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cleric level is based on how many cleric hit die they have is it not?
Not at all!
The level of a character in a particular class. For a character with levels in only one class, class level and character level are the same.
A character's level represents his overall ability and power. There are three types of levels. Class level is the number of levels of a specific class possessed by a character. Character level is the sum of all of the levels possessed by a character in all of his classes.
actually hd grant levels
Also incorrect.
Hit Dice represent a creature's general level of power and skill. As a creature gains levels, it gains additional Hit Dice.
Hit points are an abstraction signifying how robust and healthy a creature is at the current moment. To determine a creature's hit points, roll the dice indicated by its Hit Dice. A creature gains maximum hit points if its first Hit Die roll is for a character class level. Creatures whose first Hit Die comes from an NPC class or from his race roll their first Hit Die normally.
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would still be treated as having no levels for the purposes of alignment detectionClass HD does equal HD, but the table calls out class level for clerics and paladins, which is not the same as HD.
A 5th level Cleric/4th level Fighter would have 9HD, meaning a faint aura from HD, but would have 5 class levels, meaning a strong aura overall.
Aligned creature, Aligned Undead and Aligned outsider have a column for x or lower HD/levels
Cleric or paladin of an aligned deity has a minimum value of 1 with a faint aura.
As long as you have levels as cleric, paladin (and later classes with the aura feature) that is the minimum level of the aura.
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But seriously you guys and the GM need to talk with the player before you show up at a shop and there's a dude crucified upside down outside a store with a message written in his blood saying 'gone to kill more people, be back soon.'
That will end a campaign. I speak from experience.
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I read that as "the shop" not "a shop" which I took to mean the hobby store or other game site. I like my way better.But seriously you guys and the GM need to talk with the player before you show up at a shop and there's a dude crucified upside down outside a store with a message written in his blood saying 'gone to kill more people, be back soon.'
That will end a campaign. I speak from experience.
I did the EXACT same thing and it was a beautiful image.
Lesser Restoration removes the fatigued condition, but does not protect the target from becoming fatigued again when new conditions arise to cause it. So, if the target has just been on watch, not moving around much, it can work - especially if they take rest after the watch. But at some point the target that is simply staying awake will need to move. Once they start walking around, any hours past 8 since they last slept become Forced March conditions.
So you mentioned a murder spree, sounds like movement. Each hour, CON check rises by +2 on the DC. In any hour that check fails PC takes non-lethal damage and is fatigued again. If they cure that up or use another LR they can remove that fatigue - for an hour. They still have to check the next hour of moving around with all the cumulative penalties - neither curing or LR removes the penalties, only actual rest.
So, in all probability, you are looking at a lot of spell use of cures or LR's to negate the forced march effects. At some point that spell tank runs dry. The effects of a LR are not ongoing.
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The effects of a LR are not ongoing.No, but it is instantaneous. You cast the spell and the condition is gone.
This notion of treating the condition as if it's still there after the fact is kind of an odd one.
The Fatigued condition is gone.
The 8 hours of work already done aren't.They are 2 different things.
About enchanting stuff, note this too:
If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster).
So, unless he is using a secure building, a Rope trick area or some other secured space he will net only half the work that he would normally get.
Then there is this stuff:
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit.
To me it say that you can't "force enchant". I.e., if you are enchant after you have already done 8 hours of march/adventuring/work you get nothing (unless you are using the enchant while adventuring method). You are doing the equivalent of a forced march, something that is prohibited by the rules about enchanting.
The effects of a LR are not ongoing.No, but it is instantaneous. You cast the spell and the condition is gone.
This notion of treating the condition as if it's still there after the fact is kind of an odd one.
The Fatigued condition is gone.
The 8 hours of work already done aren't.
They are 2 different things.
Totally agree, but the original question postulated a target of the spell that went off wandering about. The fatigue is gone for now, but in one hour you have to make the Forced March CON check, then an hour later at -2, then an hour later at -4, then an hour later at -6 - until you sleep. If you fail that first save, you are fatigued and suffer NL damage. So you use another LR or cure the NL damage to get rid of that fatigue. The next hour, still have the -4 (DC 14). Fail again, you are fatigued. You don't get 24 hours refreshment from casting LR. It just ends the fatigued condition until you trigger a new one.
