Help with my second PC Unchained Rouge Halfling


Advice


I want to make my second Pathfinder character and my idea was to make a ¨two faced¨ Halfling.

You could skip the rest, it just what I have thought as back story:
As far as back story goes, I was thinking something along the lines that, as he was young his entire family/village was killed by goblins and for some twisted reason he was speared by them.
They kept him as a slave and made him do lots of stuff, gathering herbs, "fish" in the river, scout out dangerous things, being bait to catch other victims by surprise and the like.
All the while they barely feed him anything, so he had to steal the little food he could get his hands on.
As he grew bigger/older he realized the goblins were seeing an end to his usefulness and he would soon be their next meal.
That is when he picked the lock of his cage, killed the sleeping goblin guards and after setting their hideout ablaze he ran off.
When he got to a human settlement, he learned that he could pass by an innocent child and since he didn't felt like he could fit in with this kind of society, instead went back to stealing.

TLDR: He was "adopted" by goblins and treated like s*+*, which is why he has a borderline obsessive hate for goblinoids.
I want him to be superb at hiding, ambushing (sneak attack) and outstanding at bluffing.
He shows a "kind/gentle" facade, while he schemes to get the best profit out of every situation and he has a psychopathic/sadistic tendencies towards goblinoids.

Stats (25 point buy system):
STR: 12-2=10
DEX 17+2=19
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 12
CHA 11+2 (So I can use the Childlike general feat, not sure if it worth it)

Racial traits:
• Fearless
• Halfling Luck
• Keen Senses
• Fleet of Foot
• I'm not sure if I should pick Dimdweller or Shadow Hunter

As far as traits go, I was thinking of taking Reactionary and River Rat or Adopted: Colorful Thief (Goblin), not sure if there is anything more useful or if I should take a drawback to get all 3 traits.

Lastly my idea is to try and try and excel in stealth/bluff and as for combat, I was considering going the two weapon rout with daggers, maybe add the crit. feats, but I don't know if I will have enough feats available.

Any thought or inputs would be appreciated!


Great build. A few ideas: You get 8 skp /lvl, so why a int of 12? And yes, the Childlike feat is not worth it as a feat. Maybe as a trait, if you are doing a heavy city campaign.


DrDeth wrote:
Great build. A few ideas: You get 8 skp /lvl, so why a int of 12? And yes, the Childlike feat is not worth it as a feat. Maybe as a trait, if you are doing a heavy city campaign.

Thanks for the quick reply, and Childlike sounded like a good fit for what I had in mind, but not really worth to lose a feat for.

And even with 8+1 skill points, I feel like I want even more.
These are the skills I picked up for level 1:
1. Acrobatics
2. Bluff
3. Disable Device
4. Escape Artist (Not sure how useful this is, might change it for Diplomacy)
5. Knowledge (local)
6. Linguistics (I wanted to learn the goblin language)
7. Perception
8. Stealth
9. Use Magic Device
And these are the once I left out but still wanted:
• Diplomacy
• Disguise (Is this useful)
• Knowledge Dungeoneering
• Sense Motive
• Sleight of hand

Sometime down the line, I might like to have him learn a little about demolition (explosives or the like).


With Int of 12 you get goblin as a bonus language, so you can use your skill point for something else instead of linguistics. Probably Sleight of hand, as that is how you would have been able to take and keep food hidden from the goblins.

What is your favored class bonus? Probably skill points?

If you are planning on using daggers, then river rat is a great trait.

If you want to pretend you are a human child, childlike give you an effective +6 to disguise just for that, +2 for all other uses of disguise. Skill focus (Disguise) is probably better in the long run for pretending to be other things, like a goblin for example. Or you can get a more useful feat. I'd probably go for cha 12 or 14.


Once more, thanks for the quick reply.

Some questions:

1) So with 12 of INT I get an extra language, how does that work?
2) Should I lower my CHA from 11+2=13 to 8+2=10 in order to get my INT up to 14?
3) How useful is the escape artist and disguise skill?
4) Which drawback would you suggest, that isn't to damaging?
5) I only see this as a favored class bonus for Halfling:
Rogue: Choose a weapon from the following list: sling, dagger, or any weapon with “halfling” in its name. Add a +1/2 bonus on critical hit confirmation rolls with that weapon (maximum bonus +4). This bonus does not stack with Critical Focus.
6) What feat would you suggest to take?

Thanks in advanced!


1) For every +1 Int bonus, a character gains a bonus language. For Halflings, they get Halfling and Common for free. With an Int of 12, you can choose a bonus language from Dwarven, Elven, Gnome or Goblin.

