Does Lesser Restoration make it so you do not need to sleep?


Rules Questions

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Jurassic Pratt wrote:
And as brought up earlier in this thread, in Curse of the Crimson Throne there's even an NPC that has trouble sleeping and goes to the temple each day in the morning to have lesser restoration cast on themself to get rid of the fatigued condition. I think that shows the intent of the rules pretty well....

I wouldn't mind knowing more about this individual. It's possible there's something else involved here, possibly not. It could be a case of the author just going with something cool or it could be a case of there actually being more hindrances and problems that are being glossed over. Could you put up the pertinent information or someplace to read it, since you didn't even give me a name to search for, and 'Curse of Crimson Throne' and 'can't sleep' seems to bring up some drug called Shiver.


Pizza Lord wrote:
The question then becomes, if you remove fatigue from lack of rest, just how long would you be free from becoming fatigued again; 24 hours, 8 hours, 1 hour, etc.

The rule from the AP is daily fort checks, so even if you go with increasing DC's it's still a daily check. Note the rule included what's happening if you're already fatigued, you become exhausted, so I can't see checking earlier for removed fatigue after removal than you would to see if you became exhausted without the removal.

Grand Lodge

Curse of the Crimson Throne NPC Text:
CotCT Text wrote:

Since Eodred II’s death, Cressida hasn’t slept, yet she bears her exhaustion

well, in no small part due to regular visits from a priest of
Abadar who casts lesser restoration on her to help in fighting
back fatigue. She sighs deeply as she speaks to the PCs.

There were several other NPCs who used similar tactics if you review the first page of this thread.

Edit: Found another

Shattered Star Book 4 NPC:
Shattered Star NPC wrote:
Ardathanatus spends all of his time in this chamber, relying upon lesser restoration to fight the fatigue brought on by lack of sleep and heroes’ feast whenever he gets hungry.
Shattered Star NPC wrote:
Before Combat Ardathanatus casts lesser restoration every day to remove the effects of fatigue brought on by lack of sleep, then casts heroes’ feast so that he and the creatures that aid him in his long-running ritual can be fed.

This one is particularly telling as he only preps one instance of lesser restoration each day according to his stat block.

Jurassic Pratt wrote:
Except that the examples that can't be cured until you deal with the underlying condition specifically call that out in their own rules.

Sure, but you could also have people claiming that the wording for cold weather damage only says the fatigue is removed when the non-lethal is, and that it just says the damage can't be healed until warm. It doesn't say the fatigue can't be removed, but allowing that while ignoring that you still have the frostbite would clearly be considered doing an end run around the intent. Also, expecting paragraphs of clarifications when there are already a fair number of examples is being unreasonable.

Just like they don't have to spell out every situation or peccadillo in every spell when they have a precedent in another. Like natural armor being considered +0 found in barkskin, or normal clothes being consider AC 0 for magic vestment, they could just assume you understand what their saying with another spell or affect that would increase natural armor.
Or the fact that lesser shadow's strength drain is not listed as negative energy even though shadows and greater shadows have it listed.
Or that you have to look at the cure light wounds spell to find out that positive energy harms undead. You would think they would say that in the Undead listing. Makes sense, right? But not, they just say that undead are healed by negative energy, nothing about positive energy. They put it in a spell, and that basically is considered a common-place location for a rule that expands to cover all positive energy. Maybe there's mention in another place, but it probably isn't going to be in as logical a place as the Undead listing for being negative energy creatures.

Saying they purposefully left it out of some situations is fair (not saying it isn't reasonable to question it), but when there's so many clearly explained other situations involving fatigue and whether and how you can remove the condition (and the fact that spell does not prevent regaining it), it's unreasonable to expect them to write out everything long-form every time.

Quote:
Curse of the Crimson Throne NPC Text ...

Thanks, obviously easier to look up a unique name. But I have to honestly say... Is that it or are you holding some details back in reserve? I see that she is considered to be bearing exhaustion (obviously just descriptive) but that would seem to indicate that she is still exceedingly tired. I see that she receives regular visits and applications of lesser restoration but not a single indication of what that means, is it daily, hourly, every 8 hours? Is she considered fatigue free for the whole duration or does she get fatigued a bit sometime in between and just bear through it until the next LR application? I am honestly asking, because I only have what you are stating to go by. If she's not fatigued when the PCs face her (is she an enemy, I don't know) and if not is it only because she just received an LR infusion?