A sleep deficient character with a high CON could go quite a while. Add in a cleric with healing powers and LR spells, a lot longer. High level - even longer. But as the hours of movement roll on the penalty rises unabated -
after 36 hours if you were active 8 in the first 24 and 12 of the next 12, the CON check DC is still a monster 34. For really high level characters or ones with lots of curative power, you could go for days and days taking lethal damage and curing it, using LR's when the sleep weariness catches up, but for most you will pass out or choose to sleep within that 48 hours.
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Sure, if you march/work for 4 hours every day and then spend 19 hours reading and playing and one recovering your clerical spells, you will not not suffer for forced march penalties.
Pathfinder is not a crafting simulator, so you don't find rules about working overtime, but all the existing references are for 8 hours of effective work (forced march and enchanting time). That don't necessarily mean that you are spending 8 hours at the workplace. You can easily spend more that 8 hours there, but you get an average of 8 hours of work.
The other time is spent cooking, eating, going to the bathroom, speaking with costumers, putting less effort for each hour of work and so on.
If you want to squeeze more effective working hours you have to make an extra effort, hence the check for fatigue.
Fatigue and mental damage for lacking sleep for several days isn't covered by the rules (unless there is something in the Horror books), but it is hinted in a few locations, like the sleepless mythical power: "You no longer require sleep, don't become fatigued or exhausted from lack of sleep, and are immune to sleep effects." Simply how to implement the effect is left in the GM hands, depending on the game circumstances.
Not that Lesser Restoration remove fatigue and ability damage, but not the need for sleep.
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It actually does remove all the mechanical need for sleep though. All lack of sleep does mechanically is make you fatigued and then exhausted if you were still fatigued.
Adding anything else is a houserule. Which is fine, but we're in the rules forum right now.
This.
The penalty for not sleeping is removed via the spell. It doesn't get worse the next night because there _is nothing_ to get worse. Just the same fatigue, which can be removed again.
Agreed. the spell is hitting the reset button on sleep.
The problem with the situation isn't game mechanics. That being said, nightly murder sprees should draw in-game attention from someone that can handle a lone cleric, eh?
I wouldn't even get into that situation though as there are a lot of "rules" situation that break the game. This isn't Magic the Gathering.
That's fine. If you want to tell your players that they're getting tired after 23 hours and at 23 hours and 50 minutes thet cast lesser restoration and 10 minutes later you say they're tired and fatigued (because LR does not in any way prevent conditions) but the other guy who waits and gets tired and fatigued casts it and you say "You're now well rested because you're tired and fatigued." just understand how strange that sounds.
It's much like heat/cold damage that accumulates over time: If it's by the hour, you can't heal ANY of that damage as it happens but at the 60 min mark you might magically have 6 points damage. ANY effect that's timed is going to product funky results like this.
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It actually does remove all the mechanical need for sleep though. All lack of sleep does mechanically is make you fatigued and then exhausted if you were still fatigued.
Adding anything else is a houserule. Which is fine, but we're in the rules forum right now.
Sleepless (Su): You no longer require sleep, don't become fatigued or exhausted from lack of sleep, and are immune to sleep effects.
Lack of sleep, not physical fatigue. SL remove physical fatigue.
Fatigue from Lack of Sleep
Characters who do not get a full night’s sleep may suffer the effects of fatigue. If a PC does not get at least 6 hours of sleep, she must make a DC 15 Fortitude save or be fatigued and take a –1 penalty on all other checks and saving throws against sleep effects. A second night without sleep requires another DC 15 Fortitude save. A failed save results in the character becoming exhausted and the penalties increasing to –2. A third failed save on the next night increases the penalties to –3.
Lesser restoration don't remove the penalty to the successive saves.
Not needing sleep is a characteristic of some type of creature: Elemental, Construct, Oozes, Outsiders Plants, Undead, maybe others.
So, while there isn't a specified effect for not sleeping, implying that that is the equivalent of not needing sleep is stretching the rules in directions where thy are not intended to go.
The rules simply leave that to the GM adjudication.
Well it's clearly an argument of treating the symptoms but not the cause, and there's 2 camps.
This.
