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What's the build summary? I'd be keen to understand how to get the best out of an Oracle.Pathfinder 2e in general struggles with these combat subclasses for casters, they all tend to just be bad options because they lack proficiency, their prime attribute doesn't affect their strikes, and there aren't many support feats for them. Plus the bonuses are easily obtained through other means.Speak for yourself. My battle Oracle slaps.
It sounds like I took a different direction than aobst. I went orc with hold scarred (Die Hard is nice because fast healing makes you impossible to keep down until you're dead) and focused my ancestry feats on defense.
Maxed strength and charisma, with other boosts going into con and wisdom. There's some awkwardness early on because you don't get enough strength to pull off full plate effectively until level 5. I wound up throwing on an armored skirt until then so I could still get bulwark. I went bastard sword, which let's me two hand for huge damage or one hand if I want to gandalf it up with a staff.
I had free archetype for dragon disciple, but you can get by without it. Just use Divine Access to pick up True Strike and Haste instead of Draconic Arcana. I also took Bespell Weapon for extra damage, and wound up getting both domain spells which both have seen use.
Haven't felt a need to go for the later battle mystery focus spells but Call to Arms is pretty good.
The main trick isn't really how you build, but how you play. You don't rush to the front lines. You blast enemies from afar and make them come to you, or use that time they are closing to buff yourself. I generally only make one strike a round but between Weapon Surge, d12s, True Strike, Bespell Weapon, and Curse Damage that one strike hurts. And haste is just super good on a build like this. Casting, moving, and striking in the same round feels awesome.
Basically you want to actually be using your spells and supplement with melee. If you're not bothering to use your spells in conjunction you shouldn't be playing a caster.
Basically, a Battle Oracle or War Priest's first swing is about as accurate as a fighter's second, except the casters have a bunch of damage enhancers they can stack on top of that when they do hit.
Secrets of Magic also added some great gish spells like Warding Aggression and Blink Charge.
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Basically, a battle oracle is only a striker for legal reasons. You mitigate your curse every time you make a strike, so it mostly doesn't matter that your terrible at hitting things. It's nice when it does connect though.This does not really read like a particularly ringing endorsement of spellcasters doing martial things.
TBT I do not expect that martials will be any good at caster things either ;-)
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It seems my point was misunderstood a bit.
Martial subclasses of casters are objectively poor at striking in comparison to martials, and fail to effectively bridge the gap between caster and martial in an effective and unique way, which is what they should be doing.
No. This is exactly what they should not be doing. Martials being good at hitting things is their core competency, the very thing you are not supposed to be able to poach with dedication feats.
And it works the other way around too. How many caster players bemoan the lack of item bonus to caster attack rolls. And yet, a martial, lagging behind in both proficiency and casting stat is somehow supposed to be stealing a 'real' caster's thunder? Hardly.
No, casters get to play at being a 2nd rate martial by picking up some 'tricks of the trade', a.k.a. feats, but they never get better at accuracy.
Same way as martials get to pick up a few 'tricks of the trade' from the casters, a.k.a. spells. But they will never be good enough with them to justify using them over their own core abilities.
Casters being able to usurp the non-casters' everything without impunity was one of the biggest failures of D&D 3.x. PF 2 goes long ways to avoid that, and it is a better game because of it.
There is a class that blends martial proficiency and magic, the Magus. And even a Magus is free to pick up archetype feats to get more magic or different martial utility.
But a class that is a caster first will always be a caster first. Same for martials.
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It seems my point was misunderstood a bit.
Martial subclasses of casters are objectively poor at striking in comparison to martials, and fail to effectively bridge the gap between caster and martial in an effective and unique way, which is what they should be doing.I'd go as far as to say these subclasses should go further to limit spellcasting, maybe trading 1 spell per level or legendary proficiency etc... to widen the gap between them and other casters.
That's what a magus and summoner should be doing. The subclasses are filling a different niche. They are casters first and foremost.
