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The adventurer's find a lone Hobgoblin camping. As they stealthily approach unnoticed one rides instead on horse with lance tearing down the tent (missing the Hobgoblin amusingly enough). They have him surrounded looking at him closer they find out that the Evil aura the paladin saw was a venerable hobgoblin cleric of Abadar. The Paladin of Iomedae and the War Priest of Iomedae both stop there attacks at that moment.
The Dwarf Fighter wondering why they stopped attacking just because the Hobgoblin was a worshiper of 'friend of a god to their god' and paying the Hobgoblin when he reveal he was just camping and waiting to sell items from his tribe to a third party, but the person was late.
The Paladin and Warpriest pay for damages done to the Hobgoblin with a new tent after destroying his old one.
The dwarf however starts to argue and beg the Hobgoblin to attack him, even willing to pay him for such a task.
Hobgoblin: Will you give me the chance to spend the money?
Dwarf: No, I'll kill you and take it back.
Hobgoblin: That's a certainly a deal I wouldn't take, I'm old and frail in my 80th year, you are in your prime.
Dwarf: LIAR!! I'm 80 as well, so it's not so different! (and dwarf attacks and kills the low level Cleric as a surprise action)
[I tried to explain age differences out of character to the player, but he doesn't see how alternate aging works for other races and believes they're all the same 'age type' as a human.]
end scenario the Paladin & War Priest do nothing as the Dwarf is a party member and end up looting the travel chest the Hobgoblin had which
did end up having a few Iomedae magical items in it (Originally there to be sold to said characters as they don't have good chances in the campaign to rest in towns and cities)
When I brought up a change of Alignment everyone's response was that the Hobgoblin was an evil creature, the Dwarf's response was that Hobgoblin's always eat Babies so it was fine to kill the NPC.
What are your thoughts on this, and should I now curse the items since they they are unwilling to believe they did anything wrong?
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Okay, if he detected as evil, he was no priest of Abadar. Abadar clerics have an aura of Law alone. I wouldn't, because whether due to miscommunication or whatever, you said he was evil. Beyond that, the tenants of Torag, god of dwarves, state it is a sin to show mercy to an enemy of your people, so not really wrong on that front.
Lawful Evil, one step away from the Lawful Neutral Alignment of Abadar. He was evil because he would morally do anything to make money, like selling weapons to both sides of wars. the Paladin know's he's evil, but was friendly, open and willing to offer spells if paid.
The priest pinged evil, thus any good character could kill him. Under some GMs the paladin MUST kill the hobgoblin or break their code. Under some other GMs, the paladin falls either way because you said their gods were friends, but letting an evil priest run free is not good or honorable.
If he was evil, the paladin would have still detected it. It's just that, if law was also detected, that would have been the stronger 'feeling'. As an evil creature, they would be expected to attack. As a non-combative creature, they should be hesitant. If he wasn't doing anything wrong and they had no proof that he did anything wrong, killing him would be a bad thing. Being evil, itself, isn't what causes a problem. ACTING on the evil is what should bring the good guys down on him. Otherwise, you get into killing people just for the thoughts they have whether they act on them or not. Now, as Val'bryn2 said, the dwarf should feel fine killing the hobgoblin. The typical dwarf Hates all goblinoids. The others may feel uneasy about it, but it was an evil creature who would probably do evil and was probably going to sell stuff to another evil person. Since there are a lot of 'probablies', I would be lenient. Maybe have the paladin and cleric have a 'feeling' that their god disapproves, at the most. Changing alignments, though... Unless the dwarf has been acting outside his alignment consistently, I wouldn't do it.
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Aura (Ex)
A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity’s alignment (see detect evil for details).
His alignment doesn't matter, only his god's.
If he also had an evil aura, then only because of HD, not because he was a cleric.
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The priest pinged evil, thus any good character could kill him. Under some GMs the paladin MUST kill the hobgoblin or break their code. Under some other GMs, the paladin falls either way because you said their gods were friends, but letting an evil priest run free is not good or honorable.
