Pounce on Flying Targets


Rules Questions


Suppose my badass dire tiger is spider climbing on the ceiling 60' overhead. One of the PCs casts fly on herself and ascends towards the critter. On the tiger's next turn, it pounces the flying PC.

Does it get all of its attacks thanks to pounce? Does it get one attack and then fall past? Will it only get all of its attacks if it succeeds on its grab?

HOW DO?


Well if the tiger has a way to charge as a fall then yes other wise by the rules I'm not even sure it would get any attacks. I would allow it in a home game but past that I'm not sure if the rules support it.


Straight line to the floor bypassing flying creature? Then yes all your attacks. Charge rules dont give a s*!# if you are falling. You just need to go in a straight line towards the closest square adjacent to your target. Also during a line you may make one diagonal, so you can use that to position your fall/charge downwards. I hope you have boots of the cat though!


Not sure the rules have a clear answer on this.

As a GM, unless the tiger had a way to control it's movement (flight) I would let it get only one attack as it fell past the other flying creature.


3 dimensional combat in 3x has always been a pain in the arse.

By RAW sadly the dire kitty can't pounce, since charge is a special full round (or standard if you only have a standard) that requires you to STOP adjacent to your target before your attacks. And since creatures/objects fall at a rate of 500ft a round (see casting while falling) yer cat hits the ground well before it can even try to claw or bite.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Additionally charge requires you to MOVE (not just be in motion) but actually travel under your own power in a specific way. Falling moves you, but you are not moving in the sense of using your action to move somewhere.


And if the tiger where jumping from the floor to charge a flying creature? I see no reason it should work jumping against gravity but not with it. If you would allow a jumping charge, you should allow this. Get em Tigger.


Well based on the reading of one of the Mythic abilities you can't Charge upward.

Aerial Assault

You can charge at creatures in the air, or leap across obstacles as part of a charge. When making a charge attack, you can expend one use of mythic power to include a single Acrobatics check made to jump, adding 10 feet per tier to the height or distance you jump. You take no falling damage from the height gained as part of this leap. If your attack hits, you may deal an amount of additional damage equal to the falling damage appropriate for the height you reached. Alternatively, you may replace your melee attack from this charge with a grapple check. If you successfully grapple a creature, you bring it to the ground with you at the end of your jump, and it takes an appropriate amount of falling damage for the height it was at when you grappled it.


One reading of a mythic ability does not a good rule make.

Edit: Janni Rush gives you bonuses when you jump while charging, without giving any ability to do so, thus implying you can.

As does Branch Pounce

Branch Pounce wrote:
When charging a target by jumping down from above (such as when jumping out of a tree)...


Branch pounce is going down and attacking at ground level. Janni rush gives a bonus on jumping when charging but not to avoid terrain or attack an opponent in the air, which is what Aerial Assault does.


The tiger could jump up and do it, right? It would stop next to the target at the apex of it's jump, thus ending it's movement. Makes his pounce attacks. Then falls, which isn't related to his movement action as part of the charge, right?

I know that's not the question, but it's good to clarify so we are all on the same page.


VoodistMonk wrote:

The tiger could jump up and do it, right? It would stop next to the target at the apex of it's jump, thus ending it's movement. Makes his pounce attacks. Then falls, which isn't related to his movement action as part of the charge, right?

I know that's not the question, but it's good to clarify so we are all on the same page.

Based on the above text of Aerial Assault no it could possibly jump and attack though even that is iffy without spring attack.


You can charge by jumping down from above as noted in branch pounce. It does not say you have to land and then attack them, thar would be a direct violation of the charge rules and common sense. Find something that says you cant attack while falling. There is clearly a rule for not being able to CAST while falling, so not having anything about not being able to attack would be a strange oversight.


Of course you can attack whilst falling.

I thought the only thing in question here was whether or not there is enough time more the multiple attacks allowed with pounce.

What if you land ON them? Assuming their flight can support your weight, you would stop/land and nothing is keeping you from making your full attack, right?


Attacking while falling and charging while falling are 2 different things completely.


