How do you balance spell casting in combat as a Gish?


Advice


So I'm planning on playing a Dragon Disciple in my next game, but more on the melee side of Dragon Disciple. I've planned the character from 1-20 and by the end I have 15 BAB and the ability to cast 7th level spells as a sorcerer. As a melee character who has little room for caster feats, poor save DCs, and only 15 Caster levels I have chosen spells based upon a lack of saving throw or that buff me Dragon Disciple.

While picking spells, always agonizing as a sorcerer, I had a realization that I had no idea how to play this Gish at higher levels. Sure, I can quicken up to 3rd level spells by 19...but in terms of action economy for normal spells I'm stumped. Early game it's easy: I have cantrips for utility, Mage armor for defense, and expeditious retreat for mobility. Mage armor can be precast, so my only spell decision is whether I need to speed up to charge some archers or case down a runner.

Later though, I'll have so many spells not only competing against each other for use but also Competing with simply smacking an opponent in the face a bunch. How do you balance buffing and bashing? Do you prebuff and then only cast 1 round of in combat buffs? Do you buff as necessary? If you only can spend 1 round buffing how do you decide between buffs? Etc.

Any help is appreciated


You'll look largely for long term buffs like heroism and try to have them up and then 1 buff round in combat if needed. Any more than the 1 round buff round and fights will likely be over before you're ready. And another thing as you level up getting an extend rod. Like at lv5 bull's str will last for 10 minutes if extended. Along with your many slots you can cast them and be okay wasting a few if you guess wrong.


Prebuff when possible. You might not know when a battle is going to break out, but you can guess. And if you guess wrong, it's probably no big deal, because as a melee attacker who doesn't cast much in combat, you should have plenty of spell slots to burn.

In-combat casting should generally only be used on turns when you can't full attack.


Another option is a reach tactics like the standard reach cleric. If your enemy is going to have to take an attack of opportunity to get to you, it doesn't hurt so much that you didn't spend your action attacking him.

Dark Archive

When it comes to buffing characters who aren't going full Support, I have what I like to call the Rule of One. I pick a handful of really good buff spells, and settle on one buff in the opening round. Then, it's off to my main job: attacking, blasting, debuffing, whatever the character is meant to do. This way I never get completely left behind by the party and I still have spare spells for utility or in-combat problem solving.

Have you considered a Draconic Bloodrager? Or a Magus with the Charisma archetype and the same bloodline? Or perhaps a Warpriest of a draconic god? These newer classes do a better job of smoothing out your action economy by letting you cast key spells as a swift (or free!) action or letting you mix spells into your attack actions.

Edit: It's a little off theme, but another fun way to solve the cast/attack issue is to split your character in two and play a Summoner.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Make sure you have spells to cover when weapons will not do it — a spell for swarms, something to help against regeneration, various movement spellls.

Rosc makes a very good point above, if you are doing more than one buff once combat begins it is probably a problem.


Other people gave great advice, but I thought I would draw you attention to this relatively new fighter archetype:

Dragonheir Scion

You wouldn't be a gish but it kind of sounds like your more interested in the "dragon disciple" part over the casting.

Otherwise I agree, if you are making a caster or a buffers who primary job is fighting, look for longterm buffs as stated and I follow the same rule Rosc does I only allow 1 round for buffing, anymore and the fight is over before you get to contribute.


Reach is great advice, thanks Dave. As for the rule of one, it becomes a question then of what I cast late game. I'll have a few combat spells, walls, mobility, and a few battlefield control spells like fog or rough terrain.

However, a lot of my spells are buffs. Greater false life, Greater Heroism, Form of the Dragon II, haste, mirror image, blink, and etc. How do I pick just one to cast, should I have less buffs and more situational spells even though I'm a sorcerer and have few spells known?