Most of the benefits of battle oracle are pretty easy to replicate, even as a full caster. They only ever get up to expert in armor, and take penalties anyways, so champion dedication is nearly as effective in defensive utility. The unique parts are the revelation spells and the fast healing. You could arguably make a more durable oracle out of a life or fire oracle (bonus HP or higher reflex saves with no save/AC penalties), while being just as good at striking
Except the feats you spend to catch up with the battle oracle are feats that the battle oracle can spend to increase their durability and striking power further. My battle oracle got to spend ancestry and general feats on things like Orc Superstition/Ferocity and Toughness instead of getting a decent weapon and heavy armor.
Nor will the other oracles be just as good as striking. Battle's domain spells are great for reaching the fray and hitting harder when you need to, and the curse just flat out gives you more damage.
Most of the Warpriest benefits are also defensive, with the only bonus that can't be replicated elsewhere being getting expert proficiency at level 7, which only temporarily shrinks the gap. Warpriests often need to spend a feat to get heavy armor anyways, which a cloistered cleric could also spend to get the same defense.
I'd disagree with "often." Sticking a boost in dex and sticking with medium works fine, and taking dex higher is great with a trident. Also... cloistered cleric has zero armor, so they need to spend at least two feats to get up heavy, with at least one being a class feat. And war priests actually have some great class feats to take instead-- Divine Weapon, the Emblazon Armament line, Channel Smite, Align Armament... You're giving up some tasty damage enhancers.
Cloistered clerics are better off cranking dex, taking ranged weapons and snagging those damage enhancers than trying to emulate war priests in melee.
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And it works the other way around too.
Which is also pretty lame. So many cool build concepts lost because of pearl clutching over niche protection. A shame.
That's what a magus and summoner should be doing. The subclasses are filling a different niche. They are casters first and foremost.
Summoner doesn't really fill that role (its not really supposed to though), magus kind does, but its a full martial proficiency-wise and there's still wiggle room between that and casters.
Except the feats you spend to catch up with the battle oracle are feats that the battle oracle can spend to increase their durability and striking power further. My battle oracle got to spend ancestry and general feats on things like Orc Superstition/Ferocity and Toughness instead of getting a decent weapon and heavy armor.Nor will the other oracles be just as good as striking. Battle's domain spells are great for reaching the fray and hitting harder when you need to, and the curse just flat out gives you more damage.
A max dex oracle has the same AC as a battle oracle with their moderate curse, with better saves unless the battle oracle dumps charisma. Heavy armor only offers a +1, and oracles have access to light armor. So in terms of defense battle oracle doesn't offer much over a regular oracle.
In terms of offense you do get a good boost to your weapon strike damage, but you'll probably still fall behind a casting oracle, who's roughly balanced with full martials in terms of damage. This is my issue here, you could just as easily have the same or better defenses and better offenses with similar commitment. Sure the battle oracle has a really cool narrative, but I'm not fond of how it backs up that narrative mechanically....
I'd disagree with "often." Sticking a boost in dex and sticking with medium works fine, and taking dex higher is great with a trident. Also... cloistered cleric has zero armor, so they need to spend at least two feats to get up heavy, with at least one being a class feat. And war priests actually have some great class feats to take instead--
A dex based character does far less melee damage than a strength based one. And the saves advantage is offset by bulwark. Using a bow on a Bespell Weapon caster works really well because you don't have to move as much, but a finesse melee caster without strength would do something like 1d6, 3.5 average damage at level 1 where the strength based battle oracle is doing 1d12+3+2, or 11.5 average damage. Three times the damage per hit is simply not a comparable performance.
The biggest advantage dex builds get is range, but casters can already cover that with spells.
Now, a strength based champion dedication has potential. But you're losing out on:
Level 1 AC worth a darn
2nd level class feat
Focus spells tailored to melee
Battle's Divine Access. I bet you can still get a lot goodies with digging but the battle mystery gets some gods with really great spells for melee.
