So I'm thinking about resonance all day and have come to the following conclusions. Hear me out.
1. Magic items spamming isn't the problem. It's a symptom of another problem which is simply that spell casters are gimped compared to our perceptions of them. At no point in Arthurian legends, Harry Potter, the Lord of the rings, etc. do we ever hear the main characters say "I'm sorry Hermione I wish I could help you but I'm just low on spell slots of that level."
2. Potions and other consumables don't really fit with our perceptions of them either. For example, in mythological stories potions can have long durations and are frequently created and then consumed. There always done on a by need basis – whether that need his immediate or some point down the line. Whether it's a potion that puts sleeping beauty to sleep or polymorphs someone back into their regular self you always go to the wizard and he creates it as a unique item.
3. The combination of one and two means that high-level parties value the spell slots that their spell-casters have. As a result they don't spend them frivolously when they know they can achieve the same effect for a small gold piece cost. This results in the spamming of low-level magic items at high levels which itself causes suspension of disbelief and breaking of immersion with these ridiculously over encumbered characters.
The simplest solution to all of this is to redesign wands and potions so that they cannot be spammed. Perhaps wands need to be attuned to a specific character ala Harry Potter. Perhaps potions need to be more like alchemists bombs or elixirs in that if they are not used they become inert after 24 hours.
More importantly, if we want to cut off the problem at the base that we need to address the Vancian caster problem without resorting to a 15 minute work day. The simplest way to do this is to increase the number of spells at third level or below that spell casters get at each level. Obviously spit-balling here, but the final total could be double 1st to 3rd level spells for a caster? Maybe more? Maybe less? One thing that's always confused me is how a wizard who has been casting magic missile for 20 levels still manages to forget it every day.
Ideally, for flexibility sake – the wizard and sorcerer class should both be abandoned in favor of the Arcanist class. The Arcanist is an excellent design of flexibility and utility and would serve as a great baseline for a Pathfinder 2.0 nine level arcane spell class.
Now I know this is going to be divisive but consider this all within the scope of the reduced damage potential that spells do in 2.0. And keep in mind that your average wizard by 20th level will have access to some kind of ring of wizardry which doubles his spells anyway (for a certain level).
If Paizo is looking to return magic back to the characters and away from the items then they have to do something to pick up the shortfall. There are three possibilities:
1. Reduce the daily load to a 15 minute work day. No one wants this because it oversimplifies the game and everyone uses their nova spells for every combat.
2. Dumb down all the monster abilities. Again no one wants this because it oversimplifies the game and in particular kills a lot of the uncertainty in combat.
3. Give casters the tools that they need to do their jobs. No caster needs more than two or three ninth level spells a day and no one needs "wish". But what they do need is the ability to do those low-level utility spells pretty much at will once they hit level 15 or higher. This is not to say they should have them at will, but with the exception of the long, end boss dungeons they shouldn't be going into their first combat jealously guarding their limited resources or doing so little damage that doesn't matter. We've seen now that fighters will be doing extra dice of damage for each numerical bonus on a weapon and we know that they will get extra attacks that will reasonably hit. I don't think it's unreasonable to see a 15th level fighter doing 8d6 of damage each round. Whereas the wizard won't be able to match that due to the lack of spell slots.(Ignoring for the moment the fact that the wizard spells can be saved for half and fighters melee attacks can't).
So yeah, resonance (as we understand it) needs to be taken back to task. It doesn't solve the problem, because the problem is trying to solve isn't a problem – it's a symptom of another problem. Solve that problem and resonance becomes unnecessary.
thanks for listening.
Id prefer they keep resonance and give casters scaling cantrips to work as the caster xbow. Leave higher level slots for utility, control, buff, and AOE damage. /not signed.
I agree that casters need a bit more versatility. My point is that the low level magic item spamming and the versatility issue are intertwined. Solve the latter and the former goes away.
