Exotic Heritage -> Sylvan

[Lune]

So... this issue had been buried when it was declared that Sylvan wasn't a valid choice to take with Eldritch Heritage. But now that it is again, could someone take Exotic Heritage, Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan) and Boon Companion to gain a full animal companion?

[Java Man]

Eldritch heritage grants the first level bloodline power only. The sylvan bloodline animal companion replaces both the first level power and arcana. I would say this bloodline is still not valid, even with the exotic heritage feat.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

Just to nip this in the bud: How is it now valid?

[Gisher]

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Just to nip this in the bud: How is it now valid?

Ultimate Wilderness has the Exotic Heritage Feat which allows you to select Wildblooded Bloodlines with Eldritch Heritage.

[Isabelle Lee]

I'm of the opinion that it doesn't, but I suppose I should have been more clear in the text. (At least I caught Beast Totem in the Totemic Initiate line.)

In any case, I brought this to Mr. Seifter's attention the last time someone inquired... so even if it's valid, I wouldn't be surprised if there's an FAQ in the upcoming weeks to take care of it once and for all. ^_^

[PossibleCabbage]

Exotic Heritage->Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan)->Boon Companion is basically isomorphic to Nature Soul->Animal Ally->Boon Companion, save for the latter giving the same bonus to Survival that it does to Knowledge (nature) and not having a charisma prerequisite versus the latter allowing you to take more Eldritch Heritage feats.

So I don't think it would really be a problem if it did work. I'd certainly be inclined to let a player do this.

[Pounce]

Also, don't forget that Eldritch Heritage comes with a -2 character level for deciding how the powers scale, so the animal companion gained from a potential Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan) would have a total of -5 to its level - meaning that Boon Companion itself would not be able to pick up the entire slack until you hit Greater Eldritch Heritage - at level 17.

Hopefully it goes without saying that nobody will be worried about a "power" concern that someone is able to get a fully levelled animal companion at that level...

[Lune]

Isabelle:
Thank you for the post. :) So that sounds intention neutral but of the opinion that it shouldn't post creation?

Balance wise I'm with PossibleCabbage on this. It seems in line with other existing options. Either way, you know as well as I do the arguments made both for and against. I had always been of the opinion that the RAW pointed to it working whether that was the intention or not. The FAQratta killed that by killing all options of getting Wild Blooded bloodlines on non sorcerers. Now there is another way there needs to be a ruling on that.

You mentioned Beast Totem with the Totemic line of feats. It is actually specifically mentioned in the feat. I assume from your comment that you are just reiterating that Beast Totem line was intended with the Totemic line?

By the way, I don't know who worked on what and I see a lot of Shifter hate around the boards but I think it isn't as bad as people say. It is a full BAB, d10 HD, 2 good saves, 4 skill points class chassis with a wild shaping focus. This is for martials who want to wild shape. There is actually a lot of good material in that book to make them good at what they do (including the Totemic line of feats). I got some concepts rolling around in my head already.

[Mr. Bonkers]

I do not see much of a problem with this setup. The Nature Soul->Animal Ally->Boon Companion combination gives one an Animal Companion chosen from a select list. And the Exotic Heritage->Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan)->Boon Companion might give access to the entire Druid list, but even with Boon Companion you'll be one level behind of full level.
The Sylvan Bloodline gives an Animal Companion of your Sorcerer level-3, and Eldritch Heritage gives you the first level power equal to a sorcerer level of character level-2.

So without Boon Companion, a lvl 6 character with Exotic Heritage->Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan) has a sorcerer level of 4, and the animal companion will be counted at -3, so an animal companion of level 1. Boon Companion then elevates this with 4 levels, so the end result will be a lvl 6 character with a lvl 5 companion. It may be a flashier creature than one can obtain with the Nature Soul->Animal Ally feat-tree, but that level behind will be a serious downgrade at low/mid levels.

By the time that -1 level is no longer such a problem, players have reached a level where there are far worse things than another animal companion.

