Day Job? Strength of the Sun?


Pathfinder Society

Sczarni 2/5

So, at the end of an adventure you can roll a Day Job roll.
Strength of the Sun "During the day, you gain a +1 trait bonus on all Charisma-based checks."

"Permanent bonuses from the following list affect your
Day Job check as they would any check for the rolled skill.
Temporary bonuses from sources other than crafter’s
fortune do not affect Day Job checks."

Question: Is this a permanent bonus or a Temporary one? You have it permanently, every day (presumably when you would be working most jobs). And it never needs to be recast and never goes away as long as you have the trait. (I feel like the guys from "Big Trouble" when I describe this... we're arriving at the airport, but we want to depart...)

Reason it comes up at all:
CHA 20 (+5), Preform Skill 1, (Class) +3, --- So do I get the +1 for the Strength of the Sun to make it a +10?

I can take 10, and get a 20 every time (20GP). I can roll and get a 30 (75GP).
While this may not seem like a lot, it could be the difference between having the money to retrain what I need to on this character or not. (esp. if I managed to miraculously roll 3 20's for 225GP total).

Generally it means at least a 30 GP difference. Which isn't a lot, granted. But obviously 225GP to a second level character is a good chunk of change. At second level I can just dip a second rank into it to round it out if it is needed (so it becomes less of a deal later on)

Thoughts? Comments? FAQs where it's pointed out?

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Wisconsin—Pleasant Prairie aka Brew City Crafter

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The short answer to your question, is no, Strength of the Sun does not apply to Day Job checks.

Strength of the Sun is only active during day light hours, therefore it is conditional, which in order for a "permanent" bonus to apply to Day Job checks, it must always be active. Because of the unquantified time between scenarios, when you actually make your roll could be several hours to any point during any number of days (or time of day) or weeks after your character finishes the current adventure.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Second. its conditional so it won't work.


Agreed, not a permanent bonus so it does not apply.

And 20 gp every adventure is a new scroll every adventure. :)


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I don't know. They call it a Day Job. Seems reasonable to assume it happens during the day.
Like what else would you call a job done during the day? Night-only bonus would not apply, but this sounds legit.


One's Day Job could be Night Guardsman, and several Pathfinder's own taverns or theatres, which do work at night.

Plus it has been ruled that Animal Companions and Eidolons can not help in the day job, as not being permanent. An eidolon disappears when its summoner sleeps, so presumably working at your day job while you sleep is an option. :)

EDIT: errr... did I just completely miss sarcasm?

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Second. its conditional so it won't work.

I'm confused as to how crafters fortune counts and that doesn't outside of the fact that leadership said so.

5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
MadScientistWorking wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Second. its conditional so it won't work.
I'm confused as to how crafters fortune counts and that doesn't outside of the fact that leadership said so.

Leaderships says so is pretty much the answer.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5

andreww wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:


I'm confused as to how crafters fortune counts and that doesn't outside of the fact that leadership said so.
Leaderships says so is pretty much the answer.

Given that the duration is 1 day per level I think that Leadership would have to have been pretty darn mean to NOT allow it.

5/5

Paul Jackson wrote:
andreww wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:


I'm confused as to how crafters fortune counts and that doesn't outside of the fact that leadership said so.
Leaderships says so is pretty much the answer.
Given that the duration is 1 day per level I think that Leadership would have to have been pretty darn mean to NOT allow it.

Maybe so but there is a blanket ban on things that apply. Unless you fall into an exception or are permanent and apply to all uses of the skill it doesn't work. Yes that is going to create corner cases which look strange but without an exception being made it doesn't work.

Given the number of these things out there I very much doubt it is worth their time going through all of them and making an individual decision. I would much rather that time be spent on other things like writing new scenarios, editing those scenarios so we dont get ones like Signs in Senghor or updating AR.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, France—Paris

Quandary wrote:

I don't know. They call it a Day Job. Seems reasonable to assume it happens during the day.

Like what else would you call a job done during the day? Night-only bonus would not apply, but this sounds legit.

Crafter's Fortune gets a continued bonus and can be recasted as long as needed. Strength of the Sun works only on half of a day when a Day Job is decided on an identical continued posit than Crafter's. Hence why it doesn't work. How it's worded doesn't open confusion.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

andreww wrote:
Paul Jackson wrote:
andreww wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:


I'm confused as to how crafters fortune counts and that doesn't outside of the fact that leadership said so.
Leaderships says so is pretty much the answer.
Given that the duration is 1 day per level I think that Leadership would have to have been pretty darn mean to NOT allow it.

Maybe so but there is a blanket ban on things that apply. Unless you fall into an exception or are permanent and apply to all uses of the skill it doesn't work. Yes that is going to create corner cases which look strange but without an exception being made it doesn't work.

