Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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As long as d20pfsrd stays online with Pathfinder Classic I'll have all I'll need for years to come. Sure, I'd like to see some of the current 3PP's continue making good products for PF Classic, but I know that's pretty much a pipe dream.
I don't think is a pipe dream for some of the current 3PP's to keep making good products for PF1. Certainly some will move on to PF2 entirely, but some may well make both PF1 and PF2 versions of products, as long as they keep selling!
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As long as d20pfsrd stays online with Pathfinder Classic I'll have all I'll need for years to come. Sure, I'd like to see some of the current 3PP's continue making good products for PF Classic, but I know that's pretty much a pipe dream.
There's also still a year and a half before the new edition drops, and many third-party publishers and designers aren't spending that time sitting on their hands!
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Kobold Press has at least 3 new, major Pathfinder 1 releases:
Midgard Player's Guide hardcover
New Paths Compendium: Expanded Edition hardcover
Midgard Pathfinder GM Screen (a landscape screen, no less! :)
Folks interested in keeping the PF1 flame burning are encouraged to check these new releases out!!!
If the PF1 books are still being printed and the srd is still online, you could reasonably just extend the life of PF1 by buying a backlog of third party books. There's enough of that to represent another decade of PF1 releases and that's just the objectively good ones. The only thing desirable from Paizo would be Campaign Setting books and PF2 and PF1 can just share those since they're mostly Golarion fluff.
Depending on how polished you are okay with a product being, at this point practically every sort of rule and niche probably has SOME support among the 3rd party providers. Part of me would be surprised if that fact didn't also play a role in a new edition as well. Hard to come up with novel designs that are not going to be seen as rip offs with one billion 3rd party products out there.
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DragonWing Games will continue to develop material for "Classic Pathfinder" for the foreseeable future. Once we've had an opportunity to examine the new PF2E, we will likely support it also in both print and electronic formats. It all depends on how it is received and what the market dictates.
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Steve Creech
Head Dragon
DragonWing Games
Raging Swan Press
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The people at your favorite Torch Carrier Third Party Company might, however, actually, like Pathfinder Second Edition, and prefer to publish for that.
Companies also go where the money is. Current edition Pathfinder 3pp sales have been plummeting for a while now; I actually know several 3pp companies who were already pulling out of the Pathfinder market before this announcement was made, and Pathfinder Kickstarter funding has been trending consistently down. Meanwhile, both Starfinder and 5E have been wildly successful, with growing consumer bases and really strong 3pp sales.
Realistically, some of the most popular 3pp companies out there right now might actually be able to stay in business specifically because PF 2E is coming out, from a combination of boosted sales from the market that doesn't want to convert, and from the opportunities inherent in a new edition being released.
This is an interesting comment.
For what it is worth, at Raging Swan Press we haven't seen plummeting Pathfinder sales--in fact every year (with one exception) is better than the year before. What we have seen is very poor sales at Paizo.com for Pathfinder material. That's been the case for several years now and coincided generally with the start of our Patreon campaign. On the flip side of the coin, our sales at OBS are stellar and our Patron has been successful beyond my wildest (but not most depraved) dreams.
For all that, I am cautiously optimistic about the new edition. As Michael says there are tons of opportunities inbound but until I see the mechanics and work out if I actually like the new system or not I can't say whether Raging Swan Press will support it.
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What we have seen is very poor sales at Paizo.com for Pathfinder material.
This. Our Pathfinder sales at Paizo.com are downright abysmal. Our Pathfinder sales at the Open Gaming Store passed Paizo.com a while ago.
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Almost like Paizo's site is kinda terrible.
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This. Our Pathfinder sales at Paizo.com are downright abysmal. Our Pathfinder sales at the Open Gaming Store passed Paizo.com a while ago.
Huh. So weird. 'Cuz almost without fail I won't buy an item if it's not available here.
And everyone else is exactly like me. <Grin>
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I prefer to buy from Drivethru RPG. It just feels easier to browse, read reviews and add items of interest to one's wishlist in comparison to the Paizo site. I also recall someone saying that publishers get a smaller cut of sales from Paizo.com as well.