These are fair to ask if you fairly want to use an NPC in an AP as a basis for a rules declaration, but then ask for explicit spelling out in every other example of how fatigue might work. Again, I am not saying fatigue can't be removed for lack of sleep, I am just saying it is not the same as being rested and without the other penalties (whatever they may be, since we're using APs for basis, apparently).

Quote:
Shattered Star Book 4 NPC

That is a better example. Just need to make sure what sleep system they were using for that AP and whether anyone bothered to worry about how accurate it was (most people don't care likely, like tracking ammunition).

Grand Lodge

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That's not something that's going to be listed. But considering this AP was written after the sleep rules we've been discussing were written we can assume they're using whatever sleep rules they consider the default rules to use.


Jurassic Pratt wrote:
And as brought up earlier in this thread, in Curse of the Crimson Throne there's even an NPC that has trouble sleeping and goes to the temple each day in the morning to have lesser restoration cast on themself to get rid of the fatigued condition. I think that shows the intent of the rules pretty well....

That's a much more persuasive argument regarding rules as intended than equating "fatigue" with "needs sleep".

Liberty's Edge

Jurassic Pratt wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

There were several other NPCs who used similar tactics if you review the first page of this thread.

Edit: Found another

** spoiler omitted ** This one is particularly telling as he only preps one instance of lesser restoration each day according to his stat block.

As that is the descriptive text of a NPC nd not a rule it can mean anything from "literally she hasn't slept for several days" to "she hasn't adequatly slept for several day". The latter is relatively common even in real life, when we get minutes naps, then we work for a time and we get another short nap.

In that situation our concentration and efficiency decrease, but we can go on for a long time.
The second example you made is exactly that. It speak of "lack of sleep", not of not sleeping at all.

Liberty's Edge

Jurassic Pratt wrote:
That's not something that's going to be listed. But considering this AP was written after the sleep rules we've been discussing were written we can assume they're using whatever sleep rules they consider the default rules to use.

Curse of the Crimson Throne is a 3.5 adventure by Paizo, printed in 2008. It was updated to Pathfinder in the recent edition, but I doubt that anyone bothered updating that line of text.

The sleep rules are in Carrion Crown, printed 2010 in for Pathfinder.

Grand Lodge

Diego, I was talking about Shattered Star. And he's not sleeping so he can keep performing a ritual. He hasn't slept at all.


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Diego Rossi wrote:
The sleep rules are in Carrion Crown, printed 2010 in for Pathfinder.

Pathfinder's sleep rules are in the FAQ I already linked, from April 2013.

Any sleep rules from adventure paths are optional variants.

Liberty's Edge

Matthew Downie wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
The sleep rules are in Carrion Crown, printed 2010 in for Pathfinder.

Pathfinder's sleep rules are in the FAQ I already linked, from April 2013.

Any sleep rules from adventure paths are optional variants.

Even better as Shattered star was printed in 2012, so, again, before the sleep rules.

And to cite James Jacobs, what is put in AP, especially the descriptive text, is "what work better for the adventure", not a hard rule for general play.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
The sleep rules are in Carrion Crown, printed 2010 in for Pathfinder.

Pathfinder's sleep rules are in the FAQ I already linked, from April 2013.

Any sleep rules from adventure paths are optional variants.

Even better as Shattered star was printed in 2012, so, again, before the sleep rules.

And to cite James Jacobs, what is put in AP, especially the descriptive text, is "what work better for the adventure", not a hard rule for general play.

You missed Matthew Downie's point. Everyone has been going off the variant rules from the AP's. If we're discounting them, there ARE no DC: it's just cause and effect.

Sleep: What penalties happen if a character stays up all night without sleep?
The character is fatigued.

This means if you ignore your rest for the day you gain fatigued. If you remove it, the trigger doesn't activate again until you 'stay up all night' again. If that isn't the case then the condition would instantly reapply and that means there is NEVER a way to remove fatigued as the spell only ever removes the condition and not the cause. Since the spell clearly is meant to remove the condition, it seems clear which way it's meant to work.

Grand Lodge

Oh, I had assumed that the Carrion Crown rules had beenough reprinted to the core line since people kept bringing them up.

Well that's settled then. Using the default sleep rules of Pathfinder as of the core line FAQ, lesser restoration removes the penalties of not sleeping. And we have multiple NPCs from official adventures that use it for this exact reason.