2) Charisma 12 is probably sufficient. Bluff, Disguise and Use Magic Device are all charisma based, so having a positive score is useful. I'd say either put the extra point either in str for the extra carrying capacity or Int so you can qualify for combat expertise and Improved Feint (if you want to go down that path).

3) Escape Artist you need to hit a 20 to escape from spells like Entangle or Animate Rope, and versus your opponent's 20 + CMB to escape bindings or your opponent's CMD to escape from a grapple. You need to hit DC 30 to escape from manacles (35 vs masterwork manacles) and 30 to squeeze through very tight spaces. It's usefulness depends on how often the GM throws you against grapples and entangling spells. Disguise allows you to pass for something you are not. For example, to fool someone by pretending to be a human child, they roll their perception vs. your disguise roll result. Pretending to be human is -2 and a younger age is another -2. Fortunately a human child is already small, so you don't have the -10 vs. different size. Its usefulness depends on how often you want to appear as someone you are not.

4) I don't use drawbacks in my game, but generally if allowed you should take them more for roleplay reasons than for getting a bonus, especially if you were planning on doing so anyway. From your description I would say Paranoid (Allies need a DC 15 to aid you) fits.

5) When you choose a favored class, every time you take a level in that class you get either 1 hit point or 1 skill point. Alternatively, you can take the alternate favorite class bonus listed for your race in that class. So if you take rogue as your favorite class, each time you level in rogue you can take either +1 hit point, +1 skill point or +1/2 bonus to critical confirmation rolls with a dagger, sling or a Halfling weapon. Note that you don't get a fractional bonus until it hits a whole number. From your concept, I'd take either the skill point or hit point.

6) You can't take weapon focus yet, you need a +1 BAB to qualify. You do get Weapon Finesse for free at least, since you are taking the unchained rogue. It sounds like you want to be a melee rogue, so I would say either Two weapon fighting (if you want to fight with two daggers) or Combat Expertise (if you want to qualify for improved feint). You could also take a skill focus if you want to really excel at a skill, or you could take a fun feat that only halflings qualify for, like Well-prepared (Sleight of hand check vs DC of 10 + GP value once per day to just happen to have a certain item).


Thanks Dilvias, I will look into all this and get back to you!


So, I will probably go with the point to str like you suggested.

I think I will leave both skills for a later level up.

And of all the drawbacks, I was in between Paranoid and Warded against nature.
My thought was that although he is able to fool everyone else, the animals can feel his hidden madness.

Isn't the increase in the crit. confirmation rolls better?
How does the sneak attack work with a critical hit?

And I will need some more time to look through the feats, but TWF or a skill focus could be a good start.

Any other recomendations?


Quote:
That is when he...killed the sleeping goblin guards and after setting their hideout ablaze he ran off.

My, what a pint-sized ball of fury you are.

-- Almost as if you had dipped barbarian [savage technologist] and picked up Extra Rage at 1st level.


I normally wouldn't take Warded against nature, as it could cause some negative reactions from others (if you have ever seen Young Frankenstein, think of the scene with Freu Bleucker and the horses). That said, goblins have a hatred of dogs and horses, so that might be reflection of your history.

Sneak attack is not doubled on a critical hit. If you don't think you need the skill point, the Halfling favorite class bonus isn't terrible, but if you are only going to be using daggers you can only take it 8 times. You also don't any effect until level 2, and that is only a +1 to hit only to confirm the critical. If you are going for a crit fisher style, perhaps. Note that the earliest you can get improved critical as a rogue is 11th level, so you will be stuck only gets crits on 19-20 for a long time.

One big question is are there any feats or abilities you want later? If you do, many times you need to start planning on it from level one. It isn't necessary, of course, and you can just take things as you go and let your character build organically, but if you do have something you are aiming for it might be useful to plan for.

What is his goals and plans? Is it goblin genocide? How is he planning on doing so? Having at least a plan on where you want to end up can help bring the other decisions in focus.


So the goblin thing wasn't to my DMs liking so I will have to change up my back-story.
So I'm changing the Color Thief trait for the Blood of Dragons one, to get low light vision.

I don't really know much about feats, my first character barely got to level 4 before my last group stopped getting together.

I read online that the circling mongoose was a good idea to use.
Can you suggest good ways to be able to benefit more from sneak attack and make it more likely to happen during combat?
I was also told that I wouldn't be allowed to use the Pharasma Deific Obedience feat (+2 to hit with daggers).

Also what would you suggest as a starting gear/equipment with 140GP?