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I also prefer the POD options, which Paizo doesn't offer on a lot of books.
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I prefer to buy from Drivethru RPG. It just feels easier to browse, read reviews and add items of interest to one's wishlist in comparison to the Paizo site. I also recall someone saying that publishers get a smaller cut of sales from Paizo.com as well.
I have been told that drivethru actually has one of the worst cuts for the publishers (barring exclusives and other factors). Open gaming store is supposed to be better.
All second-hand info though.
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Here's my question for our valued 3PP folks here: will you continue with PF1 content or are you looking more towards a full switch to PF2?
I don't need a PF1.5 (D&D3.875), but I'm not sure I'm sold yet on PF2 based on what I've seen so far.
I understand creating content for SW, PF1, PF2 and 5E could start to become cost prohibitive quickly. I'm just checking the waters now, fully understanding they could be completely different around PF2 launch.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I prefer to buy from Drivethru RPG. It just feels easier to browse, read reviews and add items of interest to one's wishlist in comparison to the Paizo site. I also recall someone saying that publishers get a smaller cut of sales from Paizo.com as well.
Paizo actually gives a better cut than Drivethru on PDFs:
Open Gaming Store gives 80%
Paizo gives 75%
DrivethruRPG gives 65%
DrivethruRPG (DM's Guild for 5E) gives 50%
Print products are different:
Open Gaming gives 70%
DrivethruRPG gives 65%
Paizo gives 50%
Print products sold through Paizo are sold on consignment, which means you send an allotment of books there and you get paid as they get sold. For products that you aren't sure are going to sell many print copies, you might choose not to list them for sale in print at Paizo because you are paying the hard cost to print and ship them to Paizo and you carry that cost until the books sell.
That's similar to how selling books through Amazon works - you list the books for sale and ship them into Amazon distribution centers, but you don't actually get paid until/unless they sell. Amazon also charges you a storage fee based on the space you use. Paizo does not.
Companies that have their own storefront, like Legendary Games does, get the most bang for their buck from sales there, as you might guess; we only lose around 4-6% on processing fees and retain the rest. It also allows a company to print and/or ship books as orders happen rather than guessing ahead of time and hoping they sell.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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What we have seen is very poor sales at Paizo.com for Pathfinder material.This. Our Pathfinder sales at Paizo.com are downright abysmal. Our Pathfinder sales at the Open Gaming Store passed Paizo.com a while ago.
For quite a while, our Paizo sales typically outstripped OBS by 2 or 3 to 1. Around the time we started publishing more 5E stuff, OBS started to catch up and eventually passed Paizo a year or so ago. Paizo sales *mostly* stayed within a fairly stable variance range of a few hundred dollars up or down from average. There was a slow drift down, but it definitely has accelerated so far in 2018. A couple of months ago was our worst Paizo month in a long while (less from Paizo than from sales on our own website), and this month just past dropped below even that, and were barely a quarter our sales on DrivethruRPG.
I was most surprised with the poor sales of Starfinder products on Paizo.com. I could sort of understand a certain Pathfinder fatigue after 10 years, but you'd think the Paizo store would have been the epicenter of Starfinder excitement. SF sales here compared to other sites, though, were not impressive.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Here's my question for our valued 3PP folks here: will you continue with PF1 content or are you looking more towards a full switch to PF2?
I don't need a PF1.5 (D&D3.875), but I'm not sure I'm sold yet on PF2 based on what I've seen so far.
I understand creating content for SW, PF1, PF2 and 5E could start to become cost prohibitive quickly. I'm just checking the waters now, fully understanding they could be completely different around PF2 launch.
Legendary Games will continue with PF1 sales for now, and after PF2 comes out we'll see what the sales numbers tell us. Sometimes you make products that have fans who *really* like them, but overall sales just aren't enough to make it worth continuing them. I think there *probably* is going to be sufficient interest in PF1 to continue producing products for it at least for a while. Whether it continues or peters out remains to be seen.