Thus the problems. Scenario was difficult with many answers, not sure myself as the players brought up that monsters should stay monsters.
The paladin & War Priest didn't ask in character, but they believed the Hobgoblin was redeeming itself as a Cleric of Abadar, the Dwarf just saw lots of Experience out of character and was more than a little annoyed the Venerable Cleric was only a CR 1/3
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Murdering unarmed and unresisting foes 'because they're Evil' is pretty clearly an Evil act in most circumstances (certainly if you have no proof they've ever committed a crime warranting such punishment).
Doing it 'because they're a hobgoblin' is even worse.
So...yeah, that's Evil. Whether it's enough to drop Alignment a step on its own is another question entirely (though I'd be inclined to say yes).
Okay, if he detected as evil, he was no priest of Abadar. Abadar clerics have an aura of Law alone. I wouldn't, because whether due to miscommunication or whatever, you said he was evil. Beyond that, the tenants of Torag, god of dwarves, state it is a sin to show mercy to an enemy of your people, so not really wrong on that front.
Actually, that's not quite what Torag's tenets say. Also, and more importantly, Hobgoblins are not historical enemies of the Dwarven people, that's Orcs.
The priest pinged evil, thus any good character could kill him.
Nowhere in any Pathfinder book is this said or even implied. Indeed, it's pretty clearly and directly contradicted several places.
Under some GMs the paladin MUST kill the hobgoblin or break their code. Under some other GMs, the paladin falls either way because you said their gods were friends, but letting an evil priest run free is not good or honorable.
Those GMs are pretty obviously in the wrong. Also, in the second case, clearly an a@~#@!*.
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If he was evil, the paladin would have still detected it. It's just that, if law was also detected, that would have been the stronger 'feeling'. As an evil creature, they would be expected to attack. As a non-combative creature, they should be hesitant. If he wasn't doing anything wrong and they had no proof that he did anything wrong, killing him would be a bad thing. Being evil, itself, isn't what causes a problem. ACTING on the evil is what should bring the good guys down on him. Otherwise, you get into killing people just for the thoughts they have whether they act on them or not. Now, as Val'bryn2 said, the dwarf should feel fine killing the hobgoblin. The typical dwarf Hates all goblinoids. The others may feel uneasy about it, but it was an evil creature who would probably do evil and was probably going to sell stuff to another evil person. Since there are a lot of 'probablies', I would be lenient. Maybe have the paladin and cleric have a 'feeling' that their god disapproves, at the most. Changing alignments, though... Unless the dwarf has been acting outside his alignment consistently, I wouldn't do it.
Which I'm fine with, more concerned that the Paladin & War Priest just decided to keep the items they found that where being waited on to be sold than finding out whom was buying Iomedae magical items.
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See a thousand other discussions on here about alignment. The D&D/PF alignment rules are at best a mill-stone and in many regards cannot have any blanket application. It almost always needs house-ruling according to the attitudes of your gaming group and the nature of your campaign.
yeah seeing that, so maybe I should change my question too, should I curse the items they stole from the merchant (Well shared in taking since the dwarf was the one technically stealing)
Clerics wrote:
Aura (Ex)
A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity’s alignment (see detect evil for details).His alignment doesn't matter, only his god's.
If he also had an evil aura, then only because of HD, not because he was a cleric.
They have a powerful aura corresponding to their deity's. That doesn't nullify the other part of their alignment. It doesn't say they only detect as that alignment. It just says it stands out as powerful. Otherwise, clerics are invisible to most detection spells as they would only detect as the one aspect of their deity's alignment.
I wouldn't curse the items, but I would have the one who was supposed to buy them come looking for the items they were supposed to purchase. If it was a powerful cleric of Iomedae, they've got some 'splainin to do... why didn't they bring them to a temple of Iomedae? If it's a bad guy... then they get hunted and maybe cause the deaths of innocents as the bad guys try to find them.