Unless your GM wants a roleplay heavy story where you will definitely need to have bedrolls and such, don't bother getting them. You won't be able to get masterwork items so just get simple and cheap armor that will give a decent bonus yet can be sold later for better items. I suggest getting leather armor and a dagger and club so you can cover all the basic damage types and you have a backup weapon. A sling would be good for if you need a ranged weapon as it's cheaper than a shortbow and you don't need to buy ammo, you can use rocks.

A masterwork backback is only 50 gold, so if you have enough to spare, get it. It's great for small characters as it holds a bit more and increases your carrying capacity.

You also want to get some lamp oil. Not necessarily a lamp, but the oil. It's pretty good to do some damage against swarms. You throw the oil on the swarm, then use a match or the Spark spell to light it.

Thief's Tools can be something you get later on if you need them. You really only need them for picking locks and disabling traps, so don't bother if they aren't in the campaign.


My DM asked me to give him a good explanation of why and/or how my character learned to speak goblin . . .
It doesn't really fit in with most of his back-story, he grew up on a merchant caravan until he was 10 years old and then lived amongst pirates until he was 20.
I still have to flesh out the last two years he lived in a big city, where he polished his rogue skill set in order to seek vengeance and I suppose he picked it up here.
But I have no idea how, any advice or ideas how that could have happened?


Any help/ideas on how I could have learned the goblin language in a big city?

Grand Lodge

MarcosMK wrote:
Any help/ideas on how I could have learned the goblin language in a big city?

Two easy ways come to mind:

1 - During the city time, there was a Goblin or group of goblins he ran with as an down and out thief. He picked up the language from dealing with them for that time, maybe not perfectly, but enough to be fluent. If you still want to dislike Goblins, then a betrayal by the naturally chaotic little buggers isn't too hard to imagine.

2 - During the Pirate years, your on ship bunk mate was a Goblin. During time off shift, you picked up the language. Maybe from the Goblin, maybe from the ship's officer that spoke it and gave out the daily work assignments. Hating the Goblins could easily be from him trying to backstab your character for some perceived slight, perhaps injuring you badly enough to be dropped off at the nearest port leaving you struggling to survive in the slums for the last two years as you were recovering enough to be able to leave.


Hi again, so we just got to level 2 and I was looking through my future options. The ones than appealed the most to me are two weapon fighting and a way to make lots of sneak attacks.
On that last part I read a little about the Canny Tumble and Circling Mongoose combo.

I admit it is a little lazy on my side to ask this, but could anyone give me some pointers/recommendations for the feat/talent build I would have to use to build this?

We can't use any third party published feats/talents.
Once more thanks in advanced!

Silver Crusade

To answer your question of several months ago, Escape Artist is mandatory to escape grapples.


Thanks, I already realised that the hard way.
Any other advice?


Hi again, quick update:

We reached level 3 and this is what Van look like now:

Stats (25 point buy system):
STR: 13-2=11
DEX 17+2=19
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 12
CHA 10+2=12

Racial traits:
•Fearless
•Halfling Luck
•Keen Senses
•Fleet of Foot
•Dimdweller

Traits:
•Blood of Dragons (Lo light vision)
•River Rat

Feats:
•Dodge
•Two Weapon Fighting

Rogue Talent:
•Weapon Training (Daggers)

I also choose Dagger for finesse and DEX to damage.

We will get together again on Sunday, since we will be getting back to town, our DM asked us look and to choose what we would want to buy.
As a team, we decided to buy 2 wands of cure light wounds, 2 Handy Haversacks and I would get to hold on to one of those.
So that would leave me with around 3000GP to spend.
I was thinking to buy a cloak of resistance +1 . . . what more would you suggest to get?
I have a masterwork Studded Leather Armor, 2 Masterwork Daggers, 2 spring-loaded wrist sheaths, Amulet of Natural Armor.

Any help or suggestions are more than appreciated!


I'd suggest masterworked lockpicks. Actually maybe hold off on buying a cloak of resistance +1 since enemies should start dropping them sooner or later. I wouldn't recommend buying a +1 dagger either. Eventually the enemies should drop quite a few +1 weapons and daggers are fairly common.

Mainly I'd recommend saving up for items that you'll want that usually aren't included in treasure. Belts of dexterity aren't all that common until your in the teens. If there is someone in the group that has Create Wonderous Items you could get a +2 belt now. Buying a +2 dex belt is going to be more effective than buying 2 +1 daggers.

The gap in price between +2 to +4 and +6 is huge. But rather than investing in +1 weapons, save money and wait for a +1 to drop. Then spend the money you saved to make it +2 or higher. Depending on how much you get targeted, it might be better to spend on improving armor first.