To make similar examples where Lesser Restoration cure a symptom but not a cause:
if a character is suffering from a disease that cause stat damage, Lesser Restoration can remove the damage, but will not cure the disease. If the disease impose a penalty to the save after some time, the character still get that penalty, even if the damage has been cured by LS.
The LR removes the fatigued condition from lack of sleep, but not for moving around when you do not sleep. That's separate and applies to creatures who do not need sleep unless it is stated otherwise. As the rule clearly states:
"A character can walk for more than 8 hours in a day by making a forced march. For each hour of marching beyond 8 hours, a Constitution check (DC 10, +2 per extra hour) is required. If the check fails, the character takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from a forced march becomes fatigued. Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue. It’s possible for a character to march into unconsciousness by pushing himself too hard."
So staying awake for days and sitting still, sure - you can remove the fatigued condition for lack of sleep. But MOVING around still applies. If you just keep moving The Forced March rules still apply until you rest (sleep or otherwise) enough that your have not moved around for 8 of the last 24 hours.
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@2bz2p Nope. A day is a 24 hour period. Not sleeping doesn't factor into that at all. The forced march rules don't even mention sleeping, so what you're suggesting is purely a houserule.
@Diego Rossi Upon second reading it does seem like you have to keep making saves each day and take those penalties even if you remove the condition imparted by lack of sleep.
But several people in this thread were acting as if the fatigued condition magically came back after you removed it during that same day. Lesser restoration removes all the penalties from not sleeping until you fail one of those saves.
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2bz2p: Overland movement "Characters covering long distances cross-country use overland movement." Forced march is for non-stop, continuous walking. Unless your "movement is measured in miles per hour or miles per day", the forced march rules don't apply.
Shopping, crafting, scouting, hunting, ect ISN'T non-stop walking and doesn't apply. For instance, is you're sitting while crafting, that isn't walking. If you're browsing though shops, that isn't continuous walking. And if you have a mount, you can get around 24/7 and never walk.
Forced March is not a house rule, its RAW. Your just POed because it is not what you want it to be. A non-sleeping creature still is subject to Force March rules. It doesn't mention sleeping because sleeping does not apply to Forced March or being free of it. If you move around for 8 hours, sleep an hour, and move around for 8 more - you are in Forced March all 8 of those additional hours. If you march for 36 straight hours straight, your saves keep on getting worse, DC58 in the 36th hour. That's the RAW - deal with it.
Forced March is not a house rule, its RAW.
It's RAW... The issue is you're applying it in an incorrect situation. Unless the character is in overland movement mode, moving miles per hours/days, it doesn't apply.
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2bz2p: Overland movement "Characters covering long distances cross-country use overland movement." Forced march is for non-stop, continuous walking. Unless your "movement is measured in miles per hour or miles per day", the forced march rules don't apply.
Shopping, crafting, scouting, hunting, ect ISN'T non-stop walking and doesn't apply. For instance, is you're sitting while crafting, that isn't walking. If you're browsing though shops, that isn't continuous walking. And if you have a mount, you can get around 24/7 and never walk.
Shopping: not forced march
Crafting: gray area. It has a 8 hour counter. You aren't walking around much, but you are doing strenuous activity that can't go above 8 hours.
Claiming that the two fatigue counters are separate is questionable.
Souting, hunting: Seriously? You are doing those standing still or moving a short distance?
"Forced march is for non-stop, continuous walking." False. Marching includes stops for eating, consulting the maps and so on. It don't say anywhere "non-stop, constant walking". It is for walking more than 8 hours in a day. Rule wise you can walk 1 hour,stop for 2 and repeat that 8 times in a day and you have done 8 hours of march in a day.
"A day" in the rules is used both as "24 hours exactly" and as "a period between 2 extended rests" that can be a bit shorter or longer than 24 hours. The two uses aren't interchangeable, so you should look the contest.
Souting, hunting: Seriously? You are doing those standing still or moving a short distance?
When you move short distances, are you moving at miles per hour/day? If not, you are NOT using overland movement.
"Forced march is for non-stop, continuous walking." False. Marching includes stops for eating, consulting the maps and so on. It don't say anywhere "non-stop, constant walking". It is for walking more than 8 hours in a day. Rule wise you can walk 1 hour,stop for 2 and repeat that 8 times in a day and you have done 8 hours of march in a day.
