I just figure I would hang out in my bucket and make bubbling noises during non-combat stuff...
Ah, I was talking about the shifter in general. Oozemeister has it's own issues there. I could see smaller blocks for them as there is such a HUGE difference between forms, but I really can't see anything lower than 10 min blocks. Rounds just seems way too limiting.
PS: I had an awesome idea! Put Lashunta ooze boy/girl in a large armored backpack. Put backpack on melee fighters back. Let fighter bring you to the fight while you attack from cover! Need to talk? Use Limited Telepathy! Need to move something? Use your Mage Hand SU ability! It's pure win. ;) [it's almost as good as playing a race with change shape!]
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The shifters claws don't seem to have the monk/brawler ability to either be a manufactured or natural weapon for spells.
Maybe i'm the only one that uses that tactic, but having a shifter in the party with the druid as the only way to buff your claws is going to be a bit limiting in a bag of mixed nuts.
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I just figure I would hang out in my bucket and make bubbling noises during non-combat stuff...
I feel like "wake me up when it's time to fight" would make for a very dull archetype for a whole lot of people (myself included.)
Hmm I got it Belt of the mighty fist! same as amulet but takes up different slot. also about 20% cheaper.
The real question is what's the Oozeshaper supposed to have going for it to compensate for that penalty? It's not combat ability, because it gets pounce delayed by a whole 11 levels over the regular shifter and it can lose access to its unique natural attack feature depending on which form it shifts into.
Well, oozemorph is a better master of many forms than a shifter. Shifter gets 5, Oozemorph gets all medium/small humanoids, tiny-large animals, and all large giants as options. And it gets compression in all of these forms, making large forms easier in dungeons and allowing an oozemorph in tiny forms to drip through almost any opening. So, maybe utility is supposed to be the benefit?
Also you might get defensive bonuses from DR/slashing. Though I doubt it's all that great, since swords and claws all bypass the DR (and are fairly common). Maybe the fact that oozemorph only loses the DR in metal armor where shifter loses nearly everything is relevant here as well for making more armor types available (like mithral for really high-dex builds).
Quick note for movement, even without a land speed any oozemorph can move 5 ft/turn just like any other creature with a speed of 0. It's a full round action, which means that at the very least you can get from point A to B even if you can't viably use it in combat. See here.
Another question/grey area, assuming the author's intent that any gear worn when you enter ooze form melds with you, what happens if you turn into a human, put on a chain shirt, melt into an ooze, and then become a wolf? Does your armor stay melded into your form? Does it reshape to fit your new body? Does it break?
If you became a wolf it melds into you, as per the polymorph rules. If there's some corner case/weird existential physics where it matters if it resurfaces for a second, its probably not important.
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Given how activating SU abilities works, if someone with Shapeshifter's Foil punches you in ooze form and you fail the save, are you just shunted back into your original form until you spend a standard action to re-activate fluid form?
I don't see the functional difference: Under what situation are there substantial/noticeable variance in how they work? IMO it's a difference in semantics, not a different set of rules.
Normal situations. Treated as means it's not actually, so you never use the polymorph rules in the first place to adjudicate its function, and therefore don't lose any racial features.
Instead it merely means that spells or effects that reference polymorph work on/with fluid form. i.e. True Seeing can see through you.
You call it a difference in semantics, but it seems to me that if you use two different sets of phrasing for two abilities it probably means something different.
Notably this reading also means the ability is actually functional at all.
Quick note for movement, even without a land speed any oozemorph can move 5 ft/turn just like any other creature with a speed of 0. It's a full round action, which means that at the very least you can get from point A to B even if you can't viably use it in combat. See here.
You might not have noticed it since you picked it of from D20, but it's not truly a minimum speed section but a "Move 5 Feet through Difficult Terrain" action. It allows you to move 5' no matter what penalties to your speed and not an allowance for normally immobile creatures to move.
Does your armor stay melded into your form?Yes
Does it reshape to fit your new body? Does it break?
No. [unless it's enchanted somehow to do so when changing into a wolf from a humanoid form]
Treated as means it's not actually, so you never use the polymorph rules in the first place to adjudicate its function, and therefore don't lose any racial features.