And Diego, you've got your dates wrong or something. Shattered Star was significantly after Carrion Crown where those other, alternative sleep rules were written. The alternative rules are in Pathfinder #44 and Shattered Star book 4 is #64.


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Alchemist 23 wrote:

Our Cleric is trying to use Lesser Restoration to make it so she does not need to sleep ever. Just meditate for an hour to redo spells. She's using this to stay up an go on murder sprees while the rest of the party is asleep.

1. No Evils.

2. No splitting the party. YOU are the DM, just tell them you dont want this anymore, and when the cleric goes out "you encounter nothing".

3. Looking at another post, I see there is a possible PvP issue, stop that right now.


graystone wrote:

This means if you ignore your rest for the day you gain fatigued. If you remove it, the trigger doesn't activate again until you 'stay up all night' again. If that isn't the case then the condition would instantly reapply and that means there is NEVER a way to remove fatigued as the spell only ever removes the condition and not the cause. Since the spell clearly is meant to remove the condition, it seems clear which way it's meant to work.

Except sleeping.

Just like how I wouldn't allow a man on fire to have the flames put out because I cast cure light wounds.

If all you do is cure the consequence and not the cause, why complain when the consequence keeps happening?

Disease sticks around. Fire keeps burning, and never sleeping keeps one fatigued.

Grand Lodge

Except those things you listed explicitly say they keep doing those things until you cure them instead of the symptoms. Diseases keep having effects until you cure them because that's what they rule say, fire keeps hurting you because the rules say you keep taking damage each round while on fire.

Not sleeping just makes you fatigued. If you cure that fatigue you're fine. And once again, it's pretty damn clear Paizo agrees with that since at least 3 NPCs use lesser restoration to remove the penalties of not sleeping for multiple days at a time.


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Cavall wrote:
Just like how I wouldn't allow a man on fire to have the flames put out because I cast cure light wounds.

That's NOT equivalent: damage does not equal condition. If we're talking about fire, it's like catching on fire: what you're saying is equivalent of someone that's catches on fire and makes their second ref save to put it out, only to tell them they catch fire again... :P IMO that only happens if your hit by more fire [or more lack of sleep for fatigue]

Cavall wrote:
If all you do is cure the consequence and not the cause, why complain when the consequence keeps happening?

If I cure sickness, do I immediately fall sick again? Poison restart immediately? Curing/removing DOES remove the consequences or silly thing like removing blindness not allowing you to see happens.

Cavall wrote:
Disease sticks around. Fire keeps burning, and never sleeping keeps one fatigued.

If that's true then lack of sleep doesn't make you fatigued as that can be removed just like catching in fire and disease can be removed. Where does it state ONLY one thing can remove this fatigue that makes it unique from all other fatigues that are allowed to be cured?


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It seems clear that the non-AP rules (namely the FAQ) do effectively allow lesser restoration to replace sleep for most purposes. It doesn't appear to remove the need to rest for arcane casters who wish to recover their spell slots, and there might be some other niche effects I'm forgetting. But Cletus the Cleric can effectively never sleep after hitting 3rd level if he dedicates a spell slot to the purpose. And 3rd level paladins can be implacable determinators.

Is this a good rule? I've gone back and forth a few times, but really I can't see any reason that it would break verisimilitude. Thematically it might be interesting to impose long-term effects, similar to long-term drug use, but it depends on what sort of flavor you want the game to have.


Graystone how can you quote me saying something and actually say I'm saying the opposite.

It does remove the consequences. I said that. It just doesn't stop the source. Your burning logic was extremely faulty. If I cure poison damage is the poison gone? No. Same with burn damage, he's still on fire. Your "he made the reflex save" would be "he slept." Not "he removed fatigue".

Removing the penalties for not sleeping does not mean he doesn't to sleep. They will come back.

You and I just differ as to when. You say 24 hours. I don't think so, personally.


But here's the point guys.

Why does the DM care? Because the Player is using this loophole to do funny things, like murder sprees, solo adventuring and PvP.

The loophole doesnt matter that much as the murder sprees, solo adventuring and PvP.

It is like arguing whether or not the law allows a man to buy so many tonnes of fertilizer when his stated objection is to blow up City Hall. ;-)


I honestly think the reason he cares is because he let a player of the leash and needs a reason (read: excuse) to not derail his game further rather than saying "no."

Which is abundantly clear to me in every post the OP made.


DrDeth wrote:

But here's the point guys.

Why does the DM care? Because the Player is using this loophole to do funny things, like murder sprees, solo adventuring and PvP.

