields scimitars and he wins all the time because he is the protagonist in a series of fantasy novels."

Does that pretty much sum it up? None of that really seems more objectionable than "par for the course".


The Rot Grub wrote:

Honestly, how is this Drizzt guy so popular that there are novels about him that sell in huge numbers, when all I see on the internet is disdain toward him?

I have not seen a single comment expressing affection for this character on the internet. I think I have seen over a hundred iterations of "Pffft..."

Because he was everywhere back in the forgotten realms era. There's literally 30+ novels with the guy, most penned by R.A. Salvatore.

Who, in the opinion of many (myself included) is not a very good author.

And when people dislike something, they take to the internet. People that like it are too busy enjoying it to go comment.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I've never read a Drizzt book, or read a Drizzt comic. Everything I know about him I picked up through osmosis. From what I gather "he's a good aligned drow who is an angsty loner who is a ranger that dual-wields scimitars and he wins all the time because he is the protagonist in a series of fantasy novels."

Does that pretty much sum it up? None of that really seems more objectionable than "par for the course".

Well, the Drow part was pretty objectionable. It also meant loads of people wanted to play "good Drow", which was a whole thing.

There's a reason people call "good character from evil race" a Drizzt. The concept may have existed before, but he popularised it.


I never really saw any objections to Drizzt himself. What I have always seen objection to is the endless army of direct clones of Drizzt. The bottomless unending flood of dual-scimitar dark elf rangers who are all angsty good-aligned rebels against an evil society.

But really, it's not just Drizzt. There are just as many direct clones of Legolas and Sephiroth too. You can't really blame a given popular character for being popular. Instead of complaining about knockoff characters, it's more productive for individual GMs to instead gently guide starry-eyed newer players on tweaks they might make to a concept to make it their own.


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I feel like "I grew up in an evil, oppressive society but nonetheless turned towards the light and became a hero" is basically a layup for a character concept once you posit those societies exist.

I mean, Luke Skywalker wanted to be a Stormtrooper at the beginning of ANH...

Liberty's Edge

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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I feel like "I grew up in an evil, oppressive society but nonetheless turned towards the light and became a hero" is basically a layup for a character concept once you posit those societies exist.

I mean, Luke Skywalker wanted to be a Stormtrooper at the beginning of ANH...

No. He wanted to go to the Imperial Academy to learn how to be a pilot...after which he would drop out and join the Rebellion as had several of his friends.

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Fuzzypaws wrote:
I never really saw any objections to Drizzt himself. What I have always seen objection to is the endless army of direct clones of Drizzt. The bottomless unending flood of dual-scimitar dark elf rangers who are all angsty good-aligned rebels against an evil society.

I've certainly heard all about the multitudes of Drizzt clones. For the life of me, though, I've never actually seen one.


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The Rot Grub wrote:

Honestly, how is this Drizzt guy so popular that there are novels about him that sell in huge numbers, when all I see on the internet is disdain toward him?

I have not seen a single comment expressing affection for this character on the internet. I think I have seen over a hundred iterations of "Pffft..."

It is quite easy to like a character in a novel but tire of fellow players who want to play clones of that character in an RPG. A lot of us have different expectations for pre-written fiction vs. interactive social games.

I actually liked Drizzt in the 2 or 3 novels about him that I read, but I would never want to emulate him or any other single fictional character exactly in a game.

Liberty's Edge

Charlie Brooks wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
I never really saw any objections to Drizzt himself. What I have always seen objection to is the endless army of direct clones of Drizzt. The bottomless unending flood of dual-scimitar dark elf rangers who are all angsty good-aligned rebels against an evil society.
I've certainly heard all about the multitudes of Drizzt clones. For the life of me, though, I've never actually seen one.

I can actually imagine a spoof of Drizzt wielding something silly, like feather dusters, for humorous effect.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I have never seen a Drizzt clone in the wild. I've seen plenty of good-aligned "dark elves" but none of them particularly evocative of the famous Forgotten Realms character.

Often, the whole thing is a buzz word that the person complaining can't even accurately expound upon. In my experience, the people who rabidly hate on these alleged "Drizzt clones" are often far more toxic and harmful to a good game than the objects of their ire.