I can't see how treated as means ignore the polymorph section... I'd need to see a FAQ to accept that one or an errata saying "treated as polymorph FOR "spells or effects that reference polymorph". Without an added proviso that there is some limiting factor, I'm not seeing the distinction you see. It's definitely NOT a common sense, conversational read we're told we should use with the rules.
I disagree. "Treat as" pretty clearly implies it's not the same thing, but is treated similarly.
If you were introduced to someone and told to "Treat her like family", you wouldn't assume that means she literally is family. More likely the opposite.
It's definitely NOT a common sense, conversational read we're told we should use with the rules.
I can see where you're coming from, but I'd argue it fits the common sense and conversational angle a lot better than asserting the ability literally breaks your character by leaving all of your statistics completely undefined.
If you were introduced to someone and told to "Treat her like family", you wouldn't assume that means she literally is family. More likely the opposite.
Going with this, someone I treat as family doesn't get different treatment do they? For instance, if I have family's phone numbers on my phone would that mean 'someone treat as family' DOESN'T get added? "Treated as" means they get the same treatment.
Treated as MEANS treated as. ""Treat as" pretty clearly implies it's not the same thing, but is treated similarly." How is ignore ALL the rules for that kind of thing "treated similarly"? Where is the limit and who picks and chooses where and when it gets 'treated as' and when it isn't 'treated as'.
For me, "treated as" if only different from 'is an effect' where it's explicitly spelled out it's different. In this case, that difference is 0%.
I can see where you're coming from, but I'd argue it fits the common sense and conversational angle a lot better than asserting the ability literally breaks your character by leaving all of your statistics completely undefined.
It then "literally breaks" verisimilitude as you have blobs that are limited by a form they no longer have. Why does a merfolk's lack of legs limit a form that HAS NO legs and why does that prevent trips when a normally 2 legged races blob form can be tripped because of legs it doesn't have? Your way allows blobs with natural attacks, prehensile tails, wings, 4 arms, 10' tongue and all kinds of things that make NO sense on a formless blob.
So 'defined stats' doesn't remove problems but just creates more that it solves as NONE of it makes the least bit of sense. You 'break' the archetype by allowing races with change self to completely ignore the ooze form for pure profit: do you think that's better RAI than undefined stats?
Yeah the ooze form definitely needs its stats explicitly stated, as is it makes no sense. IMO the only thing you should keep from your base race is mental ability score adjustments.
For me, speed and senses should be set with blob. Mental abilities from former race should be usable in blob form. Stats could be kept [as they stay with polymorph effects].
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For me, speed and senses should be set with blob. Mental abilities from former race should be usable in blob form. Stats could be kept [as they stay with polymorph effects].
Yeah I guess mental abilities in general would make sense, although I still don't think physical ability score adjustments from race should carry over. I can see why they do for regular polymorph effects, since those are temporary and it would be a hassle to track most likely, but if this is permanently changing you into an ooze I think it should be thorough about what you do and do not lose.
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The only problem I see is that certain races, like changelings, benefit from losing physical score adjustments, because they're only losing the penalty. Aside from that, I don't see why it's much different from how your physical ability scores affect your polymorphed ability scores.
I also think that it makes sense that a physically frail body would turn into a less damage-absorbing ooze (and so on for the other attributes). I mean, it makes as much sense as "you can hurt that puddle by punching it really hard" does.
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Hey everyone, some of you might want to check out the Skin-Changer in the New Paths Compendium, which releases in the next week or so.
I think the Skin-Changer might be a lot closer to what many folks were hoping for in a full BAB shifting class...
You can check out a preview of the Skin-Changer and New Paths Compendium here!:
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Hey everyone, some of you might want to check out the Skin-Changer...
That does certainly sound interesting to me. I have a couple questions about it, if that's okay:
Does it have a limited number of animal forms it could choose to take? And could you give a little bit more info about the talents? To be more specific, are they similar to talents/discoveries/etc of the base pathfinder stuff or something else entirely?
When I think of "entry level," I think of newbies purchasing the Beginner's Box and understanding the basic mechanics of the game. The fact that they basically set the Shifter's bar to "entry level," that means they set it to the Beginner's Box.