Don't bother improving the Amulet of Natural Armor. They are really expensive for the armor bonus you receive from them. Until you have the rest of your items in order, a little AC is not going to be a high concern. Especially if you're first concern is raising dex so you can get a bonus to hit, AC and damage for the same cost structure.


Meirril, thanks for your reply!
As far as armor goes, what would you recommed to get next?
I was also considering getting a masterwork hand-crossbow.


MarcosMK wrote:

Meirril, thanks for your reply!

As far as armor goes, what would you recommed to get next?
I was also considering getting a masterwork hand-crossbow.

Armor is a problem. You're in the trap that is dexterity. Once you hit 4th level your dex should be improved to 20. If you have a +2 belt that is a 22 which gives a +6 bonus. Most armor doesn't let you have a +6 bonus to dex. Wearing heavier armor for a larger bonus means a smaller maximum dex bonus.

The best non-magical suit of armor you'll be able to get is a mithral shirt since it maxamizes the protection you can get for the dex AC cap. At 1,100gp its expensive, but worth the investment if you can find it for sale. This is another item that generally finds its way into loot commonly, but you might want to buy it now. 'Eventually' for loot could be 4 levels from now since its value is higher than a +1 suit of mundane armor.

If you don't want to spend that much on armor, stick with the studded leather you have. But that mithral shirt enchanted or not is going to be the direct upgrade path you should aim for in the immediate or distant future.

Hand crossbow is sexy. It has a mystique to it. The image is great. The hand crossbow has a range increment of 30'. But you're a dagger guy. If something is close you should position your self to stab. If its far enough away you want to spend a move action to draw a weapon and then a standard to shoot, how about a short bow with a range increment of 80? It also has larger damage dice.

As for masterworked...meh. 300gp for +1 to hit is cost effective. If this was your primary weapon I'd be fully in favor of it. But this should be a secondary weapon you hardly ever use. You're character is built to do melee, ranged attacks are a necessary back up. Spend the money to make you better at what you want to do, and skimp a bit on things that are backup plans you'd rather avoid if possible.

Now if a hand crossbow (masterworked or not) shows up in loot, grab it. That is way more valuable to you than the half value the group gets for selling it. The same for the best shortbow you're group sees. Getting something for half value is far better than buying it for full price.


If you've got a teammate who is willing to coordinate teamwork feats with you then Outflank might be worth looking into at some point; it can be very useful to a rogue since you'll usually want to be flanking for the sneak attack anyway and Outflank increases your flanking bonus from +2 to +4. Additionally with this when you score a crit against the flanked opponent then your partner gets an attack of opportunity against said opponent.

Silver Crusade

I suggest buying a +1 Mithril Chain Shirt (2100 gp) and the +1 Cloak of Resistance (1000 gp).


Quote:
Any help or suggestions are more than appreciated!
What is your alignment (and why)? What is your GM's opinion of multiclassing (or, are other PCs already doing it)?
PCScipio wrote:
I suggest buying a +1 Mithril Chain Shirt (2100 gp) and the +1 Cloak of Resistance (1000 gp).

Depending upon his answers to my questions, it's possible he'll have little to no need for at least one of those items.


We are at a small village/town at the moment so I'm not sure if I will even be able to get what I want, but THANKS for all the input you are giving me!

*) Alignment . . . Neutral, because . . . reasons?
Nah, I just had no idea how alignment worked and still don't entirely get it.
My idea is that he won't do evil without a reason and if it doesn't cost him anything he might even help, but if anything seems like a possible threat to him, he wouldn't hesitate in getting rid of it.
In our last session we clashed with another party and after kill . . . defeating them all, we healed one to interrogate. After that it was obvious that if he survived it would spell trouble for us (cult fanatic and we were ransacking an old temple), my party wasn't sure what to do and wanted to just leave him tied up, so I suggested everyone to leave the room and slit his throat.

*) As far as multicasting, I think he is ok with it, I'm even considering making a 1 level dip into Feral Hunter, because I like it for RP flavor. I talked with my GM to change it so that all the Feral Focus abilities are tied to my PCs draconic lineage.
And I love getting Darkvision and the versatility the other focus options give.

*) Lastly, as far as Outflank goes, I already have a teammate with whom we will share that feat in the future.


The reason I asked is because your stats were almost ideal to play a halfling dex-rogue/paladin multiclass, which IMO is one of the most fun & flexible martial builds in the game if the rogue "slot" has been left open to you by the party. I say almost since I think you frittered some point-buy overspending for uber dexterity. A starting 17 in a halfing is basically the same as a 19 in a human, so you don't need to spend over half your build points chasing helium while leaving one of the rogue's biggest assets, his charisma, languishing.