That is the literal definition of pouncing... to swoop down or jump upon something and claw it. People are being difficult with no good cause for it.


Talonhawke wrote:
Attacking while falling and charging while falling are 2 different things completely.

And branch pounce clearly notes that fall-charging is a thing.

Edit: Correction; jumping down from above charging. If you accidentally slip, maybe you can't charge.

But if you can walk on the ceiling, you should be able to jump while doing so.


You mean no good claws for it.

Pounce is a feature used by martial characters, so everyone will do what they can to nerf it as much as possible.

No, if you want to do stuff in this game you have to be a 9th level caster. Then you get to do whatever you want, and the game still gives you a backrub and a happy ending.

An animal jumping down on its target and attacking with its claws? No way. That is impossible. It never happens, definitely not allowed in a fantasy game.

Probably should have been a wizard.


toastedamphibian wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
Attacking while falling and charging while falling are 2 different things completely.

And branch pounce clearly notes that fall-charging is a thing.

Edit: Correction; jumping down from above charging. If you accidentally slip, maybe you can't charge.

But if you can walk on the ceiling, you should be able to jump while doing so.

Branch pounce is for a target on the ground though not for a target in mid-air which means it is still for attacking at the end of movement and not mid-way. Which was my reasoning why you can't charge a flying target without something to let you.


He isn't attacking midway through a movement or midway through his charge. Falling after completing the charge doesn't count as his movement in any way shape or form!


Talonhawke wrote:
toastedamphibian wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
Attacking while falling and charging while falling are 2 different things completely.

And branch pounce clearly notes that fall-charging is a thing.

Edit: Correction; jumping down from above charging. If you accidentally slip, maybe you can't charge.

But if you can walk on the ceiling, you should be able to jump while doing so.

Branch pounce is for a target on the ground though not for a target in mid-air which means it is still for attacking at the end of movement and not mid-way. Which was my reasoning why you can't charge a flying target without something to let you.

Doesn't require you to target an opponent on the ground with your charge.

Also as pointed out, Janni Rush mentions that you can jump as part of a charge (not due to the feat), so that you can charge a flying person. (you would fall after the charge.)

In addition I'd allow the charge because rule of cool, and the fact that you will only ever have this happen once in a combat (unless wierd shenanigans i guess).


How does Branch Pounce not require that you have to land adjacent to them, landing on the ground sure landing on air? You land in an unoccupied square of your choosing adjacent to the target

Janni Rush does say that but it doesn't say that you can end your movement in a square not the closest to your target it merely says you can jump as part of the charge. But lets assume for a moment you are correct and it allows me to negate this rule or even better that there isn't a rule against this and everyone who has every had this discussion is an idiot. The DC alone is prohibitive enough to prevent the ground jump even if the rules don't since without Janni style or a similar abiltiy your not making a running jump and have to double the DC which is a 40 to meet the 10ft of movement required for a charge.

Now I notice the only response that Aerial Assault gets only a "One ability doesn't mean anything", when we are now arguing that 2 abilities means you can. And Aerial Assault literally says "You can charge at creatures in the air, or leap across obstacles as part of a charge" there is no vague reading needed or assumptions this unlocks an ability not previously had.

Then we have the velociraptor which if we can just make jump checks willy-nilly has a useless ability. Water Leaper's have an ability that lets them ignore changes in altitude as part of determining the straight line clause of a charge which being able to jump around as you please would make useless.

As to rule of cool I acknowledged in the second post I would allow it.


Talonhawke wrote:
How does Branch Pounce not require that you have to land adjacent to them, landing on the ground sure landing on air? You land in an unoccupied square of your choosing adjacent to the target

3 dimensional game, you have 26 adjacent squares (if medium). I could choose to land in a square above them.


You can't LAND in the air. No if that's gonna be your argument then I have nothing more to say. And no you can't land on their head unless you can show me what ability is allowing you to manage that one.


When it comes to the topic of three dimensional space, you inevitably end up talking MOVING and MOVEMENT in that space.

This is a huge mistake.