I like dark elves and I like the idea of going against the grain. As exceptional heroes are wont to do. That might take the form of my Drow Monk who seeks personal power out of a desire to personally throw down Lolth and break the tyrannical hold over her people. Or it might be a mischievous Drow Sorceress whose passion is only matched by her elemental power, facing gods and monsters for their secrets and for the love of a good challenge. Or maybe I have other ideas. Surely other players have just as many ideas.

Likewise, I'm feeling the same vibe here: Goblin hate is honestly far worse than the goblins themselves.


My second DnD character (and my favorite character of all time) was a Drow (my first was a human fighter, and I got bored with him REALLY quickly).

When I told my GM I wanted to play a Drow, he said, "So you want to play Drizzt?" My response was, "Who's Drizzt?" and he OK'd the idea right there.

Now that I have read half the Drizzt books, the only real similarities between Drizzt and my character are the race and escaping the Underdark.

Drizzt is a boy scout, dual scimitar Ranger, that ALWAYS does the right thing.

My character is a sword using sorcerer who thinks that the Drow are superior to all other humanoid races and that all they need is more structure and they would take over the world. He also thinks that he's the one to do it (as soon as he is strong enough to overthrow the Matriarchal Theocracy of the Underdark, that is.)

The point is, just because there is a common trope, doesn't mean everyone knows about it, or even wants to play that trope. Complaining about Goblins being a race because people may decide to play the "trope goblin" is like banning any other race/class because someone might play a trope character for that race/class.

If you want to ban trope characters at your table, go for it. I find that they are uninteresting and I push my players to come up with something new.

If you are playing in PFS, well I guess you're screwed. Paizo is the one that gets to determine what is and isn't okay for PFS, not anyone of us here.


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Lady Firebird wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I have never seen a Drizzt clone in the wild. I've seen plenty of good-aligned "dark elves" but none of them particularly evocative of the famous Forgotten Realms character.

Often, the whole thing is a buzz word that the person complaining can't even accurately expound upon. In my experience, the people who rabidly hate on these alleged "Drizzt clones" are often far more toxic and harmful to a good game than the objects of their ire.

I like dark elves and I like the idea of going against the grain. As exceptional heroes are wont to do. That might take the form of my Drow Monk who seeks personal power out of a desire to personally throw down Lolth and break the tyrannical hold over her people. Or it might be a mischievous Drow Sorceress whose passion is only matched by her elemental power, facing gods and monsters for their secrets and for the love of a good challenge. Or maybe I have other ideas. Surely other players have just as many ideas.

Likewise, I'm feeling the same vibe here: Goblin hate is honestly far worse than the goblins themselves.

The issues is when you can no longer claim to be "going against the grain" and it's not a single special snowflake but a blizzard of them. When you go to a tavern and can't swing a dead cat without hitting 16 heroic goblins and/or drow, to pushes credulity past the breaking point and ruins what 'playing against type' is.

That's the main issue with core goblins: how common they will be. So it's NOT goblin hatred but core goblin hatred. It's one thing if your goblin is a rarity for being able to get along with others but it's something entirely different when there is a flood of them.


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I mean, unless you have 16 players, there won't be 16 of anything in a given tavern unless you want there to be. So if there's a heroic drow and a goodie two shoes goblin in every single campaign, so what? It's not like they all take place at the same time in the same place.

Like I've been in a game with 5 Changeling PCs, and we managed to not interpret this as "Changelings make up a significant portion of the population of Ustalav" rather "this a group Changelings who found each other and banded together for mutual support because nobody else is liable to understand."


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The only Drow character I played was a chilled out dude that just didn't want to live under the terrible matriarchy. He also may have bedded a head priestess and stole her spider mount. Allegedly.


Steve Geddes wrote:
I missed the whole anti-Drizzt thing (and still don't understand it). My first introduction was via the series of comics and I thought he was a great character, personally.

I did read the first five books about Drizzt and his party. I'll explain. In the prequel trilogy, where he is growing up in the underdark, you really get to like him and the constant challenges he faces. He is low level and, while quite gifted, he sometimes gets his ass handed to him.

However, once he reaches the surface and hooks up with his party, things change. He can kill 1001 orcs in a single night long fight. His party's barbarian has a magical teleporting hammer way cooler than Mjölnir. One of the girl's has a magic bow that shoots lightning bolts (and is once used to carve a tunnel through a mountain). It's like reading bad fan fiction. I could no longer stomach it for long. Of course, 50 Shades of Grey also started out as a fan fiction, and it sold like 160 million copies. So, there ya go.