It's made for 1 hour blocks of movement. If you aren't doing that, you aren't using overland movement.
Forced March: In a day of normal walking, a character walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent making and breaking camp, resting, and eating.
A day represents 8 hours of actual travel time.
Rest times, eating, camping, ect are NOT counted in the 8 hours of movement.
Characters covering long distances cross-country use overland movement.
So NOT for short distances.
"A day" in the rules is used both as "24 hours exactly" and as "a period between 2 extended rests" that can be a bit shorter or longer than 24 hours. The two uses aren't interchangeable, so you should look the contest.
You should look at overland movement.
For a sailing ship, it represents 24 hours.
It CLEARLY sets a day of overland movement at 24hr... Rowed boats [10 hours/day] ALSO have a rule that they can gain an extra 14 hours a day movement by floating along with the water. So 10 + 14 = 24 hours for a days movement...
In addition to 10 hours of being rowed, the vehicle can also float an additional 14 hours, if someone can guide it, adding an additional 42 miles to the daily distance traveled.
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Socuting, hunting: Seriously? You are doing those standing still or moving a short distance?When you move short distances, are you moving at miles per hour/day? If not, you are NOT using overland movement.
Miles per hour is not a requirement. And while hunting you often move several miles. You can hunt standing still and ambushing your prey, but you don't do that 50 yards from your camp. Again, you are inventing quotes.
You place some magical power in reaching that last minute of sixty, like if walking 59 minutes had no effect, or like if walking two miles wasn't overland movement.
You realize that your position "a day is exactly 24 hours on the clock" make impossible for a cleric that has to recover spells at sunrise to recover them two days in a row from winter solstice to summer solstice (and the same applies to a cleric that recover them at sunset from summer solstice to winter solstice). The time between the two sunrises is less than 24 hours, so not a day and the cleric can't recover spells (he can do that once a day), but then he hasn't recovered them at the right time and can't recover them for the day.
In that situation "a day" is the time between a sunrise and the other, not the time on the clos.
Similarly, for people without night vision, "a day" of march is the time between dawn and dusk.
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Souting, hunting: Seriously? You are doing those standing still or moving a short distance?When you move short distances, are you moving at miles per hour/day? If not, you are NOT using overland movement.Miles per hour is not a requirement. And while hunting you often move several miles. You can hunt standing still and ambushing your prey, but you don't do that 50 yards from your camp. Again, you are inventing quotes.
Forced March: In a day of normal walking, a character walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent making and breaking camp, resting, and eating.
You're cherry picking quotes and ignoring the parts that disagree. Forced march is an OVERLAND MOVEMENT rule.
Characters covering long distances cross-country use overland movement. Overland movement is measured in miles per hour or miles per day.
IF YOU AREN'T MEASURING YOUR MOVEMENT IN "miles per hour or miles per day", YOU CAN'T USE THE FORCED MARCH RULES!!! It's not miles per minute or miles per 1/2 hour...
So it's you ignoring the rules section and what's in it and not my inventing things. Go back to the PRD, look at the overland movement section and START reading from there. JUST looking at the forced movement section in a vacuum is disingenuous.
Next move to the Movement section a bit above the overland move section that shows PC movement.
There are three movement scales, as follows:
Tactical, for combat, measured in feet (or 5-foot squares) per round.
Local, for exploring an area, measured in feet per minute.
Overland, for getting from place to place, measured in miles per hour or miles per day.
LOCAL is used "for exploring an area" and is measured in "feet per minute".
Table: Movement and Distance [for a 30' move character]
tactical (round): 30'
local (minute): 300' walk, 600' hustle, 900' (x3) run, 1200' (x4) run
Overland (one hour): 3 MILES walk, 6 MILES hustle
Overland (day): 24 MILES
OVERLAND is ONLY measures in one hour blocks. If it's less that, you are in tactical/local [even if that ends up taking you miles] as it's measures in rounds/minutes. It's super clear if you read through BOTH of the movement section. And forced March is an overland movement rule...
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You have read only part of the post, I have added to that.
You place a magical value in the clock ticking the last minute of the hour or of the day.
We play in a world where that is not relevant. Portable clocks are a rarity and probably magic or wildly inaccurate.