Pathfinder doesn't allow movement of any kind unless it comes from spells. Then, do whatever you want.

Without magic, this game might as well just say everyone has a base speed of ZERO.

You may only take a 5' step, but only after a feat with a dexterity requirement and the prerequisite of being able to cast spells.


1. Quoting a mythic feat is just not grounds for crap. Mythic feats are designed to break rules that already exist in many cases. The one you cited let's you add/adjust three things to the move, while quoting things you can do normally. You could always jump while charging, to clear a small obstacle of something, if you fail the jump check you fail your charge and stop. Jumping down is also a valid charge, falling does not cost your move, its left over, so you hit, then fall, if you take fall damage, you fall prone, sucks to be you.

2. It is entirely possible to make a 40+ vertical no running start leap up to charge. I've done it on a cavalier, who ha a level of hunter. Cheetah sprint multiplies your land speed by 10 as enchancement bonus, applying for the bonus to increases speed for jumping checked, my axebeak can easily clear that vertical leap, with spider climb, i will stick to the ceiling, next turn, I charge back down to the ground. My bird usually falls prone, and i have to swift dismount. But as a cvannonabller, my target is usually dead on the way up, and definitely dead on the way back down...


Evilserran wrote:
2. It is entirely possible to make a 40+ vertical no running start leap up to charge. I've done it on a cavalier, who ha a level of hunter. Cheetah sprint multiplies your land speed by 10 as enchancement bonus, applying for the bonus to increases speed for jumping checked, my axebeak can easily clear that vertical leap, with spider climb, i will stick to the ceiling, next turn, I charge back down to the ground. My bird usually falls prone, and i have to swift dismount. But as a cvannonabller, my target is usually dead on the way up, and definitely dead on the way back down...

You are correct in that you can jump as part of a charge, and that would allow the cat to pounce on the flyer, because pathfinder gravity only works after an action causes you to fall. I was under the impression that OP's kitty was just letting gravity do all the work from the roof.


Still have to obey straight line restrictions and have to obtain 10 of movement in that straight line. So doubtful many jumping charges will actually get the running bonus without an ability like Janni Style.

EVIL SERREN
1. Quoting any rule that allows you to do something that isn't listed as possible elsewhere shows what is needed to allow that rule to function. That's how the rules work and I agree and have in the past you can attempt those checks as long as the rest of the rules for charging are adhered to. As to jumping down charging requires you to stop in the closest square which you can't do unless your flying regardless of falling afterward or not. Now if they are on the ground you might be able to meet the preqs for a charge that way, but no one has posted a rule that allows you to break the conditions for a charge.

2. 40ft vertical with out a running start is a DC160 check. Assuming a 30ft base speed you get a 108 bonus to the check meaning that a 52 is needed so on average you need an additional +42 to make that check. As for your axe beak yes if your can cast cheetah sprint on it then yeah its got a nice little bonus to that check. I didn't say no way was it happening just that it's not gonna be super common.


tRUE, NOT COMMON, BUT TOTALLY ACHIEVEABLE

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Claxon wrote:

Not sure the rules have a clear answer on this.

As a GM, unless the tiger had a way to control it's movement (flight) I would let it get only one attack as it fell past the other flying creature.

Wrong. The rules require you to take the charge action and falling isn't a charge action.

PRD wrote:
Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

Air walk allow you to charge a target in the air at your level or lower (not higher, as increasing your height count as difficult terrain*).

*I don't really agree with "increasing your height by a 5' feet over a 50' movement count as difficult terrain", but rule wise you do that in a single square, not along a gentle incline.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
toastedamphibian wrote:
You can charge by jumping down from above as noted in branch pounce. It does not say you have to land and then attack them, thar would be a direct violation of the charge rules and common sense. Find something that says you cant attack while falling. There is clearly a rule for not being able to CAST while falling, so not having anything about not being able to attack would be a strange oversight.