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No single action, no matter how heinous, results in an alignment shift. It takes a consistent, repeated change of behavior over a significant period of time.
If the items weren't cursed before, and there's no in-game reason to curse them, don't curse them as a punishment to the player.
What you need to do is take this player aside and inform him of exactly what his character would know about the various subjects at hand (the age differences, whether or not hobgoblins eat babies in your world, etc).
If you use active/meddling deities in your world, as I read Iomedae's profile, they should definitely get a warning for sitting back and letting the dwarf commit murder, PC or no.
On a tangential note ... are your players like fourteen?
The priest pinged evil, thus any good character could kill him.
While technically true, there's no cause and effect between those two statements. Punishment fitting the crime and all that jazz.
They have a powerful aura corresponding to their deity's. That doesn't nullify the other part of their alignment. It doesn't say they only detect as that alignment. It just says it stands out as powerful. Otherwise, clerics are invisible to most detection spells as they would only detect as the one aspect of their deity's alignment.
Look at the second sentence I wrote. "If he also had an evil aura, then only because of HD, not because he was a cleric."
He'd need to be 4 HD strong before even having a faint evil aura. In that case, he probably wouldn't have been CR 1/3 (as was mentioned in the post after mine).| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Any time a see a thread on alignment I feel the need make the suggestion that GMs and players should consider dropping it. The whole 'I use Detect Evil on the thing and then kill it regardless of it's actions' just further reinforces my view that alignment is something best done away with.
Now getting rid of the alignment system is easy if you don't have any players who use alignment based skills and abilities, if you have a paladin it's a bit more difficult. Personally I would base the judgement of 'good' or 'evil' on the gods, religions or philosophies of the characters.
A possible idea for the Paladin would be to have their Smite Evil ability affect enemies that their god would be opposed to. Detect Evil could be replaced with a 'divine guidance' ability which helps the paladin determine if their god will lend them power to smite a foe. The strength and clarity of this 'guidance' could vary depending on what the creature is, what it's actions/intentions are and the paladin's level. To sweeten the deal, particularly if I was making this change retroactively, I'd give the paladin a bonus to Sense Motive checks against any creature the 'guidance ' is giving them a bad vibe about.
Basically they murdered a guy because a spell said he gave off an evil vibe? Is the party aware that there are spells, items etc. that can cause someone to detect as an alignment as something other than their own?
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You need to have a discussion with your players about what kind of game you are running and what kind they want to play?
A- if it's evil and pings as evil we can kill it. (very black and white)
B- just because something detects as evil doesn't mean it is ok to kill it.(more shades of grey)
It sounds like you want B and at least the dwarf player wants A.
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No single action, no matter how heinous, results in an alignment shift. It takes a consistent, repeated change of behavior over a significant period of time.
If the items weren't cursed before, and there's no in-game reason to curse them, don't curse them as a punishment to the player.
What you need to do is take this player aside and inform him of exactly what his character would know about the various subjects at hand (the age differences, whether or not hobgoblins eat babies in your world, etc).
If you use active/meddling deities in your world, as I read Iomedae's profile, they should definitely get a warning for sitting back and letting the dwarf commit murder, PC or no.
On a tangential note ... are your players like fourteen?
Paladin is 46 War Priest is 43 (brothers)
Dwarf says he's in his 80's (not sure sometimes)
I'm early 40's
You need to have a discussion with your players about what kind of game you are running and what kind they want to play?
A- if it's evil and pings as evil we can kill it. (very black and white)
B- just because something detects as evil doesn't mean it is ok to kill it.(more shades of grey)It sounds like you want B and at least the dwarf player wants A.
the Dwarf player is fairly new to the group, and as far as I can tell has a very black and white world view, but it seems to be subective as well since he was told the Paladin player's daughter is a PC built Goblinoid and hasn't delt with it in a similar matter. He might be of the school if it's a Monster the DM controls then it's okay to kill it.