In which case, the Shifter was doomed from the start, because it won't see much play or support outside of being considered in the Beginner's Box.
As the guy who got tripped up with the wording of weapon proficiencies in the BB, and tried to build a magus, I've been doing better with my first/entry level character the more books I get.
So are we expecting input from the Developers today ?
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Hey everyone, some of you might want to check out the Skin-Changer...That does certainly sound interesting to me. I have a couple questions about it, if that's okay:
Does it have a limited number of animal forms it could choose to take? And could you give a little bit more info about the talents? To be more specific, are they similar to talents/discoveries/etc of the base pathfinder stuff or something else entirely?
Sure!
The Skin-Changer does not have a limited number of animal forms it can take, but it does of course have a limit to the number of times per day he can do this. This ability scales quite nicely as the Skin-Changer gains levels, including things like attacks while in animal form being treated as magical attacks, gaining cool bonus feats, bonuses to hit and damage etc while in animal form.
Talents are similar to discoveries, yes. The Skin-Changer has some similarities to the Spell-less Ranger, which has a host of Ranger Talents to choose from. The Skin-Changer gains a similar group of talents.
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I'm reserving final judgment for when I read the class, but Druids can get swim speeds and shifters apparently can't. Ergo Druids have a more comprehensive shifting kit than a class supposedly built around the idea. 0/10Shifter can get swim speeds, large frog Wildshape gives them a 30/60 ft. swim speed.
Hence why final judgement is reserved until I get a crack at the class.
Although, if you would never grab that aspect, then a level 4 druid is a more varied shifter than a max level Shifter.
There is really no excuse in letting a class's main thing be less versatile than a secondary feature of another class.
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I can understand why they don't want to do public play test anymore but results speak for themselves and wow this class was very disappointing. It truly felt like a first draft play test class. It saddens me that such an interesting concept was done so badly:(
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It might be disappointing to you, but for what they were striving to create (entry level shapeshifting class), it hits on all the marks it's supposed to hit.
I just think the expectations everyone was wanting were simply too much and too different compared to what was being promised and created.
Like I said, entry level = beginner box. I don't see the class being useful outside of NPC levels and the beginner box, which means they hit the mark they wanted to hit.
They just didn't hit the mark we wanted it to hit, which is more our fault than theirs.
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It might be disappointing to you, but for what they were striving to create (entry level shapeshifting class), it hits on all the marks it's supposed to hit.
I just think the expectations everyone was wanting were simply too much and too different compared to what was being promised and created.
Like I said, entry level = beginner box. I don't see the class being useful outside of NPC levels and the beginner box, which means they hit the mark they wanted to hit.
They just didn't hit the mark we wanted it to hit, which is more our fault than theirs.
I like to add that I DM on the regular for a group of variously busy players, many of which weren't even aware of the existence of the class until I handed it them. I said nothing and let them come to their own conclusions. They all didn't like it and prefaced many questions about the class with, "Why didn't they...". Of course the comparisons came and they were all the same classes and archetypes everyone was mentioning.
What I'm saying is its not our fault for having these expectations when there are people who expected nothing and were still disappointed.
...its actually kinda strange they put this out, very strange.
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It might be disappointing to you, but for what they were striving to create (entry level shapeshifting class), it hits on all the marks it's supposed to hit.
I just think the expectations everyone was wanting were simply too much and too different compared to what was being promised and created.
Like I said, entry level = beginner box. I don't see the class being useful outside of NPC levels and the beginner box, which means they hit the mark they wanted to hit.
They just didn't hit the mark we wanted it to hit, which is more our fault than theirs.
I've heard this argument a lot and it just makes me ask two questions.
1) Assuming this was how the class was intended to turn out, why exactly did they come up with 'simplified to the point of inadequacy shapeshifter' as the primary design goal? Creating an entirely new class that's uesless to anyone other than a GM making NPCs or first timers who don't know better seems pointless.
2) Who came up with the idea of an entry level shapeshifter anyway? If doesn't seem like something a lot of players wanted or anything like that. So where exactly did the idea of an entry level shifter come from in the first place?
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Hey everyone, some of you might want to check out the Skin-Changer in the New Paths Compendium, which releases in the next week or so.
