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I was hoping for a dragon and/or fey shifter archetype but now looking at the base class, and what they have to work with, I am glad they didn't.
Shifter is up on pfsrd
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I think the most unnerving thing is that you have to take *the same stats* that a druid would take to be effective as a Shifter, but none of the benefits thereof.
ie, Dex is kinda important, Con is kinda important, Wis is kinda important.
...which is a bit of a disconnect when the character doesn't have spells or anything of the like to 'tie' to Wisdom save an AC boost that doesn't *do* much.
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Wow.... I mean, the Shifter can sometimes *look* good, but it's severely hindered by the uses per day. And the inconsistent writing. So, things like Lizard, Bull, and Falcon all mention which natural attacks they get. So, does that mean Bat gets no attacks? How much damage does the frog's bite do? Does the bear even get the claws that later abilities reference? So many questions....
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Beyond all that (and I agree with most of what has been said, so I'm not gonna repeat it), one thing I really dont't get is : why do you not count as a druid for pre-reqs ?
Most wild shape feats require actual druid levels, like say Wild Speech, because being able to communicate with your party seems kind of important.
Also you cannot be a stockier, bulkier versionof your animal (Powerful Wild Shape), but you can totally be a celestial/fiendish one (Planar Wild Shape) ?
Really ?
Why ?
If not that, get Wild Speech or an equivalent baked in.
No point in being able to be transformed for days on end if you end up burning through your usages just to be able to talk.
This feels like it's discouraging either wildshaping, or interaction of any sort (rping, even, if you're being a tad dramatic).
Feels like a problem.
All in all :
I love the idea of a shifter. It's a classic trope, extremely flavorful, fun and yes : it's something I've been waiting for.
Yet I do not understand what this class's purpose is.
I'd half expect a non-caster shapeshifter to be better at that than the druid if that's the main focus (not necessarily raw power-wise mind you, versatility and utility are at least as important), or at least on par if it gets some other flavorful, useful stuff.
Here, it is absolutely the main focus (well ... maybe ?), yet it feels like a barely passable metamorph with no other real strengths.
I love the idea, but I don't see why I would play one.
Short of maybe the archetypes that just get rid of wild shape, for an entirely different flavor.
And considering the amount of weirdness in said archetypes, that'll wait until we get a satisfying amount of erratas&faqs, which could take a while.
So I'll be keeping an hopeful eye on you, mister shifter sir, but from a safe distance.
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Shifter is up on pfsrd
Aspects to pick: 1st Mouse, 5th dino, 10th Bat, 15 Wolverine.
Mouse grants utility and the minor grants evasion.
Dino gets up to 5 attacks and pounce.
Bat grants flight and Large size (you have to use shifter claws).
Wolverine grants needed to-hit bonuses.
People did not mention that claws are always used even while Wildshaped AND bypass most kinds of dr. Nor were people clear that you could have 3 minor aspects and one major aspect eventually.
Assuming str based so 18 14 14 9 14 7 starting, AC can easily reach ~30 ish. No nat armor enhancement assumed because you are not a druid and took up the amulet slot. Or you could dump Wis and Dex and grab wild heavy dragon hide plate with a feat and get ~35ish AC.
OK you are kind of screwed in the ac department unless you go Dex focused. But then you want mouse, dino, falcon, and FILL for minors and to-hit bonuses. And if that feat really does exist that turns Dex to damage for shifters, then your golden. AC around 35~39, where mouse is your boss killer. Dino form is for mook clearing. Your to-hit caps at +39 in mouse form. Halfling builds would get more AC
One possibility is to use monkey for strength builds to use a shield and wild plate to get 42 AC but now you do no damage.
Conclusion: Strength builds are not viable. Dex shifters are still pretty bad.
Conclusion: this class is hot garbage. At least CRB rogue gets skill points. This class is little better than a warrior npc, actually it's worse. The warrior gets better proficiencies and can spend feats on magic item crafting and UMD rather than on shifter feat taxes. I would toss this class into tier 6 with actual NPC classes. It's between warrior and expert.