As for the goblins, I've been told by a couple friends that go to all the paizo cons that goblins are SUPER popular at the tables. The Pathfinder Goblins comics are also pretty fun. I'm not super exited to see them as a core race, but I've seen them in play more frequently than halfings. I do hope that they are rare to be adventurers in the lore, I'm not exited about seeing a gaggle of them in town, hanging out with drow and orcs.

At least we get to see how the races are going to be put together. I hope the racial feats are either better than they look, or free at certain levels. I doubt I'd ever touch any of those mentioned, except maybe the fire one, if I'm playing an alchemist.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I mean, unless you have 16 players, there won't be 16 of anything in a given tavern unless you want there to be. So if there's a heroic drow and a goodie two shoes goblin in every single campaign, so what? It's not like they all take place at the same time in the same place.

It's one thing if you play n a single home game: it actually seems rare. it's something entirely different when you're playing 3 different games at once and each has a heroic drow and goblin.

This also doesn't take into account NPC's. Core races get represented as them MUCH more than non-core ones. While you might not literally hit 16 heroic goblins in a bar, you might do so with NPC non-psychotic goblins and IMO that's just as bad for "going against the grain". It's goblins being common in urban areas that presents the issue.

PS: As to the Changeling PC's, I'm thinking the 'meet in the bar' set up without prior knowledge of each other. When 5 independent [insert rare race] walk into a bar it's unusual. When 5 one of a kind aberration, special snowflake "playing against the grain" goblins do... Yeah, I don't buy it.


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TheFinish wrote:

There's literally 30+ novels with [Drizz't], most penned by R.A. Salvatore.

Who, in the opinion of many (myself included) is not a very good author.

I can't speak to the Drizz't books, but Vector Prime [New Jedi Order] was really good


WhiteMagus2000 wrote:

I did read the first five books about Drizzt and his party. I'll explain. In the prequel trilogy, where he is growing up in the underdark, you really get to like him and the constant challenges he faces. He is low level and, while quite gifted, he sometimes gets his ass handed to him.

However, once he reaches the surface and hooks up with his party, things change. He can kill 1001 orcs in a single night long fight. His party's barbarian has a magical teleporting hammer way cooler than Mjölnir. One of the girl's has a magic bow that shoots lightning bolts (and is once used to carve a tunnel through a mountain). It's like reading bad fan fiction. I could no longer stomach it for long. Of course, 50 Shades of Grey also started out as a fan fiction, and it sold like 160 million copies. So, there ya go.

None of that (except 50 Shades) sounds all that bad to me. It depends on how its's done. I'll agree a character who is too Mary Suie-ish (itself a term that has lost of lot of distinction) can be annoying, but stuff like a bow that can shoot lightning bolts and blasts a tunnel through a mountain? That's cool. Very mythic feeling, the kind of thing I like in my high fantasy. I'm totally okay with that sort of thing.


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Lady Firebird wrote:
WhiteMagus2000 wrote:

I did read the first five books about Drizzt and his party. I'll explain. In the prequel trilogy, where he is growing up in the underdark, you really get to like him and the constant challenges he faces. He is low level and, while quite gifted, he sometimes gets his ass handed to him.

However, once he reaches the surface and hooks up with his party, things change. He can kill 1001 orcs in a single night long fight. His party's barbarian has a magical teleporting hammer way cooler than Mjölnir. One of the girl's has a magic bow that shoots lightning bolts (and is once used to carve a tunnel through a mountain). It's like reading bad fan fiction. I could no longer stomach it for long. Of course, 50 Shades of Grey also started out as a fan fiction, and it sold like 160 million copies. So, there ya go.
None of that (except 50 Shades) sounds all that bad to me. It depends on how its's done. I'll agree a character who is too Mary Suie-ish (itself a term that has lost of lot of distinction) can be annoying, but stuff like a bow that can shoot lightning bolts and blasts a tunnel through a mountain? That's cool. Very mythic feeling, the kind of thing I like in my high fantasy. I'm totally okay with that sort of thing.

These were given to characters that were basically all very low level (except maybe Drizzt). I personally think it's super cheesy to hand out artifacts to 2nd and 3rd level characters, but that's just me. And things only seemed to be getting sillier from there.

Anyway, that is where Drizzt gets his bad reputation.