Also, my build is solid but thank you for asking after it. It's weird as hell and I love it (sorcerer 5/paladin 4/monk 1/dragon disciple 10 and not necessarily in that order). I have a double chained Kama I plan on using in melee, so reach could be a thing. However a lot of my damage comes from Dragon Style, Feral Combat Training, and natural attacks. Not making full attacks is a painful trade especially for buffs. Makes sense when I can't full attack though.

I was thinking I would just need mnemonic Vestaments and a scroll of time stop.


Mirror Image is good if your life is in danger from martial opponents (especially those with few but powerful attacks). But anything with minutes per level duration, you should aim to cast in advance.

Haste is probably the overall best first-round spell if you have other allies to boost and no-one else in the party is going to do it.


If you are taking the strike roll, you typically shouldn't be trying to do battlefield control. Ideally, that is someone else's job. Having the ability to do something in a pinch isn't bad, but it is something you should do when you can't do your main job for some reason.

Greater false life lasts a long time, so you shouldn't need to be casting it in combat. Same with greater heroism. Form of the Dragon is iffy about having it up ahead of time a min/level but II will give you reach so works good as a self buff while the enemies get to you.

Haste is of course a great spell. If you are the only one in your party that will be able to cast it (usually means your support character can't, since even if a controller technically can they have other jobs to do) that might need to be your go-to, even though it is more a support role spell.

Defensive spells like mirror image and blink would be questionable in my opinion. You would have to choose in a given combat whether it was more important to avoid or do damage, usually in my opinion good strikers need to always focus on the doing. If you can't compete in melee without a defensive spell up, you might need to rethink your build. I might take one or the other as a fall back for really dangerous opponents (like level drain attacks or something).

Mobility spells are always good to have. A few ranged damage attacks might not hurt either.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Greater Heroism has a duration of 1 min/level. Try to do it in anticipation of the battle. Easier to do that with Heroism with it’s longer duration. False life (either version) is a good buff since it lasts 1 hr/level. It is easy to do that when you are going into someplace dangerous.

Blink causes you to have a miss chance. I never liked it for that reason.

Look at the durations and what the spells give you. If your character is supposed to hit things with a weapon, you really can’t be spending more than about a round on buffing once Initiative is roll.


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Sounds like you can afford some situational spells on your list as well, some divinations like arcane eye or clairvoyance can help to properly time your buffs. Teleport, break enchantment, dispel magic, stone shape, etc.. Think of those extra spell slots as a big multitool.


Battlefield Control is the only option I have as a fallback when Striking won't work, my DCs will be low because my spells come late into the build and my Caster Level is low so Spell Resistance outstrips my ability to penetrate it. Plus level dependant variables are also lower than normal. Anything that requires a caster level check, save, or has big level-dependant variables ends up kind of sucking for me. Fireball? Don't get access to it until level 11 and its 6d6. Black Tentacles? CMD outstrips the rate at which I give the tentacles CMB. Suffocate? Everything will make its save.

That leaves spells that are always good, like Wall of X because they have no saving throw associated with them and their level modifiers don't matter. It also leaves me with buff spells, thus why I'm trying to figure out the buff spell action economy.

Looking at some of my spells (Thanks for the Extend Spell Tip, btw, it helps with a number of my spells), I do have a number of buff spells that are combat only of 1 round or 1 minute per level. However, it seems like they all specialize in doing different things. Some are better at one thing or the other, but they all work towards different goals. The question will just need to be moment to moment decision making about casting the right situational buff.

Dark Archive

As stated before, Breakfast Buffs are your friend. The most powerful tool in your arsenal (aside from the Glorious Big Six) will be lesser (and eventually normal) Metamagic Rods of Extend. Look at all the buffs you would like to cast. See the ones that last for 10 minutes per level? Extend those and you'll be good for most of the working day. Sorcerers have tons of spells so you'll be alright if you have to reapply them once. Those wonderful hour per level buffs just go without saying.