I've tried talking to him on the subject, but he get's very upset when I bring up Alignment's as not a strict guideline of evil, good characters can be jerks, but evil characters to him can't do something kind, sort of the evil means Antisocial, no friends and no desire to do anything except do evil.
The adventurer's find a lone Hobgoblin camping. As they stealthily approach unnoticed one rides instead on horse with lance tearing down the tent (missing the Hobgoblin amusingly enough). They have him surrounded looking at him closer they find out that the Evil aura the paladin saw was a venerable hobgoblin cleric of Abadar. The Paladin of Iomedae and the War Priest of Iomedae both stop there attacks at that moment.
The Dwarf Fighter wondering why they stopped attacking just because the Hobgoblin was a worshiper of 'friend of a god to their god' and paying the Hobgoblin when he reveal he was just camping and waiting to sell items from his tribe to a third party, but the person was late.
The Paladin and Warpriest pay for damages done to the Hobgoblin with a new tent after destroying his old one.
The dwarf however starts to argue and beg the Hobgoblin to attack him, even willing to pay him for such a task.
Hobgoblin: Will you give me the chance to spend the money?
Dwarf: No, I'll kill you and take it back.
Hobgoblin: That's a certainly a deal I wouldn't take, I'm old and frail in my 80th year, you are in your prime.
Dwarf: LIAR!! I'm 80 as well, so it's not so different! (and dwarf attacks and kills the low level Cleric as a surprise action)
[I tried to explain age differences out of character to the player, but he doesn't see how alternate aging works for other races and believes they're all the same 'age type' as a human.]
end scenario the Paladin & War Priest do nothing as the Dwarf is a party member and end up looting the travel chest the Hobgoblin had which
did end up having a few Iomedae magical items in it (Originally there to be sold to said characters as they don't have good chances in the campaign to rest in towns and cities)When I brought up a change of Alignment everyone's response was that the Hobgoblin was an evil creature, the Dwarf's response was that Hobgoblin's always eat Babies so it was fine to kill the NPC.
What are your thoughts on this, and should I...
There is no right or wrong answer based on this information. In some games being evil is enough to grant you a death sentence. In other games you can be evil without actually having committed a crime, and nobody should harm you until you attempt to harm someone else.
As for the player not understanding age differences you may have to explain to him that different races mature at different rates, and an 80 year old dwarf is rather young, while a 20 year old dwarf is not even an adult. If he thinks its ok for a 20 year old human(or hobgoblin) to fight the equivalent of a child then you have other issues.
As for hobgoblins always doing <insert bad thing> many GM's have a very black and white view of what certain races are and what they do. Some GM's run them as more varied. If your goblins, kobolds, and so on actually have character and dont fit the stereotype they might have at other tables, then you should explain that up front. I had to do that when I ran a campaign in Eberron because the goblins can actually be productive members of society, and they don't just go around causing trouble like they would in Forgotten Realms.
This seems like a misunderstanding of how things work at your game. I would explain this away from the table so he understands how you do things.
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Michael, you mentioned you've already tried talking to the player in question... but I think it might be worth doing it again as a group exercise. Like, sitting down with the whole table and talking out what all of you (as in you as a GM and they as players) expect in regards to Alignment, when a monster is an acceptable target, and so on.
This way, it's a group discussion where everyone gets their expectations out in the air. Based on the context you've given, I don't think bringing the character down a Moral step in Alignment will do any good; the player appears to legitimately not understand what's expected of their Good-aligned character in your games. They might even view it as an arbitrary punishment and get very angry with you.
I'm not specifically taking his side, mind you. Just pointing out that there appear to be some serious differences in 'world concept' here and they need to be reconciled before play goes forward. If it turns out the player cannot bring their concepts in line with the rest of the group, maybe they need to part ways. Or maybe a discussion can bring them onboard and things go much more smoothly from here on.