Savage Worlds is a good comparison. It's a game that is quite popular in some parts of the USA and elsewhere, but doesn't have the same market presence as PF or 5E. We've produced a number of SW products so far, and while sales haven't been impressive to this point we will continue to invest up to a certain critical mass point to see whether that turns the corner as more stuff from us is available. After a certain point, we'll either keep doing it or stop. Sometimes you've just gotta let the grass grow and see what comes.
That's similar to how selling books through Amazon works - you list the books for sale and ship them into Amazon distribution centers, but you don't actually get paid until/unless they sell. Amazon also charges you a storage fee based on the space you use. Paizo does not.
If you do your books on Amazon CreateSpace, they do it on POD can you don't have to pay for storage. You get paid like 30% or something. I forget.
Here's my question for our valued 3PP folks here: will you continue with PF1 content or are you looking more towards a full switch to PF2?
Short answer: The market and the playtest will answer that one for us.
Long answer: You're really asking 2 things there: will be continue to publish PF1 content, and will we start publishing PF2 content next year when allowed?
PF1: As things stand right now, we have 1 adventure we will be publishing and another we may not be publishing. We're not sure yet. If sales of our current products stay as low as they have been for the latter half of this month, we will be cancelling it. If they pick up, that will change. Heck if things go crazy you'll see us make radical changes to our publishing schedule. But I don't expect that. I expect we'll be publishing 1 more adventure.
PF2: If we fall in love with the system, we'll be making products for it like crazy. If we feel it is meh, we may just stick with 5e, 13th Age, and Traveller. And there's a whole range in between. Are we formulating plans for the "love it" possibility? Oh yes. Monsters. Races (ahem, Ancestries). Class Options. Classes (yes, I said classes). Words of Power. We've got ideas cooking. And a secret plan I came up with this past weekend that will pretty much make every other publisher go, "Why the heck didn't I think of that?!?" in the same way we did for making Kingmaker designed supplements and other publishers started publishing for adventure paths.
All of this depends on how great or terrible sales are and if we love the new system.
Huh. So weird. 'Cuz almost without fail I won't buy an item if it's not available here.
Well you can find all our stuff right here including a level 16 adventure released last month that is really awesome that you should check out right away!
And yeah, it'd be stellar if someone Paizo'd Paizo and continued the line (or, dare I say, even a 3.875?)
I hope I'm wrong about New 'n' Pathy!. I hope it's amazingly fun. But if I'm not wrong, I can take my own advice and just ignore the new stuff. There's nobody kicking down the door and confiscating my Pathfinder books. : D
I'd be more inclined for PF1.1
There are some areas that could stand to be cleans up a little.
- Spells like Spiritual Weapon that have legacy wording (e.g. based on WIS, instead of "casting stat").
- Stealth: clarify exactly how to resolve stealth and attacking from stealth.
- Keywords: precisely defined meanings with no ambiguity.
- Incorporate Psychic magic as a basic magic type - this touches many areas (spells, magic items, etc.)
All in all, it would be less change than going from 3.5 -> PF1e. No significant changes to gameplay, just cleaner rules text. Compatibility of at least 95% straight out of the box.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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That's similar to how selling books through Amazon works - you list the books for sale and ship them into Amazon distribution centers, but you don't actually get paid until/unless they sell. Amazon also charges you a storage fee based on the space you use. Paizo does not.If you do your books on Amazon CreateSpace, they do it on POD can you don't have to pay for storage. You get paid like 30% or something. I forget.
Oh sure, I meant if you inbound hardbacks from a print run to sell through Amazon.
The percentage on softcovers through Amazon CreateSpace is pretty weak (it varies depending on which venue a person uses to buy your POD book), but once you've got stuff up there it stays up there and just keeps selling when it sells. Heck, this past month we made more from books sold on CreateSpace than we did at Paizo.
CreateSpace is also a funny platform in that it's really hit and miss which books catch on and which don't. You may have some titles that rarely if ever sell, and you may have other similar titles that sell a bunch. The algorithms are pretty opaque. Page count also matters - there's a page count at which it becomes almost pointless to sell on Amazon for the cost per page vs. printing on DrivethruRPG. You also are limited to softcovers, where you can do hardbacks through OBS.
It's definitely been a productive sales venue for us over the years, though.