The loophole doesnt matter that much as the murder sprees, solo adventuring and PvP.

It is like arguing whether or not the law allows a man to buy so many tonnes of fertilizer when his stated objection is to blow up City Hall. ;-)

That's really not a topic to be covered by a Rules Questions thread, though.

As for needing a reason/excuse to stop the player from acting like a jerk . . . Adult up and tell the player to stop acting like a jerk.


Cavall wrote:
It does remove the consequences. I said that. It just doesn't stop the source. Your burning logic was extremely faulty. If I cure poison damage is the poison gone? No. Same with burn damage, he's still on fire. Your "he made the reflex save" would be "he slept." Not "he removed fatigue".

But you are STILL talking about damage and not a condition. If we treat fatigue as a poison [condition] the 'damage' would be can't "run nor charge and takes a –2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity". Added 2 to your str and dex to try to negate fatigued is the equivalent to your damage analogy.

Cavall wrote:
Removing the penalties for not sleeping does not mean he doesn't to sleep. They will come back.

It sure will... When they miss the next nights sleep and not before.

Cavall wrote:
You and I just differ as to when. You say 24 hours. I don't think so, personally.

Ah... What other option is there that isn't pulled out of thin air? The time period is 'missed night sleep'. Either you actually CAN'T remove the fatigue or it's on another missed night's sleep. Since nothing in the FAQ lists other conditions for removal, like frostbite fatigue, it seems pretty clear to me.

DrDeth wrote:
Why does the DM care?

Honestly, I don't think we've been debating with the DM in mind: He just has to 'crack the whip' and put his foot down. If he can't do that, the result of this rule isn't going to do anything.

Myself, I've found the debate over sleep FAR more interesting than the OP's reason for the question. ;)


And also his armor does not work so just let the paladin smite...


The problem is that how/why LR gets rid of fatigue isn't specified well enough and therefore it's up to each individual GM to decide.

If you have it simply remove the condition the condition could immediately come back because, as Cavall is saying, it doesn't stop the thing causing the fatigue. (To use fire as an example... if someone is tired and you get rid of fatigue they're still tired and therefore become fatigued again in much the same way that someone standing in a giant inferno and on fire they can make their reflex save to put out the fire that's on them but then they'll almost immediately catch fire again.)

If you rule that LR removed the condition by having it act as if the character slept for 8 hours then it's as if the character slept and won't have to worry about fatigue for most of the rest of the day. To support going with this call I'll point out that LR removes 1D4 points of temporary ability damage to one stat whereas sleep removes 1 point of temporary damage from all stats. Yeah, not quite the same but really close. So, with that, I would rule that LR acts as if the character slept for 8 hours.

Regrettably, there isn't a solid answer to this question and any scenario given could likely have an argument made against it.

Grand Lodge

Except that there's no mention of it being a lingering effect that keeps applying if you remove it and the 3 NPCs in official Paizo products by various authors that all use the spell for this exact purpose.

Paizo's interpretation seems pretty cut and dry.


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If someone just ran too long, and you cure their fatigue, well, they still just ran to long, so they become fatigued.

If the barbian stopped raging a few rounds ago, and you cure her fatigue, well, she still stopped raging a few rounds ago, so she becomes fatigued.

If you fail your save vs Touch of Fatigue, and someone cures your Fatigue, you immediately become fatigued, because the spells duration is not over yet.

Do you all see how absurd that argument is?

The condition is "needing to sleep" and the frequency is 24 hours. If your taking dex damage every minute, you take it again in one minute, not immediately.


You're right, it doesn't say it's lingering. It says that if you don't sleep you become fatigued.
If you cure the fatigue you still haven't slept so why wouldn't the fatigue come back right away?
(The obvious answer to that is "Because LR removes fatigue, removing fatigue means you were tired and you no longer are [as demonstrated by it getting rid of fatigue caused by a barbarian's rage], being not tired is the equivalent of having slept.)

As I said, I would consider LR to count as having slept if it was used to remove fatigue. Unfortunately, LR doesn't say anything about if having it cast on you counts as sleep so I can see why people would disagree with me.

As for the 3 NPCs, I've read two of them. Who's the third?
And for my opinion on them: Crimson Throne was written for 3.5 and possibly not edited, Shattered Star is a perfectly valid argument for me as to why LR should count as sleeping but others have given their reasons for why it isn't.