It would definitely be nice for spellcasters to get more useful progressive at-wills - definitely more than 4E or 5E - so they can participate all day. It might also be nice to have a separate set of spells per day slots / mana just for utility spells, distinct from the spells per day / mana usable on combat spells.
I doubt we'll get that though.
We most assuredly won't get a second set of spell slots if they're trying to streamline the game (and that's the claim). The best that can be hoped for is more spell slots. But i don't think that's possible. This is definitely turning into a low-magic setting.
How can you present an alternative to something that has not even be presented in a preview?
How can you present an alternative to something that has not even be presented in a preview?
Resonance has been talked about a bunch already in podcasts and on the boards.
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It's a symptom of another problem which is simply that spell casters are gimped compared to our perceptions of them. At no point in Arthurian legends, Harry Potter, the Lord of the rings, etc. do we ever hear the main characters say "I'm sorry Hermione I wish I could help you but I'm just low on spell slots of that level."
To me it's the other way around. Gandalf, Merlin, and so on seem to cast far fewer powerful spells than the average level 5 wizard. They don't casually fly or launch fireballs or use unlimited cantrips.
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I agree that casters need a bit more versatility.
Casters are the ones that need more versatility?
What exactly is the basis for PF2 turning into a low magic setting?
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How can you present an alternative to something that has not even be presented in a preview?we kinda changed the threads topic mate as this is know how to expend casters instead of alternative resonance.
On this topic, some of the things I like about 5e and Spheres of Power are rituals, rituals allow to cast utility spells out of combat without needing to spend a spell slot, leaving more of the spell slots to be used during combat or in time pressure situations. I just will rename them to something different than rituals like incantations or something because I like rituals to be the spell analogous to artifacts.
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What exactly is the basis for PF2 turning into a low magic setting?
Given that PF2 is Golarion infused I will not count on having low magic rules in core, or at all.
Resonance has been talked about a bunch already in podcasts and on the boards.
None of which provide a complete picture, however.
We know so little about, for example, how spells work in PF2 that it's kind of pointless to offer alternative solutions at this point.
I agree that casters need a bit more versatility. My point is that the low level magic item spamming and the versatility issue are intertwined. Solve the latter and the former goes away.
That doesn't match my experience. Casters particularly prepared casters are the very essence of versatility. It's classes like slayers that lack options.
What exactly is the basis for PF2 turning into a low magic setting?
The most obvious example is potions, etc. being tied to resonance. There's also weapon abilities tied to resonance (i.e. the flaming attribute of a sword costs 1 point). Based on that, if you extrapolate, then pretty much anything that's "active use" will be tied to resonance. Want to use a wand? One point. A staff? One point. Want to use the 3x/day magic attached to your ring? Point.
Burn through enough points and you run the risk of burning out the inherent connection to your armor and weapon as well as preventing yourself from receiving the benefit of magical items (except spells, I think) until you rest.
The result will be that magical items will be viewed with distrust and used less. This will put more of a stress on spell-casting classes to make up the slack. But spellcasters already are overtasked with insufficient resources and now their damage is going to be nerfed. Which means that the arcane casters will be reduced to buffing martials and divine casters reduced to healing martials if for no other reason than they won't be encouraged to sit at the table unless they accept the "new normal".
Who's going to want to play that? Who's going to play Billy the Buffer who casts haste on the heroes and then goes and sits in the corner while the excitement occurs?
I agree that casters need a bit more versatility. My point is that the low level magic item spamming and the versatility issue are intertwined. Solve the latter and the former goes away.That doesn't match my experience. Casters particularly prepared casters are the very essence of versatility. It's classes like slayers that lack options.
I agree that all the classes need help in one way or another. A lot of the martial classes could do with an increase in skill points. Of course a lot of the classes could be folded into one or two classes, with the old classes as archetypes. Arcanist could (should?) be the default arcane caster class, with Wizard and sorcerer as archetypes thereof.