I think the Skin-Changer might be a lot closer to what many folks were hoping for in a full BAB shifting class...
You can check out a preview of the Skin-Changer and New Paths Compendium here!:
I can't help but smile at this. I admire such of striking of the iron while it's hot. Well here's to the first of many shapechanging 3pp classes attempting to fill a niche that Paizo themselves refuse to do so.
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Unfortunately, it's 3PP trying to bandage a wound left by Pathfinder rules, and it isn't very good for folks who are in Organized Play as TOZ noted above.
I don't play enough 'home game' (and several players have stepped away from ANY d20 system of late, due to a 5e implosion recently) so 3PP isn't very helpful unless it is adopted by Organized Play.
There are so many simple ways this class could be fixed, and I hope the developers are hearing the message we're putting through despite their incredibly busy schedule.
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2) Who came up with the idea of an entry level shapeshifter anyway? If doesn't seem like something a lot of players wanted or anything like that. So where exactly did the idea of an entry level shifter come from in the first place?
I didn't hear anything to this effect....until after people started expressing disappointment in the class.
It kind of comes off as a bit of an excuse IMO.....
It might be disappointing to you, but for what they were striving to create (entry level shapeshifting class), it hits on all the marks it's supposed to hit.
I just think the expectations everyone was wanting were simply too much and too different compared to what was being promised and created.
Like I said, entry level = beginner box. I don't see the class being useful outside of NPC levels and the beginner box, which means they hit the mark they wanted to hit.
They just didn't hit the mark we wanted it to hit, which is more our fault than theirs.
I've heard this argument a lot and it just makes me ask two questions.
1) Assuming this was how the class was intended to turn out, why exactly did they come up with 'simplified to the point of inadequacy shapeshifter' as the primary design goal? Creating an entirely new class that's uesless to anyone other than a GM making NPCs or first timers who don't know better seems pointless.
2) Who came up with the idea of an entry level shapeshifter anyway? If doesn't seem like something a lot of players wanted or anything like that. So where exactly did the idea of an entry level shifter come from in the first place?
1. Just to clarify, I agree with the sentiment that the class seems pointless to me too. So do most NPC classes, and several PRCS; I don't find them useful to my playstyle. But the class wasn't written to be something beyond what it was stated to be, so I can't exactly evaluate it with what I want in such a class compared to what Paizo wanted in that class. Hence why I said they basically made a Beginner's Box class, and they were successful on that front, which to Paizo, was the goal they were wanting to meet.
2. Clearly, Paizo did. There are several blog posts detailing that very exact phrase. As to whether players wanted it or not, this thread, and several others, are proof of whatever that answer really is.
I don't play enough 'home game' (and several players have stepped away from ANY d20 system of late, due to a 5e implosion recently) so 3PP isn't very helpful unless it is adopted by Organized Play.
5E implosion?
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1. Just to clarify, I agree with the sentiment that the class seems pointless to me too. So do most NPC classes, and several PRCS; I don't find them useful to my playstyle. But the class wasn't written to be something beyond what it was stated to be, so I can't exactly evaluate it with what I want in such a class compared to what Paizo wanted in that class. Hence why I said they basically made a Beginner's Box class, and they were successful on that front, which to Paizo, was the goal they were wanting to meet.
2. Clearly, Paizo did. There are several blog posts detailing that very exact phrase. As to whether players wanted it or not, this thread, and several others, are proof of whatever that answer really is.
Honestly to me it's starting to sound like whoever was designing the Shifter was deadset on making it the way it is and there was little that could be done about it and Paizo was throwing that out to soften the blow.
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5E implosion?
I don't play enough 'home game' (and several players have stepped away from ANY d20 system of late, due to a 5e implosion recently) so 3PP isn't very helpful unless it is adopted by Organized Play.
I imagine a home 5e game destroyed itself so badly the players just stopped playing RPGs at all. That's not really related to the topic at hand though.
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I can't help but smile at this. I admire such of striking of the iron while it's hot. Well here's to the first of many shapechanging 3pp classes attempting to fill a niche that Paizo themselves refuse to do so.Hey everyone, some of you might want to check out the Skin-Changer in the New Paths Compendium, which releases in the next week or so.