Ok, let me go over it.
Miles per hour is not a requirement
It's LITERALLY the second sentence in overland movement.
Overland movement is measured in miles per hour or miles per day.
And in the movement section
One Hour (Overland) <snip> miles
You place some magical power in reaching that last minute of sixty, like if walking 59 minutes had no effect, or like if walking two miles wasn't overland movement.
Not me, THE GAME does. You take environmental damage, you magically go from no damage the full die even though it represents the accumulation of damage. we're in the rules section, so I'm presenting what the rules are. If you don't like the 'magic clock ticking', feel free to house rule it away but don't pretend it's not in the game.
You realize that your position "a day is exactly 24 hours on the clock" make impossible for a cleric that has to recover spells at sunrise to recover them two days in a row
Not so as the cleric's 'time' isn't defined by a timeline. Time's definition is as valid as an event as it is an exact hour and minute of the day: as such, it's a non-issue. Add to that that the time difference is around a minute for sunrise/sunset, and at most it's an extra minute of waiting at sunrise/sunset to either start meditations or receiving spells [the sunrise/sunset event is still going on].
This ISN'T the case with other rules, like movement, as it HAS a scale given to use and clear measurements. Overland CLEARLY is measured in 24 hours as proved by ship movement: the exact hour of the day you leave doesn't matter as you can't leave 8 hours before dawn to get an additional days travel [16 hours] because half way through your travel you happen to see dawn.
If you try to tell me that lack of sleep is different from fatigue and that lesser restoration only cures the fatigue... then wouldn't they still be fatigued? Since the cause would still be there.
This I would consider silly.
The question seems to be if the fort save vs fatigue returns to base or continues to accumulate a -1 per day of not sleeping. IMO, removing the condition is the equivalent of 8 hours sleep ["After 8 hours of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued"] but I can see the other side and considering the rule is from an AP I don't see much chance of any clarity coming from the DEV's.
Other than that, the only other thing seems to be the 'boot strapping' of forced march into other non-overland movement activities.
If you try to tell me that lack of sleep is different from fatigue and that lesser restoration only cures the fatigue... then wouldn't they still be fatigued? Since the cause would still be there.
This I would consider silly.
Point of order: Lack of sleep is very much different from fatigue. Lots of things can make you fatigued that have nothing to do with sleep other than sleep being the go-to method of removing the condition.
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Point of order: Lack of sleep is very much different from fatigue. Lots of things can make you fatigued that have nothing to do with sleep other than sleep being the go-to method of removing the condition.If you try to tell me that lack of sleep is different from fatigue and that lesser restoration only cures the fatigue... then wouldn't they still be fatigued? Since the cause would still be there.
This I would consider silly.
Sleep cures fatigue... because fatigue is a form of tiredness. As in... needing rest. IE sleep. No matter what causes fatigue it is an expression of needing rest. If you are no longer fatigued then you no longer need 8 hours of rest which is the cure for the fatigued condition.
Imagine if someone tried to argue that HP loss is not actually healed by the cure spells, you just look cured. Yet still die if your total damage taken would kill you before considering magical healing. That you only really heal damage by natural healing.
But even all that aside, you didn't address the important issue. Why would their fatigue be cured, then, if they still need the sleep? And if they don't still need the sleep... why would they still have lingering lack of sleep?
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These arguments would make more sense if the game expressed the removal of fatigue as ignoring the fatigue. There are items that function like that in the game. Such as the Everwake Amulet.
Then you can magically prevent suffering fatigue but still accrue fatigue/exhaustion. Which I believe could be a very fun house rule to play with.
(An example of this can be seen in the Wheel of Time series)
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Except that the examples that can't be cured until you deal with the underlying condition specifically call that out in their own rules.
The rules for lack of sleep causing fatigue don't do this.
And as brought up earlier in this thread, in Curse of the Crimson Throne there's even an NPC that has trouble sleeping and goes to the temple each day in the morning to have lesser restoration cast on themself to get rid of the fatigued condition. I think that shows the intent of the rules pretty well....
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how to deal with a character doing that for a lr induced murderspee , while said character is out, move the camp
I find hopping on a ship to another continent [or plane or planet] works well. ;)