[Isabelle Lee]

Lune wrote:

Isabelle:

Thank you for the post. :) So that sounds intention neutral but of the opinion that it shouldn't post creation?

Balance wise I'm with PossibleCabbage on this. It seems in line with other existing options. Either way, you know as well as I do the arguments made both for and against. I had always been of the opinion that the RAW pointed to it working whether that was the intention or not. The FAQratta killed that by killing all options of getting Wild Blooded bloodlines on non sorcerers. Now there is another way there needs to be a ruling on that.

You mentioned Beast Totem with the Totemic line of feats. It is actually specifically mentioned in the feat. I assume from your comment that you are just reiterating that Beast Totem line was intended with the Totemic line?

I don't think it should work, but primarily because of the replacement issue others have mentioned; PossibleCabbage's comparison to Animal Ally is valid, and if you're allowing one, I see no harm in allowing the other. (I'm quite aware of the clarification on wildblooded bloodlines, of course; that's actually what inspired the feat in the first place.)

I mentioned Beast Totem simply as an example of something I remembered to address in the text of the appropriate feat; specifically, restricting pounce gained via Totemic Master to natural attacks only. (If it were up to me, that would be part of Greater Beast Totem itself. But here we are.) Had I reviewed the mutated bloodlines more thoroughly, I probably would have included a restriction/reminder about wildblooded bloodlines that replace other parts of the bloodline. In any case, Beast Totem is a fully valid option for Totemic Initiate. ^_^

[The Sideromancer]

Does exotic heritage waive the skill focus requirement for Eldritch heritage?

[Dragonborn3]

Sylvan: "This bloodline power counts as your bloodline arcana and also replaces laughing touch."

Exotic Heritage: "All other restrictions and requirements of Eldritch Heritage still apply."

Eldritch Heritage: "You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities."

Nope, still not a valid pick. Sylvan counts as an arcana, which Eldritch Heritage does not give you.

[PossibleCabbage]

The Sideromancer wrote:

Does exotic heritage waive the skill focus requirement for Eldritch heritage?

Exotic Heritage basically exists to be taken in lieu of skill focus to let you qualify for eldritch heritage with mutated bloodlines. The tradeoff being that it's +2/+4 instead of +3/+6 and you can't get it for free* by picking the right race options.

To be specific feat includes:

Quote:

This feat counts as Skill Focus with the chosen skill for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of the Eldritch Heritage feat

[Reksew_Trebla]

Dragonborn3 wrote:

Sylvan: "This bloodline power counts as your bloodline arcana and also replaces laughing touch."

Exotic Heritage: "All other restrictions and requirements of Eldritch Heritage still apply."

Eldritch Heritage: "You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities."

Nope, still not a valid pick. Sylvan counts as an arcana, which Eldritch Heritage does not give you.

You forgot the most important part:

Sylvan: "This bloodline power counts as your bloodline arcana and also replaces laughing touch."

It is a bloodline power at the same time as a bloodline arcana. Similar to how a hypothetical spell with the evil and fire descriptor is a valid choice for a metamagic feat enhancing fire spells, anything that gives you either the Sylvan Bloodline Arcana and/OR the Sylvan Bloodline Power gets you that animal companion.

[thelemonache]

I am on the no train. The feat specifically says gain first bloodline power, and Sylvan specifically says (almost as if intentional) that it is the arcana and also replaces first bloodline, meaning it isn't the first bloodline, it replaced it, similar to language that would say somethign like "this ability replaces your favored enemy" would prevent you from taking something with the prereq favored enemy.

[thelemonache]

Lune wrote:

Don't really want to get into a deep debate on this (there have already been several) but that is NOT the language it uses, thelemonache. It says it counts as both.

"This bloodline power counts as your bloodline arcana and also replaces laughing touch." Thats a direct quote. counts as arcana, replaces laughing touch.. It literally gets no level 1 bloodline as written.

[Lune]

That is listed under the heading of what again?