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graystone wrote:
Lady Firebird wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I have never seen a Drizzt clone in the wild. I've seen plenty of good-aligned "dark elves" but none of them particularly evocative of the famous Forgotten Realms character.

Often, the whole thing is a buzz word that the person complaining can't even accurately expound upon. In my experience, the people who rabidly hate on these alleged "Drizzt clones" are often far more toxic and harmful to a good game than the objects of their ire.

I like dark elves and I like the idea of going against the grain. As exceptional heroes are wont to do. That might take the form of my Drow Monk who seeks personal power out of a desire to personally throw down Lolth and break the tyrannical hold over her people. Or it might be a mischievous Drow Sorceress whose passion is only matched by her elemental power, facing gods and monsters for their secrets and for the love of a good challenge. Or maybe I have other ideas. Surely other players have just as many ideas.

Likewise, I'm feeling the same vibe here: Goblin hate is honestly far worse than the goblins themselves.

The issues is when you can no longer claim to be "going against the grain" and it's not a single special snowflake but a blizzard of them. When you go to a tavern and can't swing a dead cat without hitting 16 heroic goblins and/or drow, to pushes credulity past the breaking point and ruins what 'playing against type' is.

That's the main issue with core goblins: how common they will be. So it's NOT goblin hatred but core goblin hatred. It's one thing if your goblin is a rarity for being able to get along with others but it's something entirely different when there is a flood of them.

I recall a joke game one of my old DM's ran in college. We were all playing angsty drow who were good and fighting the power, and after a desperaate mission to the underworld to find out what evil the now silent drow kingdoms were playing we found...

Empty kingdoms. All the Drow had become Angsty heroic antiheroes.
It had a very amusing encounter with a quite depressed avatar of Lloth who was playing solitaire in her main temple.


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gharlane wrote:
graystone wrote:
Lady Firebird wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I have never seen a Drizzt clone in the wild. I've seen plenty of good-aligned "dark elves" but none of them particularly evocative of the famous Forgotten Realms character.

Often, the whole thing is a buzz word that the person complaining can't even accurately expound upon. In my experience, the people who rabidly hate on these alleged "Drizzt clones" are often far more toxic and harmful to a good game than the objects of their ire.

I like dark elves and I like the idea of going against the grain. As exceptional heroes are wont to do. That might take the form of my Drow Monk who seeks personal power out of a desire to personally throw down Lolth and break the tyrannical hold over her people. Or it might be a mischievous Drow Sorceress whose passion is only matched by her elemental power, facing gods and monsters for their secrets and for the love of a good challenge. Or maybe I have other ideas. Surely other players have just as many ideas.

Likewise, I'm feeling the same vibe here: Goblin hate is honestly far worse than the goblins themselves.

The issues is when you can no longer claim to be "going against the grain" and it's not a single special snowflake but a blizzard of them. When you go to a tavern and can't swing a dead cat without hitting 16 heroic goblins and/or drow, to pushes credulity past the breaking point and ruins what 'playing against type' is.

That's the main issue with core goblins: how common they will be. So it's NOT goblin hatred but core goblin hatred. It's one thing if your goblin is a rarity for being able to get along with others but it's something entirely different when there is a flood of them.

I recall a joke game one of my old DM's ran in college. We were all playing angsty drow who were good and fighting the power, and after a desperaate mission to the underworld to find out what evil the now silent drow kingdoms were playing we found...

Empty kingdoms. All the Drow...

LOL That's pretty good and kind of what it seems goblin 2.0 if heading for...

'All the goblin lairs are empty and now every city, town and village is overrun with goblin refugees that have 'seen the light' and are now enlightened junk dealers... Now everyplace has a goblin slum filled with chimney sweeps, 'dog catchers' and garbage collectors...'


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I think a big difference between Drow and Goblins in terms of "playing good ones" is that in a really meaningful sense Drow act like they know they are better than you and want you to know it to whereas will readily resort to "groveling" or "subservience" if circumstances dictate.


Is there even a goblin equivalent of Drizzt? The only one I can think of currently is Styx from the games of the same name. He's definitely not as ubiquitous as Drizzt.

As for playing a clone character, it wholly depends on the intent behind the character. If the pre-existing character is merely a point of inspiration, I see no issues at all with that (arguably at that point it's no longer a "clone", but I'm willing to stretch the definition for the benefit of the discussion). One of my favourite PCs I've played was a dhampir heavily inspired by D from Vampire Hunter D. My character was much, MUCH, more talkative than D has ever been (in the movies at least), since I had specced him towards attaining Epic Bluff ranks (we were playing a 3.5/PF mish mash). I was close too. +42 or something in Bluff, but then T-Rexes started to fall from the sky...