I think the Skin-Changer might be a lot closer to what many folks were hoping for in a full BAB shifting class...
You can check out a preview of the Skin-Changer and New Paths Compendium here!:
Heh, thanks!
Oh, and as a fun little point of fact, the skin-changer actually first came out well *before* the shifter was even announced :)
Really hope everyone that's OK third party material gives the class (and the book!) a shot!
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There is really no excuse in letting a class's main thing be less versatile than a secondary feature of another class.Yeah, but "worse than a druid" is not exactly an uncommon criticism.
but worse than one druid secondary class features IS a unique criticism.
Take the druid: remove all spellcasting and animal companion, and Add full BaB. That archetype appears to out class the shifter and have more functional shifting abilities by lvl 4.
Filling every line on the level up table isn't that interesting when all you did was cut up a good ability into finer pieces.
We'll see if the shifter is as bad as all that. But aspect limited forms is not setting this class up for meeting the bare minimum criteria of being a better shifter than a druid.
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It might be disappointing to you, but for what they were striving to create (entry level shapeshifting class), it hits on all the marks it's supposed to hit.
I just think the expectations everyone was wanting were simply too much and too different compared to what was being promised and created.
Like I said, entry level = beginner box. I don't see the class being useful outside of NPC levels and the beginner box, which means they hit the mark they wanted to hit.
They just didn't hit the mark we wanted it to hit, which is more our fault than theirs.
I feel though, this is fixable (for us) over time. The level of system knowledge/mastery can be assumed to be higher for splatbooks (Player Companions say) than it is for hardbacks, and every class has received some good archetypes *after* the book it was printed in.
The issue I have is if we're "fixing" the shifter through an archetype, what class features can you trade away? There's not a whole lot to give up.
"worse than a druid" is not exactly an uncommon criticism.
Haven't read this entire thread, but: how does the Shifter compare to martial classes? Can it compete with, say, the Slayer, which I remember reading that Paizo thought was pretty well balanced?
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but worse than one druid secondary class features IS a unique criticism.There is a reason we call the animal companion the "pocket fighter".
So now we're using the fighter as our benchmark again? Got it. Personally, I think the core Rogue would be a closer comparison, but 'on par with what's considered the second-weakest class in the game' isn't really that great of a claim.
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Druid's capstone is wild shape at-will rather than 8/day.
If you're interested in building a shifter type character using the druid as a chassis then the capstone REALLY comes at L17 with the shapechange spell. Change as a free action (once a round, admittedly) with a much greater range of choices than wild shape.
I've played my druid to L17 and shapechange absolutely ROCKS!!!!!
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"worse than a druid" is not exactly an uncommon criticism.Haven't read this entire thread, but: how does the Shifter compare to martial classes? Can it compete with, say, the Slayer, which I remember reading that Paizo thought was pretty well balanced?
How are we comparing it here, are we including expanded sources for content or are we making it a "fair" comparison by only using the base material a class has to work with? Because I'd say it's probably hovering around the level of a CRB-only Monk or Fighter.
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class has this for combat boosters for most of it's career we're assuming your first is tiger or dino for fastest pounce.
2 1d4 claws.
at lv4 it gets wild shape for 4 hours in 1 chunk for size bonus to str and 3 attacks. This pretty much nets +1 to attack and +2-3 to damage (size penalty cuts the attack the str is giving)
at lv5 you can get minutes per day enhancement to str (matching that belt you have)
at lv6 you now have 2 chunks so you can be in your animal form all day.
at lv7 your claws now do d6 of damage
at lv8 your enhancement to str is now +4 and probably got faster than the +4 belt
at lv9 you can have a bonus to another stat while your str buff is active.
So in all it's likely less accurate than the slayer, And doing probably about as much as the slayer (assuming slayer got natural attacks). But the slayer has more skills and utility, and can talk.
Biggest thing, and the thing that probably crippled it's budget, is getting pounce at lv4, though it's a worse version than the pounce the druid gets at lv6 because the shifter's animal form is nerfed.
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...and dollars to donuts if folks ALL take the 'pounce' forms they'll be nerfed/banned faster than you can say 'foam toy' in Organized Play.
That's based on previous experience when everyone started taking 'a thing', so I'm not talking out of my butt here.