I would definitely talk this through and get expectations well defined as a group. That's a 'almost certainly has to happen' thing. What's optional would be the possibility of rewinding the story to just before this stuff happened so the player has an opportunity to put the new ideas into practice.
There is also the question of whether simply having evil thoughts - but not actions - is sufficient to qualify as Evil aligned. That's another topic entirely, though.
EDIT: Also, same goes for discussing Age. Player doesn't seem to grasp that different races age at different rates. You could perhaps use animals like dogs and cats as compared to humans as a real world comparison and note, "Same deal here, even among humanoids. Dwarves and elves live an unusually long time compared to most other races."
EDIT 2: Just be careful in the tone and pacing of this discussion. You don't want it to come across as a gang-up dogpile on the player in question. Be ready to clarify the intent, and stress that you still want him around if he seems defensive.
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People are gonna be eager to beat the "I hate alignment sytems" drum here, but alignment wasn't the problem.
OP has a PC who cant take a subtle plot hook and needs to trot out the clue by four for his games.
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The fighter is obviously Evil if that's normal behaviour for them.
The warpriest is fine, they couldn't have stopped the fighter and the code of Iomedae talks more about protecting your allies than punishing evil. The Paladin code does, however, require them to punish those who harm the innocent.
What might be a good way of handling this is having law enforcement, good adventurers, or maybe just a friend or family member of the hobgoblin try to hunt down his murderer through a spell like Blood Biography or Red Hand of the Killer. Have consequences to this beyond getting stuff without having to pay for it or the dwarf's just going to keep murderhoboing.
Personally I'd mark it down as an "Evil" act myself depending on how flexible Hobgoblins are in the setting, and even then the PC just basically murdered a retiree.
Now would it instantly cause an alignment shift? No, but still count as a Evil or Ill act. The Paladin and Warpriest would be getting pokes from someone higher up on the food chain about it, and the idea of a family/friend trying to find out what happened is also a great plot hook(Though be aware, doing so might put more hobgoblin heads on this Dwarf's kill wall).
Also more than likely wouldn't instantly go for curses on the magic items. Make the items weaker when put on by a point, or maybe instill a feeling of burden on their backs(Nothing gameplay but make sure to play it up as they handle the item). Possible ways to fix/lift this would provide their own plot hooks and hopefully instill a sense of "Maybe we Goofed up?" without resorting to the bigger guns.
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Or take on a tangential approach. Especially if they keep the items.
There was someone who was going to buy the Iomedian items. Presumably they have some reason to do so. Now they won't have the items to protect them/their village/whatever.
What you could do is let the characters see the indirect consequences of their actions. They come across a village burned to the ground. Maybe the warpriest has a vision he sees the village attacked and a hero (who he recognises as now dead, as maybe he buried him) using one or more of the items they stole from the hobgoblin to defend it.
Then let them decide if they feel they can keep them.
The gods presumably take an active interest in the actions (and inaction) of their followers (especially priests and paladins...).
I think you should speak with the dwarf player before it escalates into a big problem. And not an alignment problem.
As I understand, your group had decided to take a course of action (sparing the hobgoblins) and the dwarf player, with total and absolute disrespect for his friends, decided to boycott them. In my experience, that kind of players end up breaking groups. No one likes to take a decission and then watch as other players completely nullify it.
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the idea of a family/friend trying to find out what happened is also a great plot hook(Though be aware, doing so might put more hobgoblin heads on this Dwarf's kill wall).nothing says the friends and family have to be other hobgoblins, there could be an aasimar(one of the pinnacles of good creatures according to paizo)
True but really that was left there for the required line.
Hobgoblin Fencer appears. "Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to die."
To clarify something that was dealt with already (since 'detect sarcasm' is unreliable on the internet):
Hatred: Dwarves gain a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against humanoid creatures of the orc and goblinoid subtypes because of their special training against these hated foes.