25pt halfling, slightly different:

STR- 9 (11-2)
DEX+ 17 (15+2)
CON: 14
INT: 12 (or 7, for a really stupid rogue who wants that 19 dex)
WIS: 14
CHA+ 16 (14+2)

If you're an unchained rogue3, you'll have dex to damage with your daggers by now, and SA+2d6. With TWF, you're quite the murder-machine in close-quarters, but weaknesses will start showing up at 5th, when your R5's saves are +4/+8/+4 prior to items (halfling-luck bonus is included).

At 5th, a uRog3/Paladin2 with those stats enjoys saves of +9/+11/+9 before items, and is adding +2 to all of them with a +1 cloak and a charisma headband. He has access to all martial weapons and armors, and will enjoy a charisma bonus to attack from time to time. (And, with urban bloodrager in the game, he can even rage as a paladin, though that might carry things a little too far for a modest home game playing less-than-hardcore scenarios.) Now go look at the halfling's alternative favored class advancement bonus in paladin.

Feats: retrain Dodge to Quick Draw. (You can throw daggers with TWF if you can get them out fast enough. That may be a short-term gimmick, however, if a blink-back belt strikes your fancy. But QD will let you cycle between ranged and melee efficiently.)


Hi again.

It has been almost a year and my party and I are barely about to reach level 5!

Thing is, a party member is trying to talk me into changing my build idea to include dirty trick and I don't really find it very appealing.

He is an Inquisitor that uses summons and a spear with reach to trip his opponents.

He says my build is selfish, which I can agree on, since my main focus was to increase my odds at hitting and making the attack be a sneak attack most of the times.

This is my build´s progression:
Lvl1: Two weapon fighting + finesse training Daggers
Lvl2: Weapon Focus Daggers
Lvl3: Dodge
Lvl4: Mobility
Lvl5: Canny Tumble + Rogue Edge Acrobatics
Lvl6: Offensive defense
Lvl7: Deific Obiance Pharasm (If GM allows it)
Lvl8: Slow Reactions (not 100% sure)
Lvl9: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Lvl10: Double Debilitation + Rogue Edge Stealth
Lvl11: Outflank (not 100% sure)
Lvl12: Skill Mastery
Lvl13: Combat Reflexes (maybe I should pick this one up earlier)
Lvl14: Confounding Blades
Lvl15: Feat? + Rogue Edge Perception
Lvl16: Fast Tumble
Lvl17: Feat?
Lvl18: Improved Evasion
Lvl19: Feat?
Lvl20: Hard Minded + Rogue Edge Sense Motive

Any useful input will be appreciated!


MarcosMK wrote:

Thing is, a party member is trying to talk me into changing my build idea to include dirty trick and I don't really find it very appealing.

He is an Inquisitor that uses summons and a spear with reach to trip his opponents.

At firest I thought "He" was your character, that your character was the Inquisitor.

What Teamwork Feats does your party Inquisistor have? Teamwork Feats can be pretty tasty. It might be worthwhile for you to match his Teamwork Feats whatever they are.

I have a personal Favorite: Broken Wing Gambit. If you both have Broken Wing Gambit, if either of you is Attacked, both of you get Attacks of Opportunity. The GM might also demand you also both take Paired Opportunist, so do that.

I also really like Panther Style Feats in conjunction with your Dodge and Mobility, but I notice you only have a Wisdom of 12, so it might not be worth it. With that Dex of 19, probably 20 now you are almost level 5, you would be a good candidate for Snake Style Feats. Snake Fang is such a powerful Feat, that it is worth the high Feat Tax. Whenever you are Attacked and Missed, Snake Fang gives you an Attack of Opportunity and an Immediate Action Attack besides. You can't take Snake Fang before level 9, anyway, so you have time to do it between levels 5 and 9.

Snake and Panther Style Feats only work with Unarmed Strikes, though. You'd have to retrain to take Weapon Finesse and probably Weapon Focus from Dagger to Unarmed Strike. I'd have you dip a level in Brawler with the Snakebite Striker Archetype, giving you an extra 1d6 Sneak Attack and Improved Unarmed Strike and 1d4 (Because you are Size Small, for Size Medium, it's 1d6.). You can take Snake Style as a Ninja Trick, and you can take a Ninja Trick as a Rogue Talent. Simply dipping a level in Brawler and retraining from Dagger to Unarmed Strike will give you more Damage/Attack: your Daggers do 1d3 right now, don't they? So going from 1d3 to 1d4 means +1.5 Damage.