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As a little bit of context, our sales at OBS outperformed sales at Paizo by about 7 to 1 last month. A couple of years ago, sales on both sites were basically neck and neck. I'm not sure what happened, but something happened!
When I buy one of your bundles over there, it knows which ones that I already have and deducts them from the bundle price. Makes it much easier to avoid buying something that you've bought previously by mistake.
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Huh. So weird. 'Cuz almost without fail I won't buy an item if it's not available here.
That's likely going to be an issue over time. Right now a few companies aren't dealing with Paizo's site any more for reasons that are their own. They preferred the percentage they were getting over other sites, but things didn't work out and now they stay away. Depending on relationships, that may or may not continue as PF2 becomes the norm. Just a head's up that you might need to be more open in the future.
Here's my question for our valued 3PP folks here: will you continue with PF1 content or are you looking more towards a full switch to PF2?
I'm hoping to do PF1 content for a long time, but as Dale and the others have mentioned, it's all a matter of what the sales dictate. If the majority of the sales say PF1 is still going strong, great. If it's a much lower percentage, then you have to go where the money does. The question back though is, what would people wants? Adventures? More classes? Archetypes? Races? Feats? Spells? A mix of everything? That'll also be something that will have to be asked regularly, especially if sales aren't that great.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Here's my question for our valued 3PP folks here: will you continue with PF1 content or are you looking more towards a full switch to PF2?I'm hoping to do PF1 content for a long time, but as Dale and the others have mentioned, it's all a matter of what the sales dictate. If the majority of the sales say PF1 is still going strong, great. If it's a much lower percentage, then you have to go where the money does. The question back though is, what would people wants? Adventures? More classes? Archetypes? Races? Feats? Spells? A mix of everything? That'll also be something that will have to be asked regularly, especially if sales aren't that great.
This is an excellent point. If sales are generally down, it'll be more important for publishers to avoid risk. If your ceiling is lower, you want your floor to be higher, as it's harder to make things pay off in general if you don't have much expectation of successful products being able to balance out less-successful products.
If anything, Pathfinder's popularity and 10 years of existence will work against it. Developing a product for a random small game (even one with smaller audience size once many transfer over to 2e) will more likely have a higher return on investment than Pathfinder 1e. Because any new PF1e product will compete with all 10 years of history, it means that any product will be lower than the fore-mentioned smaller game.
If anything, Pathfinder's popularity and 10 years of existence will work against it. Developing a product for a random small game (even one with smaller audience size once many transfer over to 2e) will more likely have a higher return on investment than Pathfinder 1e. Because any new PF1e product will compete with all 10 years of history, it means that any product will be lower than the fore-mentioned smaller game.
Meh, I disagree with this. Most of the people I know who collect 3rd party material tend to buy their content of interest regardless of how saturated the market is, myself included. Heck, I know one guy who has every warlock/faux warlock material for Pathfinder out there, homebrew stuff included. And trust me, there are a lot of warlock proxies out their for Pathfinder. If you make something that has its fans they will buy it, regardless if they have rules for it or not. Then again my extended circle of gamers and myself might just have compulsory urges to buy but that is just my two cents.
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If the PF1 books are still being printed and the srd is still online, you could reasonably just extend the life of PF1 by buying a backlog of third party books. There's enough of that to represent another decade of PF1 releases and that's just the objectively good ones. The only thing desirable from Paizo would be Campaign Setting books and PF2 and PF1 can just share those since they're mostly Golarion fluff.In all honesty, it won't be hard to find PF1 stuff on the secondary market for the indefinite future. Plenty of overstock and used copies on Amazon and elsewhere. And my FLGS, for instance, has a good selection of used RPG books.
Ebay and Amazon exist. I've bought a whole string of 2nd Ed ADnD and even 1st ed ADnD in the last year- with very few exceptions of books that were either super popular but with a short print run or very niche and small even in their first print run everything can be had for a reasonable to reasonable-ish price.
