Hello all,
Let's say that I hypothetically have a longsword and a claw attack. If I'm fifth level than I can have two attacks with the longsword, and one with the claw attack (at the appropriate -5 penalty).
Does the longsword have to go first? Could I instead attack with the claw and THEN swipe with the sword twice?
I'm considering Hammer the Gap for a natural attack/unarmed TWF build, so if the natural attacks come first, the feat would be REALLY good, but if not then the feat would be useless.
You get to choose which limb you attack with first. There is no rule that says you have to attack with one over the other first.
So if I have three natural attacks, it is completely fine to do all of them, and THEN the manufactured weapon attacks? Great!
Absolutely correct. However, your 3 natural attacks are all going to be considered to be secondary attacks and at -5 to hit.
Wouldn't the first attack be at full BAB?
Your first attack is at full BAB. But if it's a natural attack, you have to apply a -5 penalty to the roll in order to use a subsequent attack with a manufactured weapon.
So wouldn't that make both attacks at -5 if the manufactured weapon came after?
According to the rules for iteratives, I believe you have to make your BAB attacks first:
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
According to the rules for iteratives, I believe you have to make your BAB attacks first:
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
That applies to multiple attacks because of the high BAB. So if you're +6/+1 with manufactured weapons because of your BAB, you must take the +6 attack first. But that doesn't make any distinction between different attack forms that a PC has because of something other than having a high BAB - like a natural weapon attack form (such as claws, hooves, horns, etc). Those can be taken in any order as long as the correct attack bonus is applied.
And natural weapons, when used in conjunction with a manufactured weapon, are defined as being secondary attacks (hence the BAB-5). That doesn't mean they need to be taken later than any primary attacks.
If you can take them first, why are they called secondary attacks? CHECKMATE, ATHEISTS!
If you can take them first, why are they called secondary attacks? CHECKMATE, ATHEISTS!
Because the "primary" and "secondary" designations don't have anything to do with the order of attacks, but instead deal with the attack power.
Just like boxers will often lead with a jab, rather than a cross or a hook.
You're real good at sarcasm, son.
I do not intend to avoid any penalties through this, that's what multiattack is for. It's just that natural attacks have a high accuracy, and I use them first hammer the gap gives realistic damage. Combined with unarmed TWF...
I do not intend to avoid any penalties through this, that's what multiattack is for. It's just that natural attacks have a high accuracy, and I use them first hammer the gap gives realistic damage. Combined with unarmed TWF...
Why do your PC's natural attacks have a high accuracy compared to your unarmed attacks when they're saddled with a -5 penalty compared to the unarmed strike?
Couldn't find any specific rule, not even in the Bestiary books. But given that you are free to choose which hand you use first at TWF, I guess it's reasonable to assume that you can do the same with natural attacks.
Your first attack is at full BAB. But if it's a natural attack, you have to apply a -5 penalty to the roll in order to use a subsequent attack with a manufactured weapon.So wouldn't that make both attacks at -5 if the manufactured weapon came after?
If a player tries this, I would enforce the rule for iteratives to natural attacks as well.
Essentially by BAB in descending order -- which would make manufactured weapon attacks first.
Which would completely prevent the entire intent of the player in making hammer the gap useful.
So, proceed at your own risk.
Why do your PC's natural attacks have a high accuracy compared to your unarmed attacks when they're saddled with a -5 penalty compared to the unarmed strike?
Multi-attack reduces the penalty for secondary natural weapons to -2 vs -5.
So, higher "accuracy".
I just want to point out, that if you're 5th level you'll only get 1 attack with your longsword. You only have BAB 5 (at best) at 5th level. At BAB 6 you get +6/+1 giving you the second attack with manufactured weapons.
As well, when it comes to claws you can only use claw attacks on hands that are not occupied by a weapon attack within the same turn.
For a two-handed creature you could make a longsword attack at BAB 5 and one claw attack at BAB -5 (because using a weapon attack in the same turn automatically makes it a secondary attack).
Technically you don't need to do manufactured attacks or natural attacks first, you can choose. But if you plan to use weapon attacks in the same round you should go ahead an apply the penalty to attack rolls for secondary natural attacks, otherwise you're effectively cheating.
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You cannot choose to benefit from an ability that requires a penalty after you've started an action without a penalty. If you're a TWF build with BAB 6, you can make you're first attack at +6 (and follow through with your iterative), but then can no longer make your off-hand attack that round.
If you have a claw and a longsword, you can choose to make a single claw attack at full BAB with dmg at x1 str mod, but then you're unable to make a longsword attack. Or, you can choose to make a claw attack at -5 penalty (or -2 if you have multiattack) and only x0.5 str dmg mod, see how that goes, and then follow through with a longsword+iteratives at normal BAB and str mod. You can even interrupt interative attacks with a natural attack, iirc.
Also, due to handedness, even though adjusting a grip on a weapon is a free action, you cannot make a claw attack, then grip your weapon with that same arm you used to make the claw attack, as you are now using the same part of your body as the claw that made an attack. So no clawing at enemies before two-handing a longsword for extra power attack dmg.
I just want to point out, that if you're 5th level you'll only get 1 attack with your longsword. You only have BAB 5 (at best) at 5th level. At BAB 6 you get +6/+1 giving you the second attack with manufactured weapons.
As well, when it comes to claws you can only use claw attacks on hands that are not occupied by a weapon attack within the same turn.
For a two-handed creature you could make a longsword attack at BAB 5 and one claw attack at BAB -5 (because using a weapon attack in the same turn automatically makes it a secondary attack).
Technically you don't need to do manufactured attacks or natural attacks first, you can choose. But if you plan to use weapon attacks in the same round you should go ahead an apply the penalty to attack rolls for secondary natural attacks, otherwise you're effectively cheating.
I meant to write 6th level. My bad.
My plan to get around handedness is to have claws, the Half Orc bite attack, and unarmed strikes with TWF.
It's good to see there isn't really anyway I could get this wrong. There isn't much of an advantage to changing the order, but I still wanted to double check there wasn't a rule for it.
Unarmed strikes using limbs means you can't make claw attacks with those limbs either.
I should be able to do feet, knees, or elbows right?
Yes, if you are a monk. I'm not sure if you can do it without being a monk.
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I believe there's a reason it's called an "unarmed strike" rather than "fist". You certainly should be able to use feet, knees, elbows, headbutts, whatever makes sense at the time.
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Unarmed strikes using limbs means you can't make claw attacks with those limbs either.I should be able to do feet, knees, or elbows right?
I am almost sure that what you want to do has been shut out by the whole hand of effort thing.
Manufactured weapons or IUS plus natural attacks is a mess of overlapping but not identical rules and FAQs spread over all the books. The problem is in how the core rules are written: they are meant for humanoid people with 2 arms, 2 legs and one head. The rules in the Bestiary are meant for NPC monsters, so don't need to go into the detail.
With the introduction of races with multiple arms, natural attacks and so on, of archetypes that give natural attacks, alchemy discoveries and all the other options the ways to get natural attacks and mix them with manufactured attacks has increased but the rules have never been really cleared and smoothed out for ease of use.
If it is for a character in society use aspect table variation. For home playing, ask your GM for how he want to rule it.
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I believe in every example of a stat block, a creature with a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon has the block written with the manufactured first then the naturals.
Statblocks generally show the attack with the higher value first, but that don't mean that they should be done in that order (with the exception of iterative attacks).