Bonus damage from curse
Fast healing
Access to other archetypes (I don't really count this one against you, though, because Lay on Hands and Champion's Reaction are amazing pick ups to finish your requirements. But it does limit your options until then, especially without free archetype.)
None of which would be terrible to give up alone, but collectively you're sacrificing a fair bit to do what the subclass does naturally.
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And it works the other way around too.Which is also pretty lame. So many cool build concepts lost because of [strike]pearl clutching[/strike] hard lessons learned over niche protection. A shame.
Fixed that for you. :p
Seriously, if a concept, cool as it may be, requires other concepts to become obsolete, good riddance to them.
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I don't think we really lost concepts. You just need to realize not every class is equally viable for every concept. And if we are gonna have classes at all I think that's fine and even desirable. There's a sliding scale of gishes ranging from battle Oracles to magus to fighters who multiclass. You just need to decide how magic vs martial you want to be.
I also don't super see a need for something better normal casters and the magus. It wouldn't hurt, but when we are talking about the difference of +1 accuracy we are getting veeeeery narrow.
A dex based character does far less melee damage than a strength based one. And the saves advantage is offset by bulwark. Using a bow on a Bespell Weapon caster works really well because you don't have to move as much, but a finesse melee caster without strength would do something like 1d6, 3.5 average damage at level 1 where the strength based battle oracle is doing 1d12+3+2, or 11.5 average damage. Three times the damage per hit is simply not a comparable performance.The biggest advantage dex builds get is range, but casters can already cover that with spells.
Now, a strength based champion dedication has potential. But you're losing out on:
Level 1 AC worth a darn
2nd level class feat
Focus spells tailored to melee
Battle's Divine Access. I bet you can still get a lot goodies with digging but the battle mystery gets some gods with really great spells for melee.
Bonus damage from curse
Fast healing
Access to other archetypes (I don't really count this one against you, though, because Lay on Hands and Champion's Reaction are amazing pick ups to finish your requirements. But it does limit your options until then, especially without free archetype.)None of which would be terrible to give up alone, but collectively you're sacrificing a fair bit to do what the subclass does naturally.
When I'm talking about output I'm talking output period, not strike output. Sure, battle oracle can pump its strike damage up, and will have more damage with its strikes than other oracles, but it won't be as much as a caster oracle can do with their spells, and caster oracles have just as much utility, and pretty easy access to the same defenses.
Battle oracles and warpriests aren't competing with martials in terms of optimization, because of how hard it is to put value on the utility, but are instead competing with casters who offer the exact same amount of utlity and higher output. Thats the gap that they need to bridge somehow, how can we make these subclasses...
How do you figure? Battle Oracles get the same number of spell slots and proficiency as a "caster" Oracle. Both are capable of reaching max charisma and their armor stat. They are still casters. War Priest makes a meaningful sacrifice but I'd say that is more for offense than utility. Air Walk don't care about proficiency.
How do you figure? Battle Oracles get the same number of spell slots and proficiency as a "caster" Oracle. Both are capable of reaching max charisma and their armor stat. They are still casters. War Priest makes a meaningful sacrifice but I'd say that is more for offense than utility. Air Walk don't care about proficiency.
A battle oracle has no better AC than any other oracle at 5+, has worse AC if anything prevents them from striking (say, needing to move and cast a spell) and has fairly mediocre divine access targets (better than storm oracle at least). Realistically, all battle oracle gets is team initiative(good) +2 damage(descales quickly) and a little HoT(replicated with a single action heal of a lower spell level as needed).
I am vaguely sure that the various spells available to lore oracles under divine access plus the extra spell known blow away anything a battle oracle can gain access to. Others just have better passive abilities or negligible curses that don't kill their EHP.
Maybe cosmos? Physical resistance won't show up until stoneskin at level 7 I believe. And stoneskin won't be better until stoneskin 6 which is a pricy slot to spend. And eventually you need stoneskin 8 to be better which is even pricier.