Also, I'd like to point out that it is complete nonsense that this class is entry level.
You need pretty advance system mastery to keep your AC, to-hit, and ability to get to the enemy good.
Druids can cast airwalk and barkskin on themselves and can prepare those spells any day. Strongjaw is more advanced, but between both the druid and the AC attacking, you can petter out decent damage v without it. Druid also has spells for range combat. Shifter is basically hosed.
Now a warrior can wear mithral full plate and a shield and eventually reach 43 AC. They can also use either a longsword or a composite bow. I could start with 18 str 12 Dex 14 con 14 int 8 Wis 12 cha, pump umd with trait, skill focus, and a circlet of persuasion for a +24 by level 10. A wand of heroism and a +5 courageous weapon beers you a plus +4 moral bonus to-hit.
With another want for haste the warrior can throw out +40/40/35/30/25 for 1d8+15 OR 34/34/29/24/19 for 1d8+27 which can actually hit a boss and take the hits.
Interestingly, a Shifter wearing Chainshirt gets full Wisdom bonus to AC, but loses Supernatural abilities.
If only an oozemorph could wear Chain shirt then we could stay human and get DR/Slashing and Wis to AC because turning into a Ooze is Supernatural. Wait, you can, turn human wearing Shirt then stay human till removing shirt.
You could also teach others Druidic, but wearing armor seems less of a fuss.
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Interestingly, a Shifter wearing Chainshirt gets full Wisdom bonus to AC, but loses Supernatural abilities.
How do you get that? A Chain Shirt is neither "no armor" nor non-metal armor. You would lose your Wisdom bonus to AC completely.
Beyond all that (and I agree with most of what has been said, so I'm not gonna repeat it), one thing I really dont't get is : why do you not count as a druid for pre-reqs ?
Isn’t there a clause about the shifter having an effective druid level in regards to feat prerequisites? They can take just about any wild shape feat they want.
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Isn’t there a clause about the shifter having an effective druid level in regards to feat prerequisites? They can take just about any wild shape feat they want.Beyond all that (and I agree with most of what has been said, so I'm not gonna repeat it), one thing I really dont't get is : why do you not count as a druid for pre-reqs ?
Yep-Yep. Last paragraph of their Wild Shape entry.
Now oozemorph is actually good. Many more shifting options. Half level uses of a more versatile Wildshape. Delayed progression, but can add 4 primary attacks to any form (total attacks, this makes a lot of forms combat viable). Oozeform is actually very clear just wonky. The kind of ooze you are is based on the starting race.
They can wear metal armor and don't need Wis. Without dipping you are looking at Max 30 AC again without some fiddling. Potions of Barkskin or grabbing a shield Prof for 36-41 AC. If you grab heavy armor Prof then your AC can become 38 with no potions and less Dex, but you lose your DR so not worth it.
Giant form nets you 2 AC and 2 to-hit.
Conclusion: Oozemorph is a solid tier 4 class with optimization. It's just better than base shifter.
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If I were to house-rule that the Shifter gets Wild Speech as a bonus feat (without having to meet the prerequisites) at level 4, that would be reasonable right?
Like I legitimately do not understand how the class is able to function in a party without being able to communicate while shifted for levels 4-6. That just seems annoying to RP, and being a martial class the Shifter needs feats more than the druid, hunter, or ranger does but sadly gets no bonus feats.
Oh wow, I totally missed that. Not sure how I managed that.
My bad, and such a relief.
Doesn't solve a whole lot, but that's one problem I accidentally made up - not needed, me, there's enough of those as is.
Still unlikely to play one as is, curiosity be damned, but I guess it's not as bad as I made it out to be. Thanks for the correction, by the way.
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If I were to house-rule that the Shifter gets Wild Speech as a bonus feat (without having to meet the prerequisites) at level 4, that would be reasonable right?