Given the number of these things out there I very much doubt it is worth their time going through all of them and making an individual decision. I would much rather that time be spent on other things like writing new scenarios, editing those scenarios so we dont get ones like Signs in Senghor or updating AR.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Philippe Lam wrote:
Quandary wrote:

I don't know. They call it a Day Job. Seems reasonable to assume it happens during the day.

Like what else would you call a job done during the day? Night-only bonus would not apply, but this sounds legit.
Crafter's Fortune gets a continued bonus and can be recasted as long as needed. Strength of the Sun works only on half of a day when a Day Job is decided on an identical continued posit than Crafter's. Hence why it doesn't work. How it's worded doesn't open confusion.

The problem with this argument is that it takes a decent chunk of the day to re-up crafters fortune so I just see pedantism at work. That's why I said it works no differently than a dozen other options.

Silver Crusade 2/5

MadScientistWorking wrote:
Philippe Lam wrote:
Quandary wrote:

I don't know. They call it a Day Job. Seems reasonable to assume it happens during the day.

Like what else would you call a job done during the day? Night-only bonus would not apply, but this sounds legit.
Crafter's Fortune gets a continued bonus and can be recasted as long as needed. Strength of the Sun works only on half of a day when a Day Job is decided on an identical continued posit than Crafter's. Hence why it doesn't work. How it's worded doesn't open confusion.
The problem with this argument is that it takes a decent chunk of the day to re-up crafters fortune so I just see pedantism at work. That's why I said it works no differently than a dozen other options.

One standard action is a decent chunk of the day?

Scarab Sages 5/5

Crafter's Fortune works because of flavor. Because it specifically says it helps you earn money.

5/5

Tallow wrote:
Crafter's Fortune works because of flavor. Because it specifically says it helps you earn money.

Lots of things have the flavour that they are specifically about earning money but don't help with day jobs because they are not called out.

Take for example, the alternate dwarf racial ability Industrial Urbanite. It gives you a +4 bonus on profession checks to earn money. Should you get the bonus on your day job? Almost certainly. But do you, with the rules we currently have probably not.

Compare that to the Busker bard entry in additional resources who can use a variety of skills for day jobs entirely appropriately.

The flavour of both certainly matches what day jobs are about, one works because additional resources deals with it, one doesn't. The issue often isn't flavour but time and a willingness to address a lot of corner cases.

A search of additional resources and campaign clarifications throws up a variety of other examples.

Scarab Sages 5/5

The dwarf bonus is a permanent bonus, so it applies.

2/5 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Other than the argument that the effect only works for half of the day, why is a trait bonus (a permant character selection) not a permanent bonus?

I was let to believe non-permanent things were things like spells (with the explicit exception of crafter's fortune) or non-continuous magic items.

I was also led to believe that eidolons and familiars can't help with day job rolls not because they're "non-permanent" but because OPC explicitly excluded them in a separate rule (only the character can participate in the day job).

5/5

Tallow wrote:
The dwarf bonus is a permanent bonus, so it applies.

Being permanent is not sufficient. It also has to apply to all aspects of the skill which this doesn't.

Silver Crusade 1/5

It's a permanent bonus that applies to checks made to earn money.

season 9 Guide wrote:

Permanent bonuses from the following list affect your

Day Job check as they would any check for the rolled skill.
Temporary bonuses from sources other than crafter’s
fortune do not affect Day Job checks.
• Equipment
• Feats
• Racial bonuses
• Class features
• Traits
• Familiar bonuses
• Crafter’s fortune spell

Industrial Urbanite is a permanent racial bonus. It meets the criteria in the guide.

5/5

Hmm, I am sure there used to be language somewhere saying the benefit had to apply to all uses of the skill but now I cannot find it.

4/5

andreww wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Crafter's Fortune works because of flavor. Because it specifically says it helps you earn money.

Lots of things have the flavour that they are specifically about earning money but don't help with day jobs because they are not called out.

Take for example, the alternate dwarf racial ability Industrial Urbanite. It gives you a +4 bonus on profession checks to earn money. Should you get the bonus on your day job? Almost certainly. But do you, with the rules we currently have probably not.

<snip>

As far as dwarven traits which should help day jobs, I could bring up craftsman which for some reason is not PFS legal, despite how appropriate it would be for someone with, say, profession:minor.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

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Due to labor laws, Profession (minor) is no longer legal.

4/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nefreet wrote:
Due to labor laws, Profession (minor) is no longer legal.

If you only put one rank in it, are you a minor miner? Or am I just digging myself in deeper?

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think you've hit rock bottom with that one.

4/5

Newfret wrote:
RealAlchemy wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Due to labor laws, Profession (minor) is no longer legal.
If you only put one rank in it, are you a minor miner? Or am I just digging myself in deeper?
I think you've hit rock bottom with that one.

