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It really seems odd that the monster gets to decide what happens to them.
Why does this work on mindless creatures? Seems broken to me.
Anyway, yes I will always use the resistance option. Maybe this should be the only option available.
It is a matter of roleplay as well, do they falter infront of the champion's supernatural ability or choose to attack through it. I would have mindless always choose to attack through it but have the supernatural ability still impact them (as per RAW). As to why, it is supernatural, it is a game universe where constructs can develop spontaneous intelligence and there is literally an Ai god.
Also enfeebled 2 is more than just -2 damage, it is also reducing the chance to hit and crit, this results in a pretty big damage reduction, especially for monsters. It lasts until the END of its [bold]next[/bold] turn.
That is -2 to str attacks, damage, crit range for up to 5 attacks... and your ally still takes less damage. If the enemy has AoO or flurry type abilities that could be more than 5 attacks. On a strong enemy this is generally way better than the target not doing damage once.
And then, we have weight of guilt. Which afflicts stupified 2 instead and is disgustingly good against spellcasters or if you have a will save targeting caster.
And in the mid levels you have lasting doubt which gives you 1min duration of enfeebled and stupified after the first round is complete (although stupified ends after the flat check stops a spell sadly, still)
Simply put, you are undervaluing the impact of enfeebled 2.
Also, apparently this works on zombies, skeletons and other mindless monsters. Seriously??
As someone who loves the concept of the redeemer class, I despise that it can work on mindless creatures
I don’t care if it’s insanely OP and powerful, when I play redeemer I will NEVER use the reaction on something mindless. It doesn’t make sense.
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I agree with many of the other posters, enemies still get the choice which option applies to them.
It is also worth mentioning, that mindless enemies still react to things, like environmental conditions, attacks etc.
mindless (trait) A mindless creature has either programmed or rudimentary mental attributes. Most, if not all, of their mental ability modifiers are –5. They are immune to all mental effects.
Though the reaction does not have the mental trait anyway, so I would not worry too much about it.
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It's certainly odd, but it's not hard to give explanations.
- "Mindless" creatures still generally make some sort of decisions. A zombie chooses which person to try and bite. Generally, if a mindless creature is attacking, something like Glimpse of Redemption isn't going to dissuade it, so I would automatically select the enfeebled option.
- This is a tiny bit of divine intervention, even if it's not a deity consciously doing it. Can Shelyn not allow their champion to appeal to an animated broom's nature as a tool for making spaces more beautiful?
As for how good it is, it's once per round until the Champion gets extra reactions, it's limited range, and it can't be used by the Champion on themselves. Multiple enemies, ranged enemies, and attacking the Champion are all ways the game expects the ability to be limited.
Also worth noting that the penalties from Enfeebled don't stack with Frightened.
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Mindless creatures attack through Glimpse. That's how I do it. They don't care and the redeemer energy works against them.
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For cannon fodder monsters, they likely won't last enough for Enfeebled 2 to make much of a difference in a fight. Meanwhile, since they typically come en masse, their allies chop away w/o worry. A Reaction being a setback for one minion is about par, compare to an Attack of Opportunity.
Even Shield Block does well to neutralize a peon's threat.
On the other end, bosses, hopefully the party's piling on debuffs (if they know what's effective and have an inkling of teamwork). Many of those will be Status debuffs like Enfeebled, meaning their effects don't stack. So while Glimpse of Redemption is a great way to achieve this, it also requires specific placement of the Champion & their allies. Does a squishy really want to be that close to the Champion who's likely adjacent to the boss? A fierce boss will often have good mobility, ranged attacks, AoEs, spells, and other abilities which make a Champion's life rough. (And a boss that simply stays put and slugs it out sound pretty boring IMO.)
Not that I'm downplaying Champion Reactions because they are among the best in the game. But the Champion also gets little in the way of damage buffs while every other martial has foundational/signature damage increasing abilities (or an attack increase in the case of the Fighter which translates into the best damage in most cases). That "I'm the defensive guy who hits less well" would be an ineffective role if enemies could ignore them until the end. They need these defensive Reactions to keep contributing.
It really seems odd that the monster gets to decide what happens to them.
I think it makes sense in the context of the cause
It’s about redemption and all that, it’s about offering a foe a choice to either stop attacking or suffer an effect or attack less efficiently
Why does this work on mindless creatures? Seems broken to me.
Yeah. It shouldn’t work on mindless creatures. It doesn’t make any sense. I said this earlier but when I play redeemer I will never use it on mindless creatures
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Yeah. It shouldn’t work on mindless creatures. It doesn’t make any sense. I said this earlier but when I play redeemer I will never use it on mindless creatures
Why does this work on mindless creatures? Seems broken to me.
You did say this before. I read it both times.
Others disagree. That's fine.
I also disagree. While the GM may choose to have the creature mindlessly attack, forbidding the Champion from using the reaction on a mindless creature would be a balance problem. So if you personally don't want to even use the reaction on something that you know is mindless, don't try to force that flavor on other tables.
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The short answer to "why does it work on mindless creatures?" is pretty much just that right now, paladin, redeemer and liberator are pretty well on par with each other, and that's preferable to having redeemer be solidly weaker than the others.
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It's worth noting that in the setting, Skeletons, zombies, puppets, and oozes all have a chance to become "mind-ful." Maybe you are giving them that chance.
Would be a cool origin for a Skeleton PC, "I was another mindless minion until a Redeemer gave me a chance, and now I give that chance to others"
Even a mindless creature that senses something it is unfamiliar with may well react to it in some way.
Such creatures can't care about personal redemption, but they are able to get distracted by the magical stimulation that they suddenly find themselves sensing. Ergo, I'd argue the penalty makes sense. It's just all in the way you look at it.
As for balance considerations, I ask this: If champions didn't have their reactions, would anyone really bother playing the class?
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Even if mindless characters can't make the decision it can still take the consequences part of "repent or suffer the consequences."
Like if you put out a bear trap and say "Hey if you walk forward you'll walk into my trap" a creature not being able to understand you wouldn't make them immune to the trap if they stepped in it.
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I just started gm-ing pf2. A player has a champion with Glimpse of Redemption reaction. This trivializes every encounter as there is always a successful hit by a monster nullified. Just wait until the boss fight! The boss will never be able to harm the pcs!
Also, apparently this works on zombies, skeletons and other mindless monsters. Seriously??
Hey new GM!
I empathize. My initial reaction to powerful new PC abilities is sometimes the same as yours, thanks in part to years of 1e which wasn't always super balanced.
It's something I've worked on and don't always succeed right away, but I can tell you that 2e is very well-balanced. There are definitely moments when things like a Champion Reaction can trivialize an encounter, but they don't come by super often.
Instead of discussing specifics I want to generally encourage you to let players have their fun things and see how it goes. Welcome to 2e.
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I prefer to base a creature's choice for Glimpse of Redemption over whether the creature is redeemable instead of what is most tactically advantageous for the creature. Zombies are not, but neither are demons and a variety of monsters and monstrous people. This is a pretty good way to support the Redeemer's tenants.
I prefer to base a creature's choice for Glimpse of Redemption over whether the creature is redeemable instead of what is most tactically advantageous for the creature. Zombies are not, but neither are demons and a variety of monsters and monstrous people. This is a pretty good way to support the Redeemer's tenants.
This is also a thing I like to do.