If the PF1 books are still being printed and the srd is still online, you could reasonably just extend the life of PF1 by buying a backlog of third party books. There's enough of that to represent another decade of PF1 releases and that's just the objectively good ones. The only thing desirable from Paizo would be Campaign Setting books and PF2 and PF1 can just share those since they're mostly Golarion fluff.Depending on how polished you are okay with a product being, at this point practically every sort of rule and niche probably has SOME support among the 3rd party providers. Part of me would be surprised if that fact didn't also play a role in a new edition as well. Hard to come up with novel designs that are not going to be seen as rip offs with one billion 3rd party products out there.
I wish I had more time nowadays. I started writing PF1 retrospectives but that kind of fell on the wayside.
Basically relooking at each of the Pathfinder RPG books as well as third party products that I consider make Pathfinder 'more complete'. For example, things like New Paths Compendium, Advance Bestiary, and Ultimate Psionics are what I think would make believable actual releases that extend the logic of the game, while Spheres of Power, Path of War, and Thunderscape, things I still really like drastically alters tone or balance, and books that drastically improve things but aren't available as fat books/have a narrow class focus are discounted.
This. Our Pathfinder sales at Paizo.com are downright abysmal. Our Pathfinder sales at the Open Gaming Store passed Paizo.com a while ago.Huh. So weird. 'Cuz almost without fail I won't buy an item if it's not available here.
I'll echo what Dale says. DragonWing makes more in overall sales at other online store sites than here. I'm even starting to see growing direct sales on the DragonWing online webstore (which makes me really happy). Every one of our releases are available here on the day they are released yet despite attempts at more of a social media presence here, there just isn't a lot of sales.
However, I will keep selling Pathfinder products here for as long as we continue to produce them. That also applies to the upcoming Starfinder goodies we have in the pipeline.
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Steve Creech
Head Dragon
DragonWing Games
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My Spheres of Might book came in today and got me thinking. Pathfinder is a pretty complete game.with what's out there I can spend a lot of time before I get bored so I don't need a new game that's more of the same. Out of all the third party stuff, Spheres of Power/Might have been the most well received items in terms of straight replacement options. I haven't had enough time with Might but Power has been more fun and more flexible than most magic systems in Pathfinder and the only book where I bought multiple copies for myself to support it at my table and copies for strangers just to convince them that it's good.
I would fully support a sphere based RPG built on an altered Pathfinder chassis. Not even all the martial and magic spheres need to make it, or even the classes. Just enough to build a core rulebook recreate the Fighter as a full practitioner and the wizard as a flexible high caster and fill in grids from there.
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My Spheres of Might book came in today and got me thinking. Pathfinder is a pretty complete game.with what's out there I can spend a lot of time before I get bored so I don't need a new game that's more of the same. Out of all the third party stuff, Spheres of Power/Might have been the most well received items in terms of straight replacement options. I haven't had enough time with Might but Power has been more fun and more flexible than most magic systems in Pathfinder and the only book where I bought multiple copies for myself to support it at my table and copies for strangers just to convince them that it's good.
I would fully support a sphere based RPG built on an altered Pathfinder chassis. Not even all the martial and magic spheres need to make it, or even the classes. Just enough to build a core rulebook recreate the Fighter as a full practitioner and the wizard as a flexible high caster and fill in grids from there.
Don't think we haven't thought about this.
Don't think we haven't thought about this.My Spheres of Might book came in today and got me thinking. Pathfinder is a pretty complete game.with what's out there I can spend a lot of time before I get bored so I don't need a new game that's more of the same. Out of all the third party stuff, Spheres of Power/Might have been the most well received items in terms of straight replacement options. I haven't had enough time with Might but Power has been more fun and more flexible than most magic systems in Pathfinder and the only book where I bought multiple copies for myself to support it at my table and copies for strangers just to convince them that it's good.
I would fully support a sphere based RPG built on an altered Pathfinder chassis. Not even all the martial and magic spheres need to make it, or even the classes. Just enough to build a core rulebook recreate the Fighter as a full practitioner and the wizard as a flexible high caster and fill in grids from there.
Is your Legendary Cavalier (was it cavalier?) still in the works or was it removed from the menu?