Hittin rock bottom almost struck a chord, making a few halfsteps is a minor interval on the way to the major key in your professional success. 8^0 bad bardic puns and Grimlock bardic skill Perform(Lithophone)

4/5

Niemand wrote:
Newfret wrote:
RealAlchemy wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Due to labor laws, Profession (minor) is no longer legal.
If you only put one rank in it, are you a minor miner? Or am I just digging myself in deeper?
I think you've hit rock bottom with that one.
Hittin rock bottom almost struck a chord, making a few halfsteps is a minor interval on the way to the major key in your professional success. 8^0 bad bardic puns and Grimlock bardic skill Perform(Lithophone)

But can you play hard rock on a lithophone?

Scarab Sages Venture-Agent, Washington—Ballard aka WiseWolfOfYoitsu

MadScientistWorking wrote:
Philippe Lam wrote:
Quandary wrote:

I don't know. They call it a Day Job. Seems reasonable to assume it happens during the day.

Like what else would you call a job done during the day? Night-only bonus would not apply, but this sounds legit.
Crafter's Fortune gets a continued bonus and can be recasted as long as needed. Strength of the Sun works only on half of a day when a Day Job is decided on an identical continued posit than Crafter's. Hence why it doesn't work. How it's worded doesn't open confusion.
The problem with this argument is that it takes a decent chunk of the day to re-up crafters fortune so I just see pedantism at work. That's why I said it works no differently than a dozen other options.

It takes only 1 minute to craft an extract, followed by a standard action to drink it. That can be done shortly before the previous one expires.

Alchemy wrote:

Mixing an extract takes 1 minute of work—most alchemists prepare many extracts at the start of the day or just before going on an adventure, but it’s not uncommon for an alchemist to keep some (or even all) of his daily extract slots open so that he can prepare extracts in the field as needed.

----

An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion—the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist. An alchemist can draw and drink an extract as a standard action. The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level.

Crafter's Fortune wrote:

School transmutation; Level alchemist 1

Effect
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature
Duration 1 day/level or until discharged (D)
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
Description
The target is struck by inspiration and gains a +5 luck bonus on its next Craft skill check.

The reason leadership allowed this spell to work is that it applies to all forms of the Craft skill, takes 66 seconds to make and cast, and lasts days/level. You can literally have it up forever, at level one, at the cost of 1 extract per day. The Alchemy skill's bonus to create alchemical items does not apply to dayjobs because it does not encompass the entirety of the Craft: Alchemy skill, only applying to the creation of alchemical items. Craft: Alchemy also applies to identifying potions, alchemical items, poisons, etc. thus the bonus not being applicable. That said, an optimized Alchemist can still almost max out the dayjob table at level one. 1 rank + 3 Class skill + 5 INT + 5 CF + 2 Alchemist's Lab + 20 on 1d20 = 36

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Steven G. wrote:
The Alchemy skill's bonus to create alchemical items does not apply to dayjobs

It's also the same type of bonus that Crafter's Fortune grants anyways.

Silver Crusade 1/5

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Nefreet wrote:
Steven G. wrote:
The Alchemy skill's bonus to create alchemical items does not apply to dayjobs
It's also the same type of bonus that Crafter's Fortune grants anyways.

The Alchemy class feature grants a Competence bonus to Craft (Alchemy) checks to make alchemical items. Crafter's Fortune grants a luck bonus.

It's contestable that Alchemy (the class feature) applies to Day Jobs. Whilst Craft (Alchemy) can be used for identifying things, anyone seeking to make money from the skill is hardly going to be charging for that; they're going to be selling the stuff they made with their superior competence.

season 9 guide wrote:

Permanent bonuses from the following list affect your

Day Job check as they would any check for the rolled skill.
Temporary bonuses from sources other than crafter’s
fortune do not affect Day Job checks.
• Equipment
• Feats
• Racial bonuses
Class features
• Traits
• Familiar bonuses
• Crafter’s fortune spell

(Bolding is mine). Alchemy is a class feature that applies a permanent bonus to Craft (Alchemy).

ETA: there may have been wording in older Guides to the effect that bonuses applicable to Day Job rolls had to be applicable to every use of the skill, as andreww alluded to upthread, but there doesn't seem to be any such restriction now. The current wording seems pretty clear, much more so than the wording used in older Guides. (I've also looked at the organised play FAQ and found nothing there about Day Jobs there.)

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

supervillan wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Steven G. wrote:
The Alchemy skill's bonus to create alchemical items does not apply to dayjobs
It's also the same type of bonus that Crafter's Fortune grants anyways.
The Alchemy class feature grants a Competence bonus to Craft (Alchemy) checks to make alchemical items. Crafter's Fortune grants a luck bonus.

Thanks for catching that. I've been treating it as a competence bonus this whole time.