So, this is going to sound crazy, but I bet it will be really powerful, and it will kill your party's complaint that your character is selfish, but if you take a level in Cavalier and take Combat Reflexes as your level 5 Feat and Paired Opportunist as your Bonus Teamwork Feat, and if you convinced the Inquisitor to take Broken Wing Gambit if he has not already done so, then you have a setup where whenever anybody attacks the Inquisitor, the whole party gets attacks of opportunity.

So, at level 5, take a level in Rogue and take Combat Reflexes, and your Inquisitor friend take Broken Wing Gambit and Combat Reflexes.

At level 6, you dip a level in Cavalier and take Paired Opportunist. You also get the Tactician Class Ability, which will let you give Paired Opportunist to everyone as a team for 3 Rounds. That's the Feat that will make it so whenever any of you gets an Attack of Opportunity, all of you get one.

Then at level 7, I'd have you dip in Snakebite Striker Brawler, giving yourself an extra 1d6 Sneak Attack Damage. It's at level 7 I'd have you retrain Weapon Focus and Weapon Finesse from Dagger to Unarmed Strike.

At level 8, I'd have you take a level in Rogue and take Snake Style as a Rogue Talent.

At level 9, I'd have you take another level in Brawler and take Snake Sidewind and Snake Fang. That will make it so whenever you are Attacked and Missed, you get an Attack of Opportunity, and when you use Tactician, Paired Opportunist makes it so whenever you are attacked and missed, the whole party gets an Attack of Opportunity. As early as level 6, you will have it so that whenever anyone attacks your party Inquisitor, the whole party gets Attacks of Opportunity.

With your 2nd level in Brawler, you also get Brawler's Flurry, which makes 2 Weapon Fighting redundant, so I'd have you retrain that, too. I haven't picked a Feat for you for level 7. How about you take Combat Expertise or Dirty Fighting, then at level 9 retrain 2 weapon fighting to Improved Feint. That will give you another way to lock in Sneak Attack Damage. Then at level 10, take level 3 Snakebite Striker Brawler and you get a Class Ability that lets you Feint as you Move. You also get a Feat at 9. Risky Striker is a good Halfling Feat. It gives you a Damage Bonus. So, Combat Expertise (or Dirty Fighting) or Risky Striker at level 7, then the other at level 9?


MarcosMK wrote:
Thing is, a party member is trying to talk me into changing my build idea to include dirty trick and I don't really find it very appealing.

I do like Dirty Tricks in a Sneak Attacking Character. You can use the Dirty Trick Combat Maneuver to make your opponents Blind, giving the whole party a 50% Miss Chance and denying them their Dex Mod to AC, and that locks in your Sneak Attack Damage. And if you run into an opponent that has Blindsight or the Blind Fighting Feat, play a 2nd Dirty Trick, and make him Deaf, too, and you still get your SA Damage and the party still gets their 50% Miss Chance.

Since your character Strength Dumps and has a high Dex, you'd also have to take Agile Maneuvers. Maybe then you and the Inquisitor can take Coordinated Maneuvers together, so you both get +2 on all Combat Maneuvers. I'd have you take the Quick and Greater dirty tricks as well, allowing you to play Dirty Tricks in place of an Attack and getting a +6 all together.

It would be a big investment in Feats, but it's not a terrible idea.

How often is your character enjoying Sneak Attack Damage, and are you happy with that?

Improved Dirty Tricks requires Combat Expertise, and Combat Expertise requires an Intelligence of 13, and your Intelligence is 12. So you have a built-in excuse for not taking Dirty Tricks for the time being. If you follow my advice above and dip into Brawler, you will be able to take Combat Expertise even with an Intelligence of 12, but that's not until level 7, so you have time to think about it.


With your Goblin Backstory, do you think your GM would let you take any Goblin Feats? I always thought Goblin Feats were fun and awesome.


Thanks for the options, I will look into them, but I don't want to go too far away from my current build.
Because I actually like it, as a character and have fun playing him.


As a rogue, you're getting pretty close to the point where Two-Weapon Fighting falls off really hard so you may want to consider retraining out of those and trying the Dirty Trick route.

The reason it's about to fall off is 6th level and up you start running into Damage Reduction regularly and the -2 penalty to attack rolls starts to matter more as Armor Class begins to scale faster. I would consider the Brawler dip or if they let you move your stats around a little just taking Combat Expertise and Gang Up.(You are your own ally so as long as someone else is fighting the same enemy, you benefit from flanking and sneak attacks)


I was going to recommend Circling Mongoose to mitigate the TWF penalties, but then I looked at it again and realized that's an awful lot of prerequisite feats to cram in by 8th level, when you would have BAB +6 to qualify.