Grand Lodge

There's one in Shattered Star book 1 as well, but I'm not in a position to get the text at the moment.

By far the one with the clearest wording is the one from book 4 of Shattered Star though.


Warped Savant wrote:
Unfortunately, LR doesn't say anything about if having it cast on you counts as sleep so I can see why people would disagree with me.

I think that's the wrong way to look at it. Conditions that have lingering effect have that mentioned so it's reasonable to assume that those that don't do not have any: IE. if the fatigue from lack of sleep was some special kind of fatigue that couldn't be removed without actual sleep it should be explicitly mentioned like the fatigue from frostbite/heat stroke require getting out of the extreme temperatures.


graystone wrote:
IE. if the fatigue from lack of sleep was some special kind of fatigue that couldn't be removed without actual sleep it should be explicitly mentioned like the fatigue from frostbite/heat stroke require getting out of the extreme temperatures.

Fair point.

Liberty's Edge

Jurassic Pratt wrote:

Oh, I had assumed that the Carrion Crown rules had beenough reprinted to the core line since people kept bringing them up.

Well that's settled then. Using the default sleep rules of Pathfinder as of the core line FAQ, lesser restoration removes the penalties of not sleeping. And we have multiple NPCs from official adventures that use it for this exact reason.

And Diego, you've got your dates wrong or something. Shattered Star was significantly after Carrion Crown where those other, alternative sleep rules were written. The alternative rules are in Pathfinder #44 and Shattered Star book 4 is #64.

Book 1 of Shattered star

Paizo Website wrote:
Note: You purchased this product Aug 3, 2012. View order.

Book 4

Paizo Website wrote:
Note: You purchased this product Nov 10, 2012. View order.

FAQ about sleep:

FAQ wrote:

Sleep: What penalties happen if a character stays up all night without sleep?

The character is fatigued.
posted April 2013 | back to top


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Alchemist 23 wrote:
Omnius wrote:


If the Cleric using magic coffee to go on... "murder sprees" is contributing to the narrative, then keep it. Having more time for unusual "hobbies" isn't terribly game-breaking.

To be honest we were trying to figure out a way to stop it. Its creating an arms race with her and another character against me our paladin and our fighter. She's staying up, crafting, going on murder sprees to get soulgems so she can trade them for cash and so on. Its going to end in a big PVP cluster F and we were hoping we could at least slow her down.

As it stands its about to derail the game because we have to stop and kill half the party one way or the other. Also doesn't help that they are about to try and cast control construct on my Wyrwood. So yeah.

You need to talk this through, all of you - the GM included.

Air your worries and listen to the cleric's player - don't try to solve this in game!
Good Gaming:-)

Liberty's Edge

graystone wrote:
Warped Savant wrote:
Unfortunately, LR doesn't say anything about if having it cast on you counts as sleep so I can see why people would disagree with me.
I think that's the wrong way to look at it. Conditions that have lingering effect have that mentioned so it's reasonable to assume that those that don't do not have any: IE. if the fatigue from lack of sleep was some special kind of fatigue that couldn't be removed without actual sleep it should be explicitly mentioned like the fatigue from frostbite/heat stroke require getting out of the extreme temperatures.

Sadly, the FAQ fatigue for lack of sleep received only a very short reply.

Physical fatigue is surely removed, there is no question. Mental fatigue is another thing.
In RL lack of sleep cause the latter, not the former, if you don't do some strenuous activity.

The spell text was written way before the decision to have sleep cause fatigue, so it don't address directly the question.

We know that not sleeping mean that you don't refresh your mind (arcane spellcaster need to sleep to do that, LR don't help).
So, at this point the question is "not refreshing your mind has some effect beside being unable to recover arcane spells?"

Based on RL I think it should have it, but it is not really addressed by the rules.

Second, linked question "If not refreshing you mind with sleep has some effect, it can be removed with Lesser Restoration?"
Again, based on RL, I would say that that require more that 24 of total lack of sleep, but the effect would require stronger magic (at least a Restoration spell) as the effect should be persistent. LR at most would give only a temporary benefit against this kind of effect.

PRD wrote:


Rest: To prepare his daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but he must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If his rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time he has to rest in order to clear his mind, and he must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing his spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells. [/quote+

Grand Lodge

Except regardless official NPCs are doing it so Paizo clearly interprets it as being fine.

You can keep saying you don't like it or that you disagree that is should work all you want but that's a houserule. By the rules you can remove the fatigued condition and nothing says it's a persistent effect that comes back.