[PossibleCabbage]

I feel like "this bloodline power" implies that what follows is, indeed, a bloodline power and not some sort of hyrbid of a bloodline power and something else.

"X counts as a bloodline arcana and a bloodline power" means it should be affected by anything that refers to an arcana as well as anything that refers to a bloodline power.

[thelemonache]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I feel like "this bloodline power" implies that what follows is, indeed, a bloodline power and not some sort of hyrbid of a bloodline power and something else.

"X counts as a bloodline arcana and a bloodline power" means it should be affected by anything that refers to an arcana as well as anything that refers to a bloodline power.

I hear ya, I could see it both ways. :)

[Tom Sampson]

By RAW, it clearly works. Exotic Heritage lets you select a Wildblooded bloodline option. Sylvan is as such a valid Eldritch Heritage option. Eldritch Heritage then gives you the 1st-level bloodline power. Animal Companion is indeed the 1st-level bloodline power of the Sylvan bloodline and clearly refers to itself as a bloodline power. As such, it is granted by the Eldritch Heritage feat when combined with the Exotic Heritage prerequisite. There is no need to overcomplicate it.

The fact that it also counts as the bloodline arcana does not somehow undo the fact that it is a 1st-level bloodline power (neither does Eldritch Heritage or Exotic Heritage declare a restriction against obtaining bloodline powers that are also bloodline arcanas - it only says that you must select a 1st-level bloodline power, which this is). The fact that it counts as both merely means that it should be treated as both the arcana and the 1st-level bloodline power for the purposes of effects, which is to say that an effect that applies to either the bloodline arcana or the 1st-level bloodline power would apply to this as well. The fact that the Sylvan Wildblooded Sorcerer replaces both his arcana and 1st-level bloodline power for his Animal Companion has no bearing on the fact that the feat has different prerequisites and gives the bloodline power by its own mechanic. Neither is there a "prerequisite" mechanic built into bloodline powers. Don't invent rules that don't exist. It makes a convoluted mess out of the rules and invites a text-free rules debate since now your rules are inferred rules and not written rules in any book (which is also a surefire sign your rulings are no longer RAW - Rules As Written). At the end of the day, bloodline powers are just class features. And if you get another class's class features because a feat or archetype or magic item or whatever says you get it, then you simply get that class feature like your feat/archetype/item says, regardless of how the original class would've gotten it.

From a RAI perspective I would guess that it is also most likely meant to be allowed. I'm fairly certain the designer was fully aware of the Exotic Heritage + Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan) combination, which was also originally done in numerous playgroups before Pathfinder FAQratta limited Eldritch Heritage to non-wildblooded powers (in fact, it was probably the reason for the FAQratta), so the fact that our designer deliberately opens up wildblooded options through Exotic Heritage now and yet did not detail any restriction against the Sylvan wildblooded bloodline strongly suggests that the designer consciously intended for it to be a valid option.

From a balance perspective, it is worth noting that while you can get the Eldritch Heritage feat at level 3, you would not gain an animal companion until the 6th level (unless you get a Boon Companion feat before then, since you do already have the animal companion feature for the Boon Companion feat) because your animal companion only appears starting at effective Druid level 1. So in exchange for the full animal companion list, you lose an extra 2 effective druid levels for your animal companion over what a Nature Soul -> Animal Ally combination would've given you (and you only get a Knowledge (Nature) bonus whereas Nature Soul gives you the same bonus to both Knowledge (Nature) and Survival), and that's beyond the fact that Eldritch Heritage also needs 13 charisma and obviously spending Eldritch Heritage on the animal companion limits you from collecting a different Eldritch Heritage. So balance-wise, this certainly cannot be described as a "strictly better" option. There are definite trade-offs involved.

So, in brief, yes, you can use Exotic Heritage to get the Sylvan bloodline, but you'll get the animal companion at -2 sorcerer levels and then -3 druid levels for a -5 druid level penalty total, meaning you won't get the animal before level 6 (unless you get Boon Companion at level 5 or through feat retraining).