MarcosMK wrote:

Thanks for the options, I will look into them, but I don't want to go too far away from my current build.

Because I actually like it, as a character and have fun playing him.

Your Canny Tumble and Circling Mongoose would work great with Panther/Snake style Feats. You succeed at your first Tumble check and provoke no attacks of opportunity and lock in your Sneak Attack Damage. You fail your second and you get the Panther Claw Retributive Strike as a Free Action, and if the Attack Misses, you get an AoO off of Snake Fang.

Dodge and Mobility are prerequisites for Circling Mongoose and Canny Tumble and they make Panther Style Feats work a whole lot better.

I'd have you take Sap Adept and Knockout Artist for +2 points/SA damage.


MarcosMK wrote:

{. . .}

This is my build´s progression:
Lvl1: Two weapon fighting + finesse training Daggers
Lvl2: Weapon Focus Daggers
Lvl3: Dodge
Lvl4: Mobility
Lvl5: Canny Tumble + Rogue Edge Acrobatics
Lvl6: Offensive defense
Lvl7: Deific Obiance Pharasm (If GM allows it)
Lvl8: Slow Reactions (not 100% sure)
Lvl9: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Lvl10: Double Debilitation + Rogue Edge Stealth
Lvl11: Outflank (not 100% sure)
Lvl12: Skill Mastery
Lvl13: Combat Reflexes (maybe I should pick this one up earlier)
Lvl14: Confounding Blades
Lvl15: Feat? + Rogue Edge Perception
Lvl16: Fast Tumble
Lvl17: Feat?
Lvl18: Improved Evasion
Lvl19: Feat?
Lvl20: Hard Minded + Rogue Edge Sense Motive
{. . .}

I somehow missed your actual build when posting the previous time. I see 2 problems:

  • Circling Mongoose requires Spring Attack (which is not on there), unless you have some ability that I missed that lets you off the hook for that. Unfortunately, you're going to need some feat rearrangement to fit this in.
  • Rules As Written, Offensive Defense is only available to Classic Rogues, not Unchained Rogues. I would allow it, but better check with your GM.


  • Rogue Fact Checker wrote:
    As a rogue, you're getting pretty close to the point where Two-Weapon Fighting falls off really hard so you may want to consider retraining out of those and trying the Dirty Trick route.

    Nonono....

    Keep TWF (but ITWF is unnecessary). Get rid of Dodge, Mobility, and Uncanny Tumble -- that saves three or four feats right there. (Dear rogues everywhere: stop acrobating through threatened zones! That's how you get killed. More fun: finding ways to make feinting work. Equipment: Varisian dancing scarves. Multilclass a bit of Brawler for flurrying with a single weapon, getting TWF without the feat, and access to Feinting Flurry.)


    Slim Jim wrote:
    Rogue Fact Checker wrote:
    As a rogue, you're getting pretty close to the point where Two-Weapon Fighting falls off really hard so you may want to consider retraining out of those and trying the Dirty Trick route.

    Nonono....

    Keep TWF (but ITWF is unnecessary). Get rid of Dodge, Mobility, and Uncanny Tumble -- that saves three or four feats right there. (Dear rogues everywhere: stop acrobating through threatened zones! That's how you get killed. More fun: finding ways to make feinting work. Equipment: Varisian dancing scarves. Multilclass a bit of Brawler for flurrying with a single weapon, getting TWF without the feat, and access to Feinting Flurry.)

    Actually, I was just inspired by Canny Tumble and Circling Mongoose to improve my Goblin build that does exactly what you said not to!

    I do multiclass a bit with Brawler and get Brawler's Flurry.

    I'm intending to post it later, since this thread gave me the inspiration.


    A Goblin named Bonzai!!

    So, this doesn't have to be a Goblin. I was thinking I might make this character technically a Halfling for Pathfinder Society, and make it very clear to the table that he's a Goblin, politely asking the GM to pass on my upturned middle finger to Paizo Publishing for making such a fun race but not letting anyone play it.

    Level 1, Brawler1: Unarmed 1d4, Sneak Attack 1d6, Dodge, BAB+1
    2B1Arcanist1: Dimensional Slide

    The level in Arcanist gives the character a lot: now he can use almost any Arcane Magic Wand, offering tremendous utility. Dimensional Slide is a tactical teleport that can be done as part of your move and does not end your turn. It only has a 10' Range, but that's enough to achieve Flanking.