Multiple published NPCs are doing this across several years. The intent is crystal clear.


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Diego Rossi wrote:


Physical fatigue is surely removed, there is no question. Mental fatigue is another thing.
In RL lack of sleep cause the latter, not the former, if you don't do some strenuous activity.

Lesser Restoration trumps Touch of Idiocy, any affect applying a penalty to an ability score, and literal brain damage. Unless you want to have lack of sleep cause permanent ability drain, or over 2.5 average ability damage a night, then mental fatigue should be well within the bounds of Lesser Restoration.

It fixes mangled limbs, severe and prolonged blood loss, that swastika some prick rogue carved on your face, the harm caused by literal worms eating chunks of your literal brain. (In fairness, the worms eat your brain slightly faster than lesser restoration can restore it, if you ALSO refuse to sleep).

And no, you don't even have to sleep to prepare spells. You have to rest. As you quoted, spend 8 hours not doing anything mentally or physically taxing. You can sit up all night watching the fire absentmindedly, have the cleric cast Lesser Restoration, then go prepare your spells. It says you don't need to sleep for the entire length of your rest period, and gives no minimum amount that you must.


DrDeth wrote:
Alchemist 23 wrote:

Our Cleric is trying to use Lesser Restoration to make it so she does not need to sleep ever. Just meditate for an hour to redo spells. She's using this to stay up an go on murder sprees while the rest of the party is asleep.

1. No Evils.

2. No splitting the party. YOU are the DM, just tell them you dont want this anymore, and when the cleric goes out "you encounter nothing".

3. Looking at another post, I see there is a possible PvP issue, stop that right now.

they are not the dm they are a player in the game


Diego Rossi wrote:
Sadly, the FAQ fatigue for lack of sleep received only a very short reply.

Why sadly? If that is the extent of what they wanted the rules to be, what else is there to say? If they don't want persistent effects from lack of sleep, they did the right thing AND DIDN'T mention it. The text is only lacking if they wanted an extra effect past fatigued.

Diego Rossi wrote:
In RL lack of sleep cause the latter, not the former, if you don't do some strenuous activity.

A 20th level fighter can climb a 2000' cliff, cannonball off, bounce off the ground, hop up unimpaired and do it again... RL has little to do with many of the rules in the game.

Diego Rossi wrote:
The spell text was written way before the decision to have sleep cause fatigue, so it don't address directly the question.

That's meaningless. There should be a proviso in the rule that gives the condition if there is something special about the condition or it's removal. The spell shouldn't require an exhaustive list of how to treat each and every possible effect that can produce fatigued [and then to the same with other conditions...].

Diego Rossi wrote:
We know that not sleeping mean that you don't refresh your mind (arcane spellcaster need to sleep to do that, LR don't help).

REST not sleep. And the section you quoted explains your question about a refreshed mind: "If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells." Removing the need to sleep with a spell IMO qualifies.


graystone wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
In RL lack of sleep cause the latter, not the former, if you don't do some strenuous activity.
A 20th level fighter can climb a 2000' cliff, cannonball off, bounce off the ground, hop up unimpaired and do it again... RL has little to do with many of the rules in the game.

if they have boots of the cat they can even do so dozens of times

Liberty's Edge

Jurassic Pratt wrote:

Except regardless official NPCs are doing it so Paizo clearly interprets it as being fine.

"Official" NPC are in no way a rules source. There are plenty of errors in NPC in the APS. Even less when it is the blurb text and not the statblock.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Jurassic Pratt wrote:

Except regardless official NPCs are doing it so Paizo clearly interprets it as being fine.

"Official" NPC are in no way a source rules. There are plenty of errors in NPC in the AP. Even less when it is the blurb text and not the statblock.

Doesn't that make your side even weaker as you don't even have that little bit of evidence? Secondly, while it's true that error can happen, it's less likely to see the exact same error in different products. It seems like a more likely source of intent than the silence in the rules for the other side.

Liberty's Edge

If we take the rules literally, no one ever need to sleep, save to recover arcane spells:

prd wrote:
Fatigued: A fatigued character can neither run nor charge and takes a –2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the fatigued character to become exhausted. After 8 hours of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued.

Complete rest don't necessarily mean sleep. On the other hand we have the creature types that say "... breathe, eat, and sleep."

But there is no mechanical effect for not sleeping. Only the FAQ, but fatigue can be recovered by rest.