I feel like the dwarf was role-played pretty realistically (assuming he has low Int). Dwarves generally hate hobgoblins, because:
Hobgoblins generally need little reason to declare war, but more often than not that reason is to capture new slaves - life as a slave in a hobgoblin lair is brutal and short, and new slaves are always needed to replace those who fall or are eaten.
If a GM presents his players with a creature from an almost-always-evil race, at least one PC is probably going to attack unless you quickly give an indication that this particular creature is not one of the evil ones. Worshipping Abadar but still radiating evil strongly indicates a priest following a cruel and corrupted version of this religion. The fact that the Hobgoblin was old doesn't make him harmless; venerable evil clerics get Wisdom bonuses that make them even more dangerous.
The rest of the players let the dwarf get away with it; that makes sense too, because the alternative is to turn on a member of your own party, and that's likely to end the campaign very quickly.
The 'pings evil but worshiping Abadar' could indicate something else ... he's done terrible things, but he only recently embraced Abadar and is in the process of redemption, trying to make himself a better person before he dies. Just like alignment 'drops' slowly, it also 'rises' slowly.
Letting the dwarf get away with it doesn't make sense at all, unless that's actually what your character would do. Roleplaying can, does, and sometimes should, result in interparty friction. The other two PCs could have simply grappled him and let the hobgoblin run away, for example, and then later had a deep bit of RP about the character's motivations, personal codes, and so forth and so on.
I'm also of the school that says killing someone who isn't defending themselves, whether it's because they can't (out cold, tied up) or won't (surrendering or simply choosing not to fight) is outright murder. I had overlooked the fact that one of the PCs was a Paladin; IMHO, he should have fallen instantly for permitting it.
I'm curious how old the dwarf's player is (not the character, the player). This kind of 'it's not a PC race, kill at will' mindset makes me think he's 13 or 14.
There's probably a couple Of things you could (and probably should) do here. Some in-game and some out-of-game, though most have already been mentioned by others.
Out-of-game, you should probably have a talk with the group about Alignment, the role of normally hostile humanoids in your game and how to, in the future, better handle situations and actions such as those that happened here as smoothly as possible. See if it isn't possible to put everyone's expectation in line, so everyone is roughly on the same page if another situation like this crops up.
In-game, probably wouldn't make this an alignment issue. As others have pointed out, the dwarf haven't made a habit of murdering random priests yet, so there might be hope for him yet. If he hasn't show a consistent
Evil streak in-game so far, a single misstep shouldn't be enough to tip his alignment.
As for the whole "Rrragh I'm a dwarf with the goblinoid hating trait, there for I can attack them on sight", I personally find it a rather poor excuse. Hatred can be played up in so many other ways then hammer/axe/pick to face...
As for what to do. Well if no one else was around to witness the whole affair, there shouldn't really be any consequences. They have gotten away with murder, so any consequences should come from the players themselves. Maybe the warpriest and paladin will suffered from bouts of bad conscience (and really in my opinion they should)...maybe even the dwarf will (less likely, but great if he did). They should get the items fair and square (and covered in blood) to use as they see fit.
Now if later someone were to learn about what had happened in that campsite, a few different things could happen.
For example:
As others have mentioned, angry family members/friends could come looking for blood.
Or:
If the church of Adabar learned of it, they could deny services to the party (or crank up the prices fivefold if it of vital importance to the community) until proper restitution was made for the "murder-theft-hoboing".
The 'pings evil but worshiping Abadar' could indicate something else ... he's done terrible things, but he only recently embraced Abadar and is in the process of redemption, trying to make himself a better person before he dies. Just like alignment 'drops' slowly, it also 'rises' slowly.
Letting the dwarf get away with it doesn't make sense at all, unless that's actually what your character would do. Roleplaying can, does, and sometimes should, result in interparty friction. The other two PCs could have simply grappled him and let the hobgoblin run away, for example, and then later had a deep bit of RP about the character's motivations, personal codes, and so forth and so on.