Or life with its +2hp/level which stacks with toughness and can't be replicated. The penalty is half their level in lost healing which is a joke compared to how much Heal can recover. Just don't waste time with the focus spell if you're trying to fight in melee.
"But the martial weapon" you might say, but human unconventional weaponry is a 1st level ancestry feat that will let you grab any uncommon ancestry weapon of which there are plenty and have it scale with simple proficiency. Not to mention all the weapon based archetypes. Also don't forget that battle oracle must Strike or lose AC but others are free to use maneuvers (trip mostly) as well.
"But the bulwark" you might say, but bulwark is a second level class feat and your 4th and 6th level skill feats (if you even care about opening access to another archetype). Or champion archetype which will also open champion reaction which is something everyone in melee could benefit from having anyway. One is trivial, the other is something you probably want anyway. Dex oracle obviously doesn't care.
I don't get the hate on fast healing. It's not a lot of healing but it sure isn't replicated with a single action heal. It doesn't cost actions and brings you back into the fight automatically if you go down. Curse doesn't end when becoming unconscious. The whole hypotheticals of how you could give any other oracle the same proficiencies as battle is forgetting that those have costs that battle oracles don't need to pay. Battle oracles can take mauler or bastion instead of sentinel or champion that other mysteries would need to catch up to battle.
The problem is it doesn't do anything until you're hurt and then didn't heal enough to matter unless your plan is to ping pong down and up until death. Imagine you have a level 10 battle oracle. He heals 5 hp/turn. That's about the equivalent of a 1st level single action heal per turn for free. That small heal isn't going to help you if you start taking damage. Fortunately, by level 10 your 3rd level slots don't matter so much anymore. One of those is 13.5 healing on average. That's almost 3 turns worth of your healing in 1 action, all at once, probably right after getting hit. Do remember that if you didn't get hit turn 1, you probably aren't going to even reach that amount of healing before combat ends. On the other hand, cosmos oracle got hit twice and mitigated 14 damage right off the bat doing as much in 1 turn as you'll manage in 3. Life oracle at that point just has 20 more hp than you to begin with which is 4 turns of you healing
As for the cost of proficiencies, show me the 1st level ancestry feat and 2nd level class feats that compare to a better passive, better divine access targets and +1 AC (unpenalized heavy armor). I'm not all that convinced they exist.
The one thing that bugs me about the battle oracle is the greater revelation spell.
Right? In a vacuum, it’s action costs are are steep and in context of being a revelation spell, the Battle mystery can barely afford to cast it with how situational its major curse is. I don’t think it can compete with any of its starting focus spells in most situations either.
When I'm talking about output I'm talking output period, not strike output. Sure, battle oracle can pump its strike damage up, and will have more damage with its strikes than other oracles, but it won't be as much as a caster oracle can do with their spells, and caster oracles have just as much utility, and pretty easy access to the same defenses.
I glossed over that bold sentence before, and I just noticed it and need to back. There's no way in heck that is true. First off, spells have a really hard time competing with strikes for single target damage. AoE, they are obviously king, but it isn't like the divine spell list is amazing for blasting anyway. But the thing that is really important here is that there's no third action that increases spell damage to be better than spell+strike. A few mysteries do have some nice one action focus spells, but you can't spam them and they deal d4s. Speaking of d4s, you know what usually does worse damage than striking? Cantrips.
Battle Oracles are not worse casters. They are the same casters plus striking.
Because battle oracle is taking huge penalties if it doesn't play a striking (martial) playstyle, which taxes their spellcasting through action economy. You could play a battle oracle as a caster, but you'd basically be less durable than any other oracle at that point.
You know when durability usually matters? In melee. You know what a battle oracle can do if they are in melee? Spell+Strike. Or if they can't cast spells (out of slots, provoking AoO, whatever...) they can just strike. I've played the battle oracle from levels 3-7 so far and I am not sure I have ever been targeted in a round I didn't strike. Maybe once? Like, it can happen, but in practice it usually doesn't. The most dangerous time is before you act, but if you don't take front and center in the march order you're usually fine. When you boost the whole parties initiative, either you get up into melee and attack or one of your allies does, and that draws aggro. If are up close swinging the penalties are suppressed. If you hang back and cast then they usually don't matter. And if they do, turn your third action into a spiritual weapon swing. That thing has crazy range.