If you know your build, check with the party. Synergy is key. If you have at least one more fight-man in the party, then Haste is the most usefull buff from the day you get it until your final battle. If no one else will be able or willing to cast it? Boom, your buff problem is solved. Take longterm buffs, backup damage, and utility for the rest of them.

If Haste is covered, then take the most appealing buff from each spell level, then let it collect dust or retrain it when you level up.

Hot tip: Glitterdust ages wonderfully.


During the fight I would cast a combat buff spell before moving into melee like haste. Other than that there's not much point unless you need to cast in order to keep on hitting them(IE fly, see invisibility, etc) or if your weapon doesn't hurt very much. Many buff spells are also better defensive options than your martial side can do so if you need to turtle. There are also a fair number of immediate action spells available. Attacking should be your default activity. Treat casting as a secondary tactical option to use when default isn't working or doesn't fit your current needs

Grand Lodge

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I would also consider ring of spell knowledge. It will give you way more options for low level utility and buffs. This way you can more fully utilize your spell list.

I would get an offensive and defensive buff at each level then fill out the list with helpful stuff. See invisibility and glitterdust have been mentioned, fly, overland flight, monsterous physique for attack and senses, life bubble, magic circle, invis sphere, dispel, resist e, etc

Liberty's Edge

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Your job is to hit things in combat!

Hour per level buffs are your friend: mage armor, countless eyes, monstrous extremities, overland flight. 10 min/level buffs like heroism, stoneskin, magic circle vs evil, and see invis are pre-cast, probably extended, when walking into a dangerous situation. Invest in a wand of Heightened Awareness and cast it after every fight when travelling through a dungeon.

Boost your perception so you get a surprise round. That's your buffing round. I usually use it to cast a Monstrous Physique, but Haste or Tactical Acumen are great choices if no one else in your party has them covered.

I also tend to keep a few touch spells memorized, for when I have to reposition mid-fight. Cast, close with the enemy, and deliver the touch spell. A Chill Touch, Frigid Touch, or Calcific Touch make for a nice, strong 'Hello!' when you wouldn't be able to get a full attack in, anyway.

Aside from that, have a set of spells for emergency use. A spell or two to use against swarms, oozes, and things you don't want to touch or close with - Dragon's Breath is nicely diverse. Enervation is excellent for a Gish character. Dimension Door to escape, or get you and your melee in position to attack the big bad. Glitterdust against invis creatures, Daylight for overcoming darkness, and Communal Energy Resistance WILL save your party from a TPK. Liberating Command to save party members who get grappled. (A 1st level Page of Spell Knowledge is only 1k!) Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic depend on caster level, not stats. Maybe Life Bubble, True Sight, or Plane Shift if no dedicated caster has access.

Of course, as a sorcerer you'll have a limited spell list. You can cover a lot of those emergency spells with a Mnemonic Vest and a handy haversack full or scrolls.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

For a melee-focused sorcerer/dragon disciple "gish," my preferred progression is barbarian 2 (to pick up at least one rage power; Moment of Clarity is quite useful and Extra Rage Power can be used to pick up others)/sorcerer 4/dragon disciple 4 (to get +4 Str and +3 natural armor)/eldritch knight 10 (for full BAB and near full spell progression). You end up with +17 BAB and spells as a sorcerer 16 (8th-level spells).

The trait Magical Knack (Sorcerer) is pretty much mandatory. At barbarian 2/sorcerer 1, take Arcane Armor Training (which you qualify for with Magical Knack); it's usually more efficient to wear a mithral chain shirt (which can be improved a few times) than tie up one of your spells known. On reaching barbarian 2/sorcerer 4/dragon disciple 4/eldritch knight 4 (and gain 5th-level spells), retrain Arcane Armor Training to Quicken Spell.

One trick to keep in mind at higher levels is to cast antimagic shell, rage (Ex, so works in the shell), then charge and grapple an enemy spellcaster (who loses all buffs and can no longer cast while being grappled/remaining in the shell).

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