An attempt to play as the pre-existing character can also work, as a self-imposed challenge to stick to an already defined character. I don't think it's something I would encourage at my table, however.

I've also never read a single actual work about Drizzt. I just know about him from people talking about him. I didn't even connect the now obvious reference to him in The Gamers until now...

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
graystone wrote:
Lady Firebird wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I have never seen a Drizzt clone in the wild. I've seen plenty of good-aligned "dark elves" but none of them particularly evocative of the famous Forgotten Realms character.

Often, the whole thing is a buzz word that the person complaining can't even accurately expound upon. In my experience, the people who rabidly hate on these alleged "Drizzt clones" are often far more toxic and harmful to a good game than the objects of their ire.

I like dark elves and I like the idea of going against the grain. As exceptional heroes are wont to do. That might take the form of my Drow Monk who seeks personal power out of a desire to personally throw down Lolth and break the tyrannical hold over her people. Or it might be a mischievous Drow Sorceress whose passion is only matched by her elemental power, facing gods and monsters for their secrets and for the love of a good challenge. Or maybe I have other ideas. Surely other players have just as many ideas.

Likewise, I'm feeling the same vibe here: Goblin hate is honestly far worse than the goblins themselves.

The issues is when you can no longer claim to be "going against the grain" and it's not a single special snowflake but a blizzard of them. When you go to a tavern and can't swing a dead cat without hitting 16 heroic goblins and/or drow, to pushes credulity past the breaking point and ruins what 'playing against type' is.

That's the main issue with core goblins: how common they will be. So it's NOT goblin hatred but core goblin hatred. It's one thing if your goblin is a rarity for being able to get along with others but it's something entirely different when there is a flood of them.

Does your table have 16 players, and will all of them pick goblins?

Golarion is already humano-centric. So your typical tavern is 90% human and 10% other (and some of that other is still part human). You can put 0 goblins in a tavern, and the PC goblin player could be the only goblin in the gavern and that's valid.

Half-Elves and Half-Orcs by definition should be super rare, yet they're in the Core Rulebook.

Your argument doesn't hold water.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There are three posible origins to the rehabilitation of the goblin race into polite society:

1) Drizz't Do'Goblin: goblin adventurers are outcasts, rebels from violent pyromaniac lives, who have taken refuge in human society and slowly adapt to its strange mores.

2) Nilbogs: an isolationist tribe of mushroom-farming goblins that eschew violence have just discovered a new market for their fungus products, and in opening commerce with humans, a few have become adventurers.

3) Paladin offcasts: Ever since presenting paladins with the moral ambiguity of goblin babies became popular, local orphanages have been getting more and more of these. A few of those goblin babies raised by kind elderly gnomes have turned out surprisingly well-balanced.

Whatever the logic cobbled together to support the premise of goblins as a core-rulebook PC race, there's little point in bemoaning it. Just embrace the murderous pyromaniacal glee!

Silver Crusade

Absalom is a cosmopolitan city and you'll find people of all alignments in it; I had some goblins in one corner of a particularly nasty dive bar once. The players were rather taken aback but it's entirely possible.


Jester David wrote:
Player goblins won't be as dramatic as Drizzt because there's no literary source. No character to copy.

Maybe not literary, but possibly Styx, Master of Shadows.

Midnight Anarch wrote:

PF2's goblins are the newest incarnation of Drizzt Do'Urdens at the table. You know what I'm talking about here.

It's not so much that goblins-as-core may give license to gray-area players, which is a minor but real consideration. It's that Paizo is ruining the lore and core appeal that made Pathfinder goblins attractive to players in the first place. And just like stupid drow, they did it to tap into some "mass marketing" appeal of them as a playable race.

Seems like a bad idea that Paizo, for some reason, positively adores.

Drizzt arguably made playable drow popular, but the derision aimed at knock-off Drizzt clones led to a wider diversity of drow character types. So if there is a problem with playable core goblins, it will likely be a short-term one and not a long-term one. I am far more interested in the latter than the former.


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LuZeke wrote:
Is there even a goblin equivalent of Drizzt? The only one I can think of currently is Styx from the games of the same name. He's definitely not as ubiquitous as Drizzt.