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Examples:
At level 5 fireball does 6d6(~21), electric arc does 3d4 + 4(~11), a rogue does ~ 4d6 +4(~18), a barbarian does ~2d12+8 (~21), and a striking battle oracle would do ~2d8 + 6 (~15)
Your assumptions are off here. First off, there's no reason for a battle oracle to limit themselves to a d8 unless they are leaning into their caster half with a staff, and you don't need to do that all the time. Either you use up the charge early in the day (in case of offensive spells), save it for once you've run out certain spell slots (True Strike), or save it for out of combat utility. You don't need a shield because you have the cantrip and tight action economy anyway.
Also, you can get bespell weapon for extra damage (maybe delaying it until 6th without free archetype because Divine Access is too good) or enhance it with spells like True Strike or Weapon Surge. Haste also lets you add more strikes in a round but not more spells.
But most importantly, you are comparing the one spell to one strike when it is actually one spell to the same spell+ a strike.
So the hasted battle oracle has a max damage output that is more like fireball (21)+ Weapon Surge+Super Strike 3d12+1d6+6 (29.) 50 average damage when firing on all cylinders. Without burning resources it is cantrips (11)+ unboosted strike (15.)
The single hit does significantly more damage in either scenario and does much much more damage when combined with a spell.
At level 12 fireball would do 12d6(~42), electric arc does 6d4+5(~20), a rogue would do 6d6+7(~28), a barbarian would do ~3d12+15(~34), and a battle oracle would do ~3d8+10(~24). A fire oracle with their major curse and incendiary aura deals 4d6 + 4d4 (~24) just by existing near an enemy.
Battle oracles aren't out-damaging blaster oracles vs single targets unless they're hitting multiple times, which is where the lower proficiency really starts to hurt them.
Also demoralize is a super strong option for that third action if you don't need to move or something.
Won't deny it, but you can only do it once per enemy and the battle oracle can do it too. I've found it a great third action when I want to move and not use resources.
Defense is always useful, smart enemies should prioritize fragile opponents when its convenient,
Good thing nothing makes the battle oracle look fragile-- they are wearing full plate and look like a champion at first glance.
Spell + strike is good, but if an enemy used an action to step away all of a sudden you're stuck deciding between striking to keep your defenses up or casting a spell.
Not if you've got haste up, bae-be. But if an enemy is strong enough to burn resources on, congrats, you just made them burn an action stepping back from you. If they are a minion and not worth the resources, just walk up and smash face, it will kill them quicker than a cantrip would. Plus, you aren't fighting a solo fight here. The enemy stepping away from you doesn't save them from your allies.
Other fun options include: Other options when you need the gap and strike include demoralize, weapon surge, or true strike. All of which can further enhance your damage.
Also... that curse isn't always on. At the start of any fight I asses whether or not it will be helpful for me to kick it in, and my first fight of the day doesn't always result in a "yes."
I learned something new, somatic components dont need a free hand and eschew replaces material components with somatic ones, which is why I used a d8.
Also your battle oracle's damage is across 3-4 actions with the assumption you don't need to move and actually outdamages the martials in the level 5 example and would essentially match the barbarian in the level 12 example (although the accuracy is an issue). That level 5 battle oracle probably won't have both haste and another level 3 blaster spell though, so its more like 4d6 spell (14) + super strike (29) (43 total) for a level 2 spell, a level 3 spell, a focus point, and ideal positioning at the start of their turn, or normal strike (15) + cantrip/second level spell (11-14) (26-29 total) if you need to move with haste active, and yeah thats more than a caster casting one spell, but they've got an action left to do something with and if they were so inclined they could do something like a crossbow strike for 2d6+0 (or a bow strike if they specced into it), which would even out the damage.
