(Re)Defining the Level Up Process

[kyrt-ryder]

Part of the problem I see in this board is cognitive dissonance regarding levels.

Some of the player base, such as myself, view levels as personal evolution. As becoming something greater, transcending the previous state of being into a higher state. As an actual physical transfiguration from being ‘level X’ to ‘level X+1’

Meanwhile others seem to view levels as primarily a reflection of simple experience and training, of learning to do things better.

Below I explain why I feel my own perspective is the one that most accurately reflects the current game.

Disclaimer:

I have very very little experience with D&D prior to 3.0, 3.0 is where I got my start and since I began playing I have only joined a few scattered sessions of Retro D&D. My knowledge is primarily assimilation from other posters here and on other boards.

Pathfinder can be seen as a descendant of Dungeons and Dragons, but many players and GMs still perceive leveling up in the same manner as AD&D.

Back in AD&D, ‘leveling’ was simply coalescing your experiences with the next stage of training. It was coming back to civilization, finding a trainer and learning the next stage. This is reinforced by the hit dice cap, at a certain point you just don’t get any better at mitigating/enduring/overcoming damage. You’re merely a mortal learning to do your thing better.

When Dungeons and Dragons 3.0 came out, levels no longer require going back to town for further education. They need only a good night’s sleep and BAM, you have risen to the next level. No matter how high a level you reach [so long as there are more levels to gain] your hit points continue to increase as does your skill ranks cap. In 3rd Edition Experience Yield is based on APL vs CR, the more challenging the encounter for the party the greater the experience gained, or the reverse, curbstomp battles yield less experience.

Come Pathfinder 1 and Experience Points no longer care about the level of the party. The party simply grows as a result of overcoming the challenges.

Bear in mind, Pathfinder Characters gradually transcend human limitations whether you like it or not. Surviving contact with lava, reliably surviving tremendous falls (possibly changed in PF2), wrestling Rhinos, the list goes on and on.

[CrystalSeas]

That doesn't sound like "cognitive dissonance" at all. Cognitive dissonance is when an individual believes two contradictory things at the same time.

Perhaps you meant something else? Like "disagreement" which is when two different people believe different things?

[kyrt-ryder]

I am implying someone is looking at levels and seeing something that isn't there

[CrystalSeas]

So if you see levels as "personal evolution", and the other people see levels as "experience and training", how is that "something that isn't there"?

I'm still not sure I understand what point you're trying to make.

[Mudfoot]

I infer that the OP means that levelling up is some sort of mystical inner growth thing like transcending to a higher plane and all that. And (I'm guessing here) it therefore means that high level martials should get mystical powers, because mystical.

Which is a reasonable excuse for martials to get Nice Things, I suppose.

[ChibiNyan]

Anything that can be used to explain the level-up we have to make sense is good in my book. Good mechanics and gameplay come first, then the logic to explain them.

[kyrt-ryder]

Mudfoot wrote:

I infer that the OP means that levelling up is some sort of mystical inner growth thing like transcending to a higher plane and all that.

Both inner and outer, a literal [subtle] physical transfiguration which enables the character to become more powerful than before.

Call is mystical if you like, I view it as a more natural process for those who tap into their potential in order to advance in level, but that's a matter of personal preference/perspective.

[Orville Redenbacher]

2018 is shaping up to be a really odd year. What with WOTC riding on tradition with get back to D&D of yesteryear edition, and Paizo designing an innovative supers system.

[Fuzzypaws]

The implication has always been training. If you're a mystical character like a sorcerer or monk and want to flavor it as personal evolution, that's great, run with that! But that doesn't fit everyone.

[QuidEst]

I enjoyed Strange Aeons- you could have leveling partially represent unlocking more repressed skills.

[kyrt-ryder]

Fuzzypaws wrote:

The implication has always been training.

Mind explaining how ordinary training helps a character endure contact with lava or (at least in the case of PF1) falling from orbit?

Now if you're referring to the sort of Training from Hell that helps a hero break his limits and rise to the next level then that seems to lean more towards my argument (except requires training arcs between levels, I like dramatic level ups mid-combat or after a retreat or such.)

[Diego Valdez]

Removed a post and some replies to it. There are a lot of ways to imagine something, and in this case all of them subjective. Please do not argue that someone is using their imagination incorrectly.

[Lord Mhoram]

I have always views XP/leveling as training. The fact taht you get it in the dungeon instantly in 3.P doesn't change that. As a metaphor, you take a karate class, and you have a kick you have been practicing, but it's still slower than normal as you work out the kinks. Then when sparring it feels natural, and all of sudden you pop the kick out perfectly. You have that moment of insight that lets the training be used in a realistic situation. You happened to level up that morning.

Also from 1st edition D&D I always viewed martials as Conan, Aragorn, Sir Madolloran, even going to Herecles or Cu Chulain. They coudl do things that were near superhuman or superhuman to begin with, due to skill, training, bloodline, etc etc. So the fact people can "all of a sudden" fall from orbit, never bothered me, it was part and parcel of the genre.

The abiltiy to train to become able to fall from orbit isn't in the training, it's in the character, and genre. The training is an excuse for it showing up.

As a general rule, I never liked low fantasy or swords and sorcery, I liked my fantasty Epic, so that fit right in (and shapes) how I view my fantasy RPGs. Not surprisingly I detest level 1-2, and really feel like the game comes alive around 5th level.