Liberty's Edge

toastedamphibian wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


Physical fatigue is surely removed, there is no question. Mental fatigue is another thing.
In RL lack of sleep cause the latter, not the former, if you don't do some strenuous activity.

Lesser Restoration trumps Touch of Idiocy, any affect applying a penalty to an ability score, and literal brain damage. Unless you want to have lack of sleep cause permanent ability drain, or over 2.5 average ability damage a night, then mental fatigue should be well within the bounds of Lesser Restoration.

It fixes mangled limbs, severe and prolonged blood loss, that swastika some prick rogue carved on your face, the harm caused by literal worms eating chunks of your literal brain. (In fairness, the worms eat your brain slightly faster than lesser restoration can restore it, if you ALSO refuse to sleep).

And no, you don't even have to sleep to prepare spells. You have to rest. As you quoted, spend 8 hours not doing anything mentally or physically taxing. You can sit up all night watching the fire absentmindedly, have the cleric cast Lesser Restoration, then go prepare your spells. It says you don't need to sleep for the entire length of your rest period, and gives no minimum amount that you must.

Touch of idiocy is a spell with a duration of "Duration 10 min./level". LR remove a spell effect is hardly relevant here.

If with "worm eating your brain" you mean Ear seekers, yes, LR remove stat damage. BTW Ear seekers eat flesh.

Mangled limbs. Stat damage is cured, stat drain isn't. "Mangled limbs" can refer both.
Blood loss: stat damage.
The swastika: not really. There are no rules for scars. If it dealt cha damage, the damage is removed. But it is removed even after a few days of natural healing. The latter leave scars, the former is undefined. So what you write is an opinion like mine about LR and lack of sleep.

The last one is about recovering Arcane spell is factually wrong.
Read the citation above: "To prepare his daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours." and "If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells."
Humanoid creatures need to sleep. LR don't remove the need to sleep, it remove fatigue.

Liberty's Edge

graystone wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Sadly, the FAQ fatigue for lack of sleep received only a very short reply.

Why sadly? If that is the extent of what they wanted the rules to be, what else is there to say? If they don't want persistent effects from lack of sleep, they did the right thing AND DIDN'T mention it. The text is only lacking if they wanted an extra effect past fatigued.

Diego Rossi wrote:
In RL lack of sleep cause the latter, not the former, if you don't do some strenuous activity.

A 20th level fighter can climb a 2000' cliff, cannonball off, bounce off the ground, hop up unimpaired and do it again... RL has little to do with many of the rules in the game.

Diego Rossi wrote:
The spell text was written way before the decision to have sleep cause fatigue, so it don't address directly the question.

That's meaningless. There should be a proviso in the rule that gives the condition if there is something special about the condition or it's removal. The spell shouldn't require an exhaustive list of how to treat each and every possible effect that can produce fatigued [and then to the same with other conditions...].

Diego Rossi wrote:
We know that not sleeping mean that you don't refresh your mind (arcane spellcaster need to sleep to do that, LR don't help).
REST not sleep. And the section you quoted explains your question about a refreshed mind: "If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells." Removing the need to sleep with a spell IMO qualifies.

Sadly because a bit more explaining would have resolved the issue one way or another (not saying that the reply would be "LR remove the need to sleep and the fatigue", it is a possible reply).

About no needing the sleep, you need something that remove the need to sleep, as the humanoids and most player types have ""... breathe, eat, and sleep", and that is part of the rules.


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I meant Brain Worms, maybe it has another name. But yes, it cures ability damage. Ability damage is from things far worse for your mind than not sleeping.

Diego Rossi wrote:

The last one is about recovering Arcane spell is factually wrong.

Read the citation above: "To prepare his daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours." and "If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells."
Humanoid creatures need to sleep. LR don't remove the need to sleep, it remove fatigue.

You somehow seem to have missed the sentence directly between those two sentences. You know, the one I specifically referenced in the post that you were responding to. There is the one where it says they need 8 hours of sleep, followed directly by the one that says they don't have to spend their 8 hours of sleep actually sleeping, and then the one that gives a list of activities they can do instead of sleeping.