But regarding the second point, you missed something:

season 9 guide wrote:

Permanent bonuses from the following list affect your Day Job check as they would any check for the rolled skill.

Temporary bonuses from sources other than crafter’s fortune do not affect Day Job checks.

The Alchemist's bonus doesn't apply to any check, it only applies to checks to create items.

The argument persists, but nothing has really changed.

Silver Crusade 1/5

Nefreet wrote:
season 9 guide wrote:

Permanent bonuses from the following list affect your Day Job check as they would any check for the rolled skill.

Temporary bonuses from sources other than crafter’s fortune do not affect Day Job checks.

The Alchemist's bonus doesn't apply to any check, it only applies to checks to create items.

The argument persists, but nothing has really changed.

I think you've misconstrued the text. "Permanent bonuses from the following list affect your day job check as they would any check for the rolled skill" does not mean "Permanent bonuses from the following list affect your day job check if they would apply to any check for the rolled skill."

Taking the words at their ordinary English language meaning, "as they would any check for the rolled skill" means "just like any other check made with that skill"; ergo, if you have a permanent bonus that applies to a day job skill, you can use it. The tests are:
1. is it a permanent bonus?
2. does it appear on the list in the guide?
3. does it make sense to apply the bonus to a check that makes you money?

The third test is essentially my own, common-sense refereeing test. It's the "ask the GM" test.

5/5

supervillan wrote:
ETA: there may have been wording in older Guides to the effect that bonuses applicable to Day Job rolls had to be applicable to every use of the skill, as andreww alluded to upthread, but there doesn't seem to be any such restriction now. The current wording seems pretty clear, much more so than the wording used in older Guides. (I've also looked at the organised play FAQ and found nothing there about Day Jobs there.)

I found the reference yesterday. It was a John Compton post but it related to using items for your day job and related to the Mask of Stony Demneanor. Items needed to apply to all uses of the skill rather than specific elements.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Steven G. wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
Philippe Lam wrote:
Quandary wrote:

I don't know. They call it a Day Job. Seems reasonable to assume it happens during the day.

Like what else would you call a job done during the day? Night-only bonus would not apply, but this sounds legit.
Crafter's Fortune gets a continued bonus and can be recasted as long as needed. Strength of the Sun works only on half of a day when a Day Job is decided on an identical continued posit than Crafter's. Hence why it doesn't work. How it's worded doesn't open confusion.
The problem with this argument is that it takes a decent chunk of the day to re-up crafters fortune so I just see pedantism at work. That's why I said it works no differently than a dozen other options.

It takes only 1 minute to craft an extract, followed by a standard action to drink it. That can be done shortly before the previous one expires.

Alchemy wrote:

Mixing an extract takes 1 minute of work—most alchemists prepare many extracts at the start of the day or just before going on an adventure, but it’s not uncommon for an alchemist to keep some (or even all) of his daily extract slots open so that he can prepare extracts in the field as needed.

----

An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion—the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist. An alchemist can draw and drink an extract as a standard action. The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level.

Crafter's Fortune wrote:

School transmutation; Level alchemist 1

Effect
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature
Duration 1 day/level or until discharged (D)
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
Description
The target is struck by inspiration and gains a +5 luck bonus on its next Craft skill check.
The reason leadership allowed this...

So where did you copy the incorrect version of the spell from? That might answer my question as to why everyone is so confused by my statements. And yes I'm amply aware of spellcaster mechanics which is why the hour stays. There also is faster prep time than the two minutes too.

Silver Crusade 1/5

andreww wrote:
supervillan wrote:
ETA: there may have been wording in older Guides to the effect that bonuses applicable to Day Job rolls had to be applicable to every use of the skill, as andreww alluded to upthread, but there doesn't seem to be any such restriction now. The current wording seems pretty clear, much more so than the wording used in older Guides. (I've also looked at the organised play FAQ and found nothing there about Day Jobs there.)
I found the reference yesterday. It was a John Compton post but it related to using items for your day job and related to the Mask of Stony Demneanor. Items needed to apply to all uses of the skill rather than specific elements.

I found John's post too, with your pointer.

So we have a developer post from 2014 (season 5) giving a ruling on equipment (a ruling that makes sense for an item like the Mask of Stony Demeanour, I readily agree). But that ruling hasn't been clearly incorporated into the text of the subsequent Guides. I do think that the season 9 Guide is a lot clearer than the older ones, but it's not specifying that permanent bonuses from items must apply to every use of a skill to be valid for a day job roll, and it's not saying that permanent bonuses from other sources must apply to every use of a skill either.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

We're interpreting the part I bolded earlier differently, then.

I think it does indicate that bonuses must apply to every use of the skill in order to qualify for Day Job checks.

Perhaps it will be clarified further in the Season 10 Guide.

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