That level 3 spell pays off more than just the one round though. Casting haste on a caster is meh and can be good on a martial depending on the build, but it is amazing on a hybrid. Also you're still low balling the normal strike damage: 2d12+6 is 19 damage.
And mind you, "ideal positioning" here just means you're in the hot seat. The Battle Oracle can hold off on haste and just blast from afar the same as the Flame oracle can if the situation calls for it, but unlike the Flame Oracle it can stand and bang just fine if an enemy pounces on it. Ranged opponents are more challenging, but are comparitively rarer and deal less damage. A protracted range battle is also where fast healing starts to shine, and you can get a spiritual weapon going to use your third action or otherwise dip into your repertoire to get fancy.
Also, you mentioned the major curse aura damage, but don't forget that some if that is persistent which means the enemy gets to act again before it kicks in and gets double dinged on resistance, and hurts nearby allied and deals 1d6 to the flames Oracle. By comparison Battle hits for 3d12+6+1d6 (29 damage) and is healing hit points. without even using it's major curse (and gets weapon specialization next level).
The major curse is generally only there for garbage time when you can't or shouldn't use more spell slots, but 12 is actually a nice level to look because you've got the same accuracy as a barbarian but only like 2-7 points behind in damage depending on the instinct and are essentially getting renewed vigor for free every round. That gap will widen as you level up but the Oracle gets more spells to use instead (or in addition to if you just want to buff damage.)
You're looking at the class and seeing it glass half empty with the curse restriction action economy. But the total package actually gives you a lot of flexibility in how you engage and adapt. That's pretty much how all curses work. The penalities look rough on paper but they actually aren't if you approach it from the right playstyle and slide your curse based on what the situation calls for. Flame Oracle can't reliably target enemies past 30 feet, for example, which means they often have more pressure to be in the thick of things than the battle oracle.
My beef with battle oracle is that while it encourages striking, by inflicting a penalty for not striking, it doesn't go far enough in making it better than other oracles.
Your defenses are on par with other oracles at best. If you use only a single focus spell in a day you can have +1 AC. If you use any more than that you're arguably less durable because of the hit to your saves, you do have some control over it though. Meanwhile flame oracle gets boosted reflex saves and concealment, cosmos gets flat DR vs physical and life gets extra HP.
Your striking isn't any more accurate, sure you can get a +1 status bonus for "free" at 11+ but your casting takes a big hit. So the only offensive boost you're getting is +2 damage for -1 to AC and saves, and the freedom to pump str for strength damage, if you aren't using your curse you're barely above a normal oracle striking, but if you are using it you're less durable than a non battle oracle.
The tradeoffs just don't feel worth it imo, + 2/6 +str damage on strikes isn't worth the drawbacks to your defense and rigidity in your action economy. Better to just play another mystery and spend a few feats speccing into striking (ancestry for weapons maybe and a class feat or two for plate if you want str) You'll be more durable and hit nearly as well, and not need to worry about being crippled if you can't strike for a turn. Level 1 might be rough if you dump dex, but its usually the shortest level.
I think at this point we are just restating the same things, so we may need to agree to disagree here. I will say in practice I haven't run into these problems and they are easy to play around.
What I'll admit I'm concerned about is reach and AoOs... But that's tough on any caster, and at least the battle oracle can just go swing happy when they get cornered.
I do want to say I landed a 66 damage bastard sword crit last weekend, which ain't bad for a caster. And I've had several moments like that with the battle oracle-- more often than I've had the curse penalty bite me, for example.
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I do want to say I landed a 66 damage bastard sword crit last weekend, which ain't bad for a caster. And I've had several moments like that with the battle oracle-- more often than I've had the curse penalty bite me, for example.
I've seen this kind of return of experience with the Warpriest, too.
I don't know what it means precisely, but I'd be cautious before dismissing it as just "dumb luck".