I'm also of the school that says killing someone who isn't defending themselves, whether it's because they can't (out cold, tied up) or won't (surrendering or simply choosing not to fight) is outright murder. I had overlooked the fact that one of the PCs was a Paladin; IMHO, he should have fallen instantly for permitting it.
I'm curious how old the dwarf's player is (not the character, the player). This kind of 'it's not a PC race, kill at will' mindset makes me think he's 13 or 14.
I think there's some misreading going on here. I don't see anything wrong, necessarily, with the dwarf being irritated that the other PCs are letting the hobgoblin off the hook for worshiping a friend of a friend deity. Seems appropriately dwarven to me and not necessarily a teenage mindset.
Nor do I think this is a case of the paladin PC 'letting' the dwarf kill the hobgoblin. The dwarf attacked the hobgoblin somewhat treacherously as a surprise during parley. That said, the paladin should have something to say about the dwarf's actions and failure to do so should mean some kind of sanction - not necessarily a fall. Restitution of the hobgoblin's goods to his church would probably be a good first step.
As a GM, I wouldn't punish the dwarf at all or shift his alignment unless this was an established pattern of behavior. If you ain't a paladin, you have a lot more flexibility in your behavior.
As has been mentioned briefly before, the cleric should not have registered as Evil unless he has an Evil Aura (i.e. worships an Evil God) or has more than 4HD. It's a common error to assume that Detect Evil detects any creature with an Evil alignment; this isn't so.
However, given that Hobgoblins are enemies of Dwarves and Torag (Toerag?) pretty much demands their deaths, this was not an Evil act if he is a follower of Torag; it was a religious duty. Can't say I'm much of a fan of Torag and would advocate his alignment be changed to Lawful Neutral but I can't fault that players decision in those circumstances. He even tried to get the Hobgoblin to draw weapons on him first to give him more legitimacy (not that he needed it). The fact that his compatriots obviously disapproved has never stopped a self-respecting dwarf; neither has reason, logic or argument.
I cannot tell you whether this was a player playing in character or a player just being obnoxious. It may even have been a player choosing a character so he can be obnoxious, but the only one who can decide that is you. Is this typical of that player? the fact that he was disappointed about it being only cr 1/3 suggests he is only interested in collecting the rewards (xp and loot), but it could be that he was disappointed about the lack of challenge.
As a fighter, he is less motivated by Divine Edicts and more by simple adages. If that is the case, he is probably operating under the fighters adage:
If it moves, hit it.
If it doesn't move, hit it and see if it moves.
I agree with the notion that one act generally shouldn't shift alignment but there is a point where that simply isn't true. A fairly good character that then decides to genocide the entire village for no reason does drop to evil.
I would say this infraction is severe enough to drop from good to neutral but not from neutral to evil. He's killing an unarmed old man but hes doing it because it was "the right thing to do". There are different shades of evil and if it wasn't clear that there is a scale from profit mongers to baby eaters I can see the confusion, particularly for a new player. The age thing does need to be addressed directly as that shows a very large gap between character and player understanding of your world
I would make sure however to have a discussion at the table to make sure everyone is on the same table understands the general idea of what you are using for your alignment scale. Racism like "Hobgoblins always eat babies" should also be part of the conversation as well as does evil = stab
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Not only was killing the hobgoblin not evil, if they didn't kill him (and left him alone), that would have been an evil act.
Also the only sensible RAW way to run alignment is that the player picks their alignment and decides what it means. Any action can be described by any alignment.
an unarmed old man
An unarmed old evil cleric. Hardly defenceless. He could probably wipe out a village just by channelling negative energy at them.
Not only was killing the hobgoblin not evil, if they didn't kill him (and left him alone), that would have been an evil act.
No it wouldn't. That's a ridiculous moral standard - it's tantamount to saying that everyone's evil because they don't wipe evil out of existence.