I suspect there is no way you could have missed either of these points unless you were actively trying to do so. Guess I'm done here. Your not arguing in good faith.


toastedamphibian wrote:
Lesser Restoration trumps Touch of Idiocy, any affect applying a penalty to an ability score,

For clarity's sake, (and not to get too far off this already winding topic), I believe lesser restoration will only dispel the affect of touch of idiocy on one of the reduced abilities, so it's not quite a 'trump'. I don't believe it dispels the entire spell. The wording of greater restoration makes this a bit clearer, since that specifically says all effects reducing ability scores, rather than the specific 'one' of lesser restoration (an alternative being that it doesn't work on touch of idiocy since that affects more than one ability score). In the case of lesser restoration, that matches the normal limit of its power, which is restoring damage to one ability. Of course, by pedantic reading some people might try and allow lesser restoration to dispel beast shapes if their target is in a form with a Strength or Dexterity penalty due to size (or just the penalty part) but I am hoping people aren't going to try and advocate that. Thankfully bestow curse says it can't be dispelled, otherwise people would suddenly be removing the ones with ability penalties with lesser restoration.

toastedamphibian wrote:
I meant Brain Worms, maybe it has another name. But yes, it cures ability damage.

I can see how lesser restoration might cure 1d4 of the temporary damage, but only to one ability. Even if you used two and completely removed the damage, that doesn't remove the disease/infestation. You are still considered diseased (just like a sleep-deprived character removing their fatigue is still sleep-deprived, whatever that may entail, whether defined now or possibly later). You would still make disease saves, and you would still need two consecutive to remove it (casting LR doesn't count as one), and you would still spread it through contact, you would still have deadened senses and bouts or irrational anger with those around you (mechanical penalty or not), and you would still have confusion when taking damage. Despite the fact that the 'damage' from them eating your brain is supposedly cured, you still have the effects of them eating your brain, even between the time period where you would take the damage again/suffer mechanical effects for them eating your brain (ie. between the frequency saves, you would still be infested).

Now, in relation to the discussion here, in the context of lack of sleep, there's little indication of mechanical penalties between the time you are rested and the time you get fatigued, which is why many people seem to think removing the fatigue (like removing the ability damage in your example) means you have removed the entire condition or cause of the singular condition.

Liberty's Edge

toastedamphibian wrote:

I meant Brain Worms, maybe it has another name. But yes, it cures ability damage. Ability damage is from things far worse for your mind than not sleeping.

Diego Rossi wrote:

The last one is about recovering Arcane spell is factually wrong.

Read the citation above: "To prepare his daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours." and "If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells."
Humanoid creatures need to sleep. LR don't remove the need to sleep, it remove fatigue.

You somehow seem to have missed the sentence directly between those two sentences. You know, the one I specifically referenced in the post that you were responding to. There is the one where it says they need 8 hours of sleep, followed directly by the one that says they don't have to spend their 8 hours of sleep actually sleeping, and then the one that gives a list of activities they can do instead of sleeping.

I suspect there is no way you could have missed either of these points unless you were actively trying to do so. Guess I'm done here. Your not arguing in good faith.

Quote:
The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time,

You accuse me of not arguing in good faith when you argue that not needing to sleep for every minute is the same of non needing to sleep?


Diego Rossi wrote:


Quote:
The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time,

You accuse me of not arguing in good faith when you argue that not needing to sleep for every minute is the same of non needing to sleep?

So if we go by that literally, he requires a minute of sleep then he's fine with 7 hrs and 59 min rest? I don't find that meaningfully different.

IMO, there is no indication of intent, much less proof, that you there are lingering effects from removing from fatigue from non-sleep or that there are any special requirement for removal. I don't see why you'd be on the lookout for a proviso or explicit instruction to 'follow the normal rules EXACTLY like you would with any other fatigue' in the FAQ: It seems nonsensical to look for 'not-exceptions'.

I have to say I'm starting to feel like Jurassic Pratt here: I'm seeing no evidence it works differently and it seems like you're debating on what 'should be the rules' instead of 'what 'are' the rules and at that point, you might as well make up your own rules you feel fit better.


Let's add it another point of view.

We have a cantrip that can deal with thrist.

We have a 3rd lvl spell that deals with the need of food and water.

We have a 5th lvl spell that can do the aforementioned and more.

A 2nd lvl spell 'trivializing' the need of sleep for the cleric seems fine. Isn't what magic do anyway?

To the OP, even if you solve this 'no need to sleep problem', which you won't, because there're even magic items that can do the same (almost), you still have to deal with that killing spree. The core problem relies in the player, an evil guy wanting to do big non subtle evil things with a strange behavior traveling along with a paladin is really asking for trouble. You should do a little table talk next time you met.

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