Styx is also an assassin who gleefully kills people and jokes about it. He's only a "hero" in the loosest sense of the word.

In that sense, a goblin acting like Styx would be very in keeping with Golarion (well, a very smart, focused Goblin, but still) but you'd run into the problem of it being disruptive in most parties.

Drizzt clones were common because he wasn't disruptive and he was "cool". No published goblin yet fits the bill, but we'll see.


Considering that the neo-goblins are supposed to be adorable scamps (blog: ”more often than not goblins' friends consider these qualities endearing”) rather than angsty outcasts, I believe more in the various comparisons with Kender than with Drizzt. :) :)


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TheFinish wrote:

Styx is also an assassin who gleefully kills people and jokes about it. He's only a "hero" in the loosest sense of the word.

In that sense, a goblin acting like Styx would be very in keeping with Golarion (well, a very smart, focused Goblin, but still) but you'd run into the problem of it being disruptive in most parties

Huh?

I'd estimate a quarter of the campaigns I've run had a PC that fit this description, and out of all those cases the only time it was 'disruptive' was when the party Paladin had a stick too far up the rectum.

Two of the non-disruptive cases also had Paladins (in one case the sociopathic pc was intentionally created for the interparty dynamic when she heard a Paly would be in the party)

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

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I remember reading a comic years ago that postulated that drow society was about 60% evil spider priestesses and about 40% chaotic good rebels.

I imagine we'll see quite a few goblins initially once PF2e comes out, then the popularity will settle down once the novelty wears off. There seems to be a population of gamers that find anything in the CRB "boring" that will drop goblins as options once they are a "normal" choice.


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kyrt-ryder wrote:
TheFinish wrote:

Styx is also an assassin who gleefully kills people and jokes about it. He's only a "hero" in the loosest sense of the word.

In that sense, a goblin acting like Styx would be very in keeping with Golarion (well, a very smart, focused Goblin, but still) but you'd run into the problem of it being disruptive in most parties

Huh?

I'd estimate a quarter of the campaigns I've run had a PC that fit this description, and out of all those cases the only time it was 'disruptive' was when the party Paladin had a stick too far up the rectum.

Two of the non-disruptive cases also had Paladins (in one case the sociopathic pc was intentionally created for the interparty dynamic when she heard a Paly would be in the party)

So your players routinely kill people for no reason whatsoever except that they can, betray each other, and constantly engage in the murder of Neutral/Good people in order to obtain money/power?

Because that's essentially what Styx does throughout both his games, plus Of Orcs and Men. And he does so gleefully.

He's the definition of a Neutral Evil character to a T.


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TheFinish wrote:

Styx is also an assassin who gleefully kills people and jokes about it. He's only a "hero" in the loosest sense of the word.

In that sense, a goblin acting like Styx would be very in keeping with Golarion (well, a very smart, focused Goblin, but still) but you'd run into the problem of it being disruptive in most parties.

The world that Styx inhabits is not one of Styx killing good honest people, but of surviving in a world of equally bad, if not worse, people. Styx lives in a world where humans, dwarves, and elves have conquered, oppressed, and enslaved the orcs and their lands.


TheFinish wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
TheFinish wrote:

Styx is also an assassin who gleefully kills people and jokes about it. He's only a "hero" in the loosest sense of the word.

In that sense, a goblin acting like Styx would be very in keeping with Golarion (well, a very smart, focused Goblin, but still) but you'd run into the problem of it being disruptive in most parties

Huh?

I'd estimate a quarter of the campaigns I've run had a PC that fit this description, and out of all those cases the only time it was 'disruptive' was when the party Paladin had a stick too far up the rectum.

Two of the non-disruptive cases also had Paladins (in one case the sociopathic pc was intentionally created for the interparty dynamic when she heard a Paly would be in the party)

So your players routinely kill people for no reason whatsoever except that they can, betray each other, and constantly engage in the murder of Neutral/Good people in order to obtain money/power?

Because that's essentially what Styx does throughout both his games, plus Of Orcs and Men. And he does so gleefully.

He's the definition of a Neutral Evil character to a T.

That's a whole lot more than

Quote:
Styx is also an assassin who gleefully kills people and jokes about it.

Neutral Evil can work quite well, but not to the extent described in your latest post.

Thank you for more information.

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