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I think Drop Dead Studios with spheres, Rogue Genius Games wit Talented series, and Legendary games have the most promising material for a 3.8 ruleset. DDS, RGG, and LG all have spectacular alternatives to core classes to the point that I wish they'd be their own system so they can be the default. Even if it's small scale and not meant to compete with Pathfinder 2.0 I would overwhelmingly support a Sphere system above a 2.0 conversion or rewrite.
Oddly I can't say the same for Dreamscarred Press because they tend to produce things I want IN Pathfinder as opposed to replacement options.
If people still want to play PF-1e, they will.
Heck, I've recently played an AD&D 1e game, using a combination of vintage books and the OSRIC website.
I really don't think it will be going away.
Anyway, I'm reserving judgement until I've done some playtesting, which I'm really looking forward to at Paizocon later this month.
I think Drop Dead Studios with spheres, Rogue Genius Games wit Talented series, and Legendary games have the most promising material for a 3.8 ruleset. DDS, RGG, and LG all have spectacular alternatives to core classes to the point that I wish they'd be their own system so they can be the default. Even if it's small scale and not meant to compete with Pathfinder 2.0 I would overwhelmingly support a Sphere system above a 2.0 conversion or rewrite.
Oddly I can't say the same for Dreamscarred Press because they tend to produce things I want IN Pathfinder as opposed to replacement options.
They could probably just create a new printing of the rules-set only replacing their own options for core ones. That way things are backwards-compatible.
And by "they" I mean "whoever felt like doing it".
I'd be all for this but I think spheres presents an opportunity due to how it functions. Specifically magic in spheres of power had a lower word count due to not having a bunch of spells so streamlining other parts of the game that spheres has to worry about because the rest of the game exists can potentially make everything less lengthy and more inclusive from the get-go. That opportunity opens up a few more things like defining monsters as creature type advancement plus talents making monster easier to create and opens up classes that want monster talents.
But I'm just spitballing here.
Legendary Games should merge mythic rules into a new core and release a new Core book.
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I know I'm late to the party but:
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At this time, I intend to keep playing PF1 - but I don't need any publishers to release new material for it. There's quite enough already for me to keep playing for decades.
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My prediction is that just like in the days of AD&D, we will see many 2nd edition products labeled "1st ed compatible". Not from Paizo, they want (for economical reasons) to bury 1st edition asap, but 3pp companies will want to benefit from both userbases and if Paizo makes 2nd edition totally incompatible with 1st, they risk repeating the mistake WotC did with D&D 4th edition. Pathfinder (unlike windows) does not have a nag screen reminding you to upgrade (writing this post from windows 8.1 >_< )
Wouldn't it be ironic if WotC decides to jump into the pathfinder 1st edition retro-bandwagon?
Personally, I've been hoping PF2 would happen soon, so I sure won't keep buying PF1 materials, except for stuff like setting books that should mostly carry over.
I'd have no interest in continuing this ruleset. I'd rather just switch to 5e and ditch Pathfinder if PF2 ends up being something I don't like. (Although I have a feeling I may like it a lot)
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I would fully support a sphere based RPG built on an altered Pathfinder chassis...
I'm in for $50-$300 to help a Kickstarter based on Spheres/Glory Rogue/etc for a single core book that could be used as an overlay for original 3e/3.5e/PF adventure material that could be handed to players with everything from Drop Dead in one place alongside a pruning/revising of core PHB/CRB material.
I haven't made a non-5e purchase in a while but if there's something I could use for my groups, it'd be a nice book or PDF I can hand out (or request player purchasing) and say "when we're playing 3e, we'll do it this way" which builds on the 18 years of accumulated wisdom since 3rd edition was released.
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I've recently been doing searches for companies still writing generic Pathfinder 1e material. I found this on the search. I really hate PF2e and prefer more PF1e material and I'm not having much luck finding someone who is carrying the torch so I can give them my support. If people can offer suggestions, let me know.
Thank you.
What kind of products are you looking for? More races? More classes and archetypes? Bloodlines for sorcerers and bloodragers? Mythic? Adventures from level 1-20? Backgrounds? Feats? Monsters?
We’re definitely keeping an eye on this thread. We’re just not sure what people want and kind of doing our own thing in hopes everything works out for us.