    Later, as the character gains wealth and can buy better wands, he might get a Wand of Greater Invisibility and lock in Sneak Attack Damage that way.

    3B1A1Unchained Rogue1: Sneak Attack +1d6, Weapon Finesse (Unarmed Strike), Combat Reflexes
    4B1A1U2: Ninja Trick, Style Master, Panther Style, BAB+2
    5B2A1U2: Mobility, Canny Tumble, Brawler’s Flurry, BAB+3

    Slim Jim wrote:
    Get rid of Dodge, Mobility, and Uncanny Tumble -- that saves three or four feats right there. (Dear rogues everywhere: stop acrobating through threatened zones! That's how you get killed.

    Alas, exactly what you told us not to do! So this character is using Panther Style Feats to get bonus attacks, and Dodge and Mobility to stay alive while doing it. In the past, I had a Halfling Fighter who had a full time AC of 20 or maybe even higher by level 2: say an 18 Dex, Lamellar Leather and Shield, Size Small: 10+4+2+6+1 = 23. Plus Dodge and Mobility makes that 28, and that's with nonmagical Armor and Shield, no Ring of Protection--practically naked! At the same time, he has Canny Tumble to lock in his Sneak Attack Damage.

    6B2A1U3: Finesse Training, SAD+1d6, Danger Sense+1, BAB+4
    7B2A2U4: Panther Claw, Combat Training, Panther Parry, BAB+5
    8B2A2U4Monk1: Monk Stuff, Master of Many Styles, Snake Style
    9B2A2U4M1Fighter1: Snake Sidewind, Snake Fang, BAB+6

    So, this is the hat trick, Panther Parry + Snake Fang by level 9, Dex-to-Damage, lots of bonus Attacks every round, including a strong ability to inflict those on single targets: 1 Free Action Attack, 1 Attack of Opportunity, 1 Immediate Action Attack, and 1 Standard Action Attack, all with a very reliable means of locking in 3d6 Sneak Attack Damage. Running around drawing lots of Attacks of Opportunity, he will have an AC of 30 before any magic Item purchases. His BAB is low, but this will hopefully be offset by frequently targeting Flatfooted AC and by Weapon Finesse. Also, the Attacks of Opportunity will be at +4 due to Paired Opportunist.

    His Saving throws:
    Fort: +8
    Reflex: +9
    Will: +5

    A single class level 9 character would have +3 for the Poor Save +6 for the Good Save. So this characters saves are quite good, as typical for multiclassing.

    10B2A1U5M1F1: SAD+1d6, Rogue's Edge
    11B2A1U5M1F1Cavalier1: Challenge, Order, Tactician, Paired Opportunist, Spring Attack, BAB+7

    Snake Fang awards an Attack of Opportunity whenever you are attacked and missed, that makes it an Attack of Opportunity hair trigger, and now this character gives out Attacks of Opportunity!

    12B2A1U5M1F1C1Inquisitor1: Judgement, Stern Gaze, Monster Lore
    13B2A1U5M1F1C1I2: Cunning Initiative, Tracking, Circling Mongoose, BAB+8

    This character already has 2 weapon fighting in the form of Brawler's Flurry, and gets 3 Attacks/round as a Full Attack, and he still gets the bonus attacks from Panther/Snake Style.

    14B2A1U5M1F1C1I3: Solo Tactics, Broken Wing Gambit, BAB+9

    BWG will give him a AoO whenever he is attacked. Snake Fang gives him an AoO whenever he is Missed, and he gives out Attacks of Opportunity by the shovelful!

    15B2A1U5M1F1C1I4: Judgement 2/day, Knockout Artist, BAB+10
    16B2A1U5M1F1C1I5: Bane, Discern Lies

    His Sneak Attack Damage is only 4d6 at this point, Knockout Artist makes it 4d6+4, Bane adds another 2d6. Still, the number of attacks/round should be quite high, and again between Broken Wing Gambit, Snake Fang, Circling Mongoose, and Panther Claw, that should run into a lot of Attacks for a lot of Damage.

    17B2A1U5M1F2I5: Bravery +1, Weapon Focus and Specialization Unarmed Strike, BAB+11
    18B2A1U5M1F3I5: Armor Training +1, BAB+12
    19B2A1U5M1F4I5: Accomplished Sneak Attacker, Precise Strike, BAB+13
    20B2A1U5M1F5I5 Weapon Training+1, BAB+14,

    This looks like a lot of fun. I know the OP isn't any longer interested in changing his build, but I wanted to post it by way of saying thanks for the inspiration.

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