That feat seem to assume that, but please, find a rule that allow you to do that. The base pounce and charge rule don't allow it.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
willuwontu wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
How does Branch Pounce not require that you have to land adjacent to them, landing on the ground sure landing on air? You land in an unoccupied square of your choosing adjacent to the target
3 dimensional game, you have 26 adjacent squares (if medium). I could choose to land in a square above them.

So now landing mean "passing through a point in the air while falling"?

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
VoodistMonk wrote:

When it comes to the topic of three dimensional space, you inevitably end up talking MOVING and MOVEMENT in that space.

This is a huge mistake.

Pathfinder doesn't allow movement of any kind unless it comes from spells. Then, do whatever you want.

Without magic, this game might as well just say everyone has a base speed of ZERO.

You may only take a 5' step, but only after a feat with a dexterity requirement and the prerequisite of being able to cast spells.

You are ranting again. Please try to keep your calm.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Not sure the rules have a clear answer on this.

As a GM, unless the tiger had a way to control it's movement (flight) I would let it get only one attack as it fell past the other flying creature.

Wrong. The rules require you to take the charge action and falling isn't a charge action.

That doesn't say I'm wrong.

It says you must charge. It's unclear whether or not you can charge down in uncontrolled movement.

As you note, branch pounce feat seems to assume you can, granting no special ability to do so, it just gives you a way to reduce falling damage (seemingly).

So yes, it's unclear.

But regardless of all that, at best the tiger (not capable of flight) would only be able to make 1 attack IMO, as it charge/falls past the other creature.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Claxon wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Not sure the rules have a clear answer on this.

As a GM, unless the tiger had a way to control it's movement (flight) I would let it get only one attack as it fell past the other flying creature.

Wrong. The rules require you to take the charge action and falling isn't a charge action.

That doesn't say I'm wrong.

It says you must charge. It's unclear whether or not you can charge down in uncontrolled movement.

As you note, branch pounce feat seems to assume you can, granting no special ability to do so, it just gives you a way to reduce falling damage (seemingly).

So yes, it's unclear.

But regardless of all that, at best the tiger (not capable of flight) would only be able to make 1 attack IMO, as it charge/falls past the other creature.

PRD wrote:

Charge

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

A special full round action, not falling, that is not at action at all.

Now let's look the restrictions:

PRD wrote:


Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after.

So, even if we take as real that falling is movement from the point of view of the rules (it isn't), you need to stop when you attack. The falling tiger can't do that.

PRD wrote:


You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.

You must move, not fall.

PRD wrote:

If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles).

With some stretching and willfully blindness "air" is not an obstacle. It is a difficult terrain if you don't have a fly speed, but it seem that people is more than willingly to overlook that.

PRD wrote:
You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.

If you can move to a square adjacent to the target in a direct line, doing it by falling there is not a problem for this piece of the rules.

PRD wrote:


If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.

You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.

If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.

No problem here.

PRD wrote:


Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

After moving ... so, even if we consider it as movement, you must have completed your fall before attacking. So you can't attack unless you have a way to stop your fall mid air.

PRD wrote:


A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.

Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.

Lances and Charge Attacks: A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.

Weapons Readied against a Charge: Spears, tridents, and other weapons with the brace feature deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.

Not relevant.

It seem you are overlooking a "few" things in your desire of pouncing someone mid fall.

Then let's examine your statement "It says you must charge. It's unclear whether or not you can charge down in uncontrolled movement.

As you note, branch pounce feat seems to assume you can, granting no special ability to do so, it just gives you a way to reduce falling damage (seemingly)."

D20 PFSRD wrote:


Branch Pounce (Combat)

You are adept at exploiting higher ground to its greatest advantage in battle, and can leap from above to deal incredible damage to your foes.

Prerequisites: Climb 3 ranks, Stealth 3 ranks.

Benefit: When charging a target by jumping down from above (such as when jumping out of a tree), you can soften your fall with a melee attack. If the attack at the end of your charge hits, the attack deals damage as normal and you also deal the amount of falling damage appropriate to your fall to the target (1d6 points for a 10-foot fall, 2d6 points for a 20-foot fall, and so on). This falling damage is not multiplied on a critical hit. You land in an unoccupied square of your choosing adjacent to the target, and you take falling damage as if your fall had been 10 feet shorter. You can attempt an Acrobatics check as normal to treat the fall as an additional 10 feet shorter for the purpose of determining the damage you take from the fall. If your attack misses, you land prone in a random square adjacent to the target and automatically take the full amount of falling damage.