Like I legitimately do not understand how the class is able to function in a party without being able to communicate while shifted for levels 4-6. That just seems annoying to RP, and being a martial class the Shifter needs feats more than the druid, hunter, or ranger does but sadly gets no bonus feats.
I don't think it is unreasonable, but the shifter isn't necessarily feat-starved. Not any more than a wild shape-focused druid, anyway. Perhaps even less so, since they don't have to grab Natural Spell, Extend Spell, or whatever else a melee druid might grab to supplement their spellcasting.
I personally think that pantomiming while in beast mode is part of the fun, but your mileage might vary.
Oozemorph: Especially after you teach someone Druidic.
And loose Fluidic body?
Uh no. I'll take my half level per day alter self and beast shape 1. Thank you very much (giant form and beast shape 2 at 15!)
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Not sure I agree it’s straight better. It’s got some nice stuff but it has some serious low level issues and doesn’t get to enjoy super early access pounce. Four natural attacks in any form is nice, but the cap on them means certain natural combat forms get little to no value from the feature. Just grabbing a weapon with some free extra attacks is nice though.
One thing I sorta wish the Oozemorph did was let you choose to have metamorphic weapons override your form’s default natural attacks if you wanted. There’s a few forms that end up kind of sucking because it eats away some of your natural attack potential by giving you less useful ones.
Being able to shift at level 1 as a move action and gaining half level usages is pretty sweet though. Wish the base shifter had that. Though like with the base shifter the lack of an eventual at-will upgrade feels odd. Instead the oozemorph’s capstone is a glorious +2 to its DR. Yay.
Your ooze form can grow natural attacks too. Very useful at low levels.
For my table levels 1-7 go by quickly since no one really likes them
I think the class turns out way better when you don't have to balance around level 4 pounce.
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Well, here's the thing.
Wear bad clothing/teach druidic, and JUST before you level up, get an Atonement.
Wait a few weeks.
Do a different 'bad thing'.
Just before you level up, get an Atonement.
You only have to do this three or four times until you're at a spot where your form is 'stable' enough that you don't have to wear bad clothes or hate nature or teach druidic correspondence courses...
Wearing metal only causes the oozemorph to lose their DR and not for any amount of time just while wearing it.
Shifters are forbidden from teaching druidic, but their is no listed consequences for doing so. That means they just can't teach it to non druids or shifters.
Wearing metal only causes the oozemorph to lose their DR and not for any amount of time just while wearing it.
Shifters are forbidden from teaching druidic, but their is no listed consequences for doing so. That means they just can't teach it to non druids or shifters.
You sure about that?
A shifter who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a non-druid or a non-shifter loses all her supernatural abilities.
Fun fact. They messed up with ooze form by calling it a polymorph effect. That means magical items that work while polymorphed still work as an ooze. The items aren't worn, or held. They melded in the form, which means they still work if passive because the oozes slots don't matter. Just put the items on while alter selfed, oozeform them overrides the polymorph effect and incorporates the items.
I know that isn't Dev intent, but I could care less about that. Look at the base shifter...
Wearing metal only causes the oozemorph to lose their DR and not for any amount of time just while wearing it.
Shifters are forbidden from teaching druidic, but their is no listed consequences for doing so. That means they just can't teach it to non druids or shifters.
You sure about that?
A shifter who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a non-druid or a non-shifter loses all her supernatural abilities.
Ahhh it was hiding after aspects.
Oozemorph still doesn't fall from wearing metal
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Wearing metal only causes the oozemorph to lose their DR and not for any amount of time just while wearing it.
Shifters are forbidden from teaching druidic, but their is no listed consequences for doing so. That means they just can't teach it to non druids or shifters.
You sure about that?
A shifter who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a non-druid or a non-shifter loses all her supernatural abilities.Ahhh it was hiding after aspects.
Oozemorph still doesn't fall from wearing metal
You sure about that?