No it wouldn't. That's a ridiculous moral standard - it's tantamount to saying that everyone's evil because they don't wipe evil out of existence.Not only was killing the hobgoblin not evil, if they didn't kill him (and left him alone), that would have been an evil act.
You can redeem him, but leaving the guy by himself to further evil when you can stop it is evil.
You can redeem him, but leaving the guy by himself to further evil when you can stop it is evil.No, it would be Neutral. You are not responsible for the choices of others.
IDK about that, Spiderman seemed pretty torn up about Uncle Ben.
IDK about that, Spiderman seemed pretty torn up about Uncle Ben.You can redeem him, but leaving the guy by himself to further evil when you can stop it is evil.No, it would be Neutral. You are not responsible for the choices of others.
That's comic book melodrama, for you. If the guy who killed Uncle Ben was just walking down the street whistling a jaunty tune when Peter encountered him, would he feel as broken up or responsible if the guy ended up killing Ben? I think not. It wouldn't make any sense to do so. The criminal would have been just as criminal in character, but without actively engaging in anything nefarious, so there's no reason to believe he's a problem.
The paladin may have a little more insight into the hobgoblin having a problematic moral outlook, but upon learning he's not actually engaging in evil deeds and is part of an organized church that rather frowns on illegal behavior, the paladin was in the process of doing the right thing before the dwarf screwed things up.
No it wouldn't. That's a ridiculous moral standard - it's tantamount to saying that everyone's evil because they don't wipe evil out of existence.Not only was killing the hobgoblin not evil, if they didn't kill him (and left him alone), that would have been an evil act.
They are.
Joking aside, we are opening up a huge can of worms the moment we start asking, what is evil. Is it an absolute or relative standard? If it is absolute, what acts are evil and what are good? Who decides and on what basis?
Take the institute of slavery. Most would argue that it is an evil institution, yet that is a moral position that has existed for only a few hundred years, for thousands of years before that slavery existed and was accepted as normal (i.e. not evil). Major religions accept it and it was common in mediaeval times (on which Fantasy games are loosely based), so is it an evil institution or not? If I make a slaver character am I evil by default? or am I making a socially acceptable character that is a legitimate part of the paradigm of this world? Who decides? on what basis?
Another question is should someone unarmed who has surrendered be killed? What if they had confessed to murder and the nearest jail was a long way away? what if the characters implicitly have the right of justice? (this actually came up in a kingmaker campaign I played in).
The fact remains that people have been debating over what constitutes evil for years. While some acts (e.g. eating babies) are universally condemned, there is enough grey areas that some acts would be considered evil by one person and good by another, or the same act might be good in one place and evil in another (if the miscreant was apprehended in a nearby city, executing him out of hand would be an unlawful act as it is outside of the characters jurisdiction).
In this case, it could be argued that he is following the tenets of his God and therefore it is a good act; clearly the paladin and warpriest would not be permitted to do this but they are not followers of Torag. We could even argue that they are complicit by not acting or at least not taking in the Dwarf for justice.
If you don't want a character acting this way, you need to sit down and have a long, hard discussion about what you want as a group.
an unarmed old manAn unarmed old evil cleric. Hardly defenceless. He could probably wipe out a village just by channeling negative energy at them.
Beware the CR 1/3. We must kill all the dogs, goats, pigs, and owls in the land lest they are turned to evil and wipe out villages by themselves. Seriously though channel 1d6 will not kill a village unless he gets a surprise round, wins initiative against everyone, rolls max damage twice, they are all level 1 commoners, and they all fail their saves both times. Besides I was mainly referring to the fact there was basically no way he could kill the PC's. CR1/3 is not a threat to anyone above lv1. You want to render him harmless ok. Take his holy symbol, lock him up. Don't just kill someone who has done you no harm, you have no idea if he has ever done anything wrong, and can't possibly win a fight.
The PCs should be working on the assumption that he's level 5 at a minimum.