With respect to prepared casters - prepared casters are only great if they know ahead of time what to prepare for. And they are still limited by their slots. Unless you play with a 15 minute adventuring day. In which case, they are very overpowered.
Personally, I don't play in that kind of a setting. Our days are long and we use the whole part of the player character... like our 1st Edition forefathers did! :P
Resonance has been talked about a bunch already in podcasts and on the boards.None of which provide a complete picture, however.
We know so little about, for example, how spells work in PF2 that it's kind of pointless to offer alternative solutions at this point.
We won't have a complete picture until the final rules come out in the summer of 2019.
Whether you agree with my suggestions or not, I think we can concur that summer 2019 is a tad late to suggest changes, yes? ;)
What exactly is the basis for PF2 turning into a low magic setting?The most obvious example is potions, etc. being tied to resonance. There's also weapon abilities tied to resonance (i.e. the flaming attribute of a sword costs 1 point). Based on that, if you extrapolate, then pretty much anything that's "active use" will be tied to resonance. Want to use a wand? One point. A staff? One point. Want to use the 3x/day magic attached to your ring? Point.
Burn through enough points and you run the risk of burning out the inherent connection to your armor and weapon as well as preventing yourself from receiving the benefit of magical items (except spells, I think) until you rest.
The result will be that magical items will be viewed with distrust and used less. This will put more of a stress on spell-casting classes to make up the slack. But spellcasters already are overtasked with insufficient resources and now their damage is going to be nerfed. Which means that the arcane casters will be reduced to buffing martials and divine casters reduced to healing martials if for no other reason than they won't be encouraged to sit at the table unless they accept the "new normal".
Who's going to want to play that? Who's going to play Billy the Buffer who casts haste on the heroes and then goes and sits in the corner while the excitement occurs?
Well, being that Bard is my favorite class, I guess I love to be billy the buffer. Though I think you are jumping to conclusions here. The devs have stated that Paizo has been running a closed playtest for some time and nobody complained about lack of resonance. They also mentioned that a barbarian was an excellent healer so Id put caster over-tasking on the back burner for now.
With respect to prepared casters - prepared casters are only great if they know ahead of time what to prepare for. And they are still limited by their slots. Unless you play with a 15 minute adventuring day. In which case, they are very overpowered.
Personally, I don't play in that kind of a setting. Our days are long and we use the whole part of the player character... like our 1st Edition forefathers did! :P
If that were true you would have a better understanding of attrition and resource managment.
(For context, the Barbarian character invested in being a good healer through means outside of their class. They didn't change Barbarian to a healer class or something.)
(For context, the Barbarian character invested in being a good healer through means outside of their class. They didn't change Barbarian to a healer class or something.)
That remains to be seen. I'm guessing skill proficiency unlocks in healing.
(For context, the Barbarian character invested in being a good healer through means outside of their class. They didn't change Barbarian to a healer class or something.)That remains to be seen. I'm guessing skill proficiency unlocks in healing.
They did confirm that the Barbarian's healing wasn't based on class, nor was it based on items. (The Fighter and Ranger did all right using items.)
Give casters the option of regaining some lower-level spells/slots when they rest for a while.
Make a similar mechanic for other classes' abilities.
And let characters heal (to an extent) when they take a break.
So they still have to plan when to use their most powerful spells, but can still contribute unless don't have a chance to rest.
They can expend every resource at their disposal if needed, but then they are exhausted and need to unwind.
No need to spam CLW on every character, but heals are still needed on more serious wounds.
And the 15-minutes workday is less likely to happen.
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Casters' low-level spells need some scaling, too. It always feels bad when your 1st level spells become entirely useless because the DC is just too low for anything to fail. Not to mention Sleep, which is good for about 1 level before being unable to affect anything that might theoretically threaten you.
From what I understand all of your spells will have the same DC no matter what level they are.
Low level spells won't "scale" damage wise, however if it's similar to Starfinder they'll begin at their "ceiling" of damage (so burning hands starts at 5d4).