You are disproved by the first row of text of the benefits: "when you ae jumping". That isn't an uncontrolled fall, it is a controlled jump. And a controlled jump is limited and part of your movement. So to be a valid action, the jump shouldn't longer than your movement as it is part of the movement (read the rules about jumping).

Then "If the attack at the end of your charge hits". Again, the attack is at the end of the charge, not mid air.

Essentially, your argument work only if we totally disregard the existing rules.


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Diego Rossi wrote:

You are disproved by the first row of text of the benefits: "when you ae jumping". That isn't an uncontrolled fall, it is a controlled jump. And a controlled jump is limited and part of your movement. So to be a valid action, the jump shouldn't longer than your movement as it is part of the movement (read the rules about jumping).

Then "If the attack at the end of your charge hits". Again, the attack is at the end of the charge, not mid air.

Except, as by the OP, the tiger has spider climb, so it is not falling necessarily, it could have jumped off the ceiling towards the flying PC.

Personally, as the PC is in the air and the tiger cannot stop adjacent to the PC, I'd say he couldn't pounce, but could do a Bull Rush, which if he failed a Fly check would send him to the ground (as per collision in Fly skill).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
bhampton wrote:


Personally, as the PC is in the air and the tiger cannot stop adjacent to the PC, I'd say he couldn't pounce, but could do a Bull Rush, which if he failed a Fly check would send him to the ground (as per collision in Fly skill).

Bull rush is perfectly acceptable to me, with some penalty if you haven't a way to direct your fall. The fly skill or acrobatic should help in some way in guiding your fall but I doubt a tiger will be able to use them that way unless it has learned an appropriate trick.

Well, I will have problems with a tiger accepting to fall 60' to make a bull rush. An AC isn't a robot or dominated. They need a specific trick to attack unnatural targets, so it reasonable to ask them to learn a specific trick to try this kind of maneuver.


Diego: Is jumping moving? Because you can intentionally jump down. You could make the tigger roll acrobatics to achieve the necessary height, but seeing as the goal is negative height, that would be a negative DC...


Diego Rossi wrote:
It says you must charge. It's unclear whether or not you can charge down in uncontrolled movement.

Does not say you cannot.

Quote:
But regardless of all that, at best the tiger (not capable of flight) would only be able to make 1 attack IMO, as it charge/falls past the other creature.

You have presented no support for that.

PRD wrote:


Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after.

Declare Charge Action. As part of charge action, Move. Acrobatics check to Jump -20ft without running start. DC -160. Autoc Success.

Falling wrote:
And if the character leaps down with a successful Acrobatics check...
Acrobatics wrote:
Action: None. An Acrobatics check is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.

Leaping down as part of a charge action: AOK

Quote:
So, even if we take as real that falling is movement from the point of view of the rules (it isn't), you need to stop when you attack. The falling tiger can't do that.

Charge>Jump Down>Pounce>Fall

PRD wrote:


You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.

Jump down.

PRD wrote:

If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles).

Air does not hinder movement in the downward direction.

Quote:

You are disproved by the first row of text of the benefits: "when you ae jumping". That isn't an uncontrolled fall, it is a controlled jump. And a controlled jump is limited and part of your movement. So to be a valid action, the jump shouldn't longer than your movement as it is part of the movement (read the rules about jumping).

Then "If the attack at the end of your charge hits". Again, the attack is at the end of the charge, not mid air.

The feat is clearly saying to make the attack first, and then use your success or failure to determine the effects of landing. You don't land, take your fall damage, find out if your prone or not, then make an attack roll to reduce the damage you already took and see if you land prone or not. You attack from the first cube you can reach them from, which if falling, is almost certainly not "the ground".

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