A shifter who wears prohibited armor or uses a prohibited shield is unable to use her shifter aspect, shifter claws, wild shape, and other shifter supernatural or spell-like abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.
I mean, I suppose it's *technically* true they don't Fall, but they still lose out on abilities. If anything, it's even better this way, because you don't have to pay anything to regain your abilities. Plus, if you're captured, wait 24 hours and *poof* you're a puddle of slime again!
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...and then you can just ooze your way out... oh... wait... Blobs of protoplasm don't have a listed movement rate, so you enter a quantum state.
Wearing metal only causes the oozemorph to lose their DR and not for any amount of time just while wearing it.
Shifters are forbidden from teaching druidic, but their is no listed consequences for doing so. That means they just can't teach it to non druids or shifters.
You sure about that?
A shifter who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a non-druid or a non-shifter loses all her supernatural abilities.Ahhh it was hiding after aspects.
Oozemorph still doesn't fall from wearing metal
You sure about that?
I mean, I suppose it's *technically* true they don't Fall, but they still lose out on abilities. If anything, it's even better this way, because you don't have to pay anything to regain your abilities. Plus, if you're captured, wait 24 hours and *poof* you're a puddle of slime again!
A shifter who wears prohibited armor or uses a prohibited shield is unable to use her shifter aspect, shifter claws, wild shape, and other shifter supernatural or spell-like abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.
Yes I am sure, oozemorph replaces that ability. They get different profs
”Weapon and Armor Proficiency
An oozemorph is proficient with all simple weapons and light armor.
This replaces a shifter’s normal weapon and armor proficiencies.”
Choose aspect of the Tiger, two weapon fighting, and improved natural attack for feats. Str at ~18 by that point (you could be at 20 if you had a +str race, but its not necessary). You get 2 attacks at +8 1d6+4 to hit plus grab, bite, and pounce. Claws bypass DR/ Cold Iron and Silver. AC is Dex+Wis, +2 for being Tiger 18-20AC without armor isn't unrealistic. Nothing about this seems either over or under-powered. It seems right where its supposed to be.
That being said, some of the Shifter aspects aren't worthy of being used, and will only see use in NPC's. I haven't looked closely but Aspect of the Bull makes you large as well when you get the major form? So +str and +str, on top of a charge gore, you could do some nasty things with that. Owl and Mouse aspect seem great for stealth, just bring a good weapon with you for the fighting parts.
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...and then you can just ooze your way out... oh... wait... Blobs of protoplasm don't have a listed movement rate, so you enter a quantum state.
Your oozeform uses your base race speed. It's clear but has stupid interactions with flying races.
I think the real issue is what happens when an Oozemorph loses the Fluidic Form ability. Does his base form change to his original humanoid race, or does he become a blob permanently stuck in ooze form? The fallen oozemorph trick only works if the first option is the correct one.
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...or swimming ones... or climbing ones...
...or swimming ones... or climbing ones...
Both of those make sense. It's naturally flying oozes that are stupid. But that is what the ability says.
Choose aspect of the Tiger, two weapon fighting, and improved natural attack for feats. Str at ~18 by that point (you could be at 20 if you had a +str race, but its not necessary). You get 2 attacks at +8 1d6+4 to hit plus grab, bite, and pounce. Claws bypass DR/ Cold Iron and Silver. AC is Dex+Wis, +2 for being Tiger 18-20AC without armor isn't unrealistic. Nothing about this seems either over or under-powered. It seems right where its supposed to be.
That being said, some of the Shifter aspects aren't worthy of being used, and will only see use in NPC's. I haven't looked closely but Aspect of the Bull makes you large as well when you get the major form? So +str and +str, on top of a charge gore, you could do some nasty things with that. Owl and Mouse aspect seem great for stealth, just bring a good weapon with you for the fighting parts.
I'm confused by why you took two weapon fighting.
Also, you can go back further in the thread to see some more fleshed out builds which showcase how the Shifter is pretty on par in combat with other martials as long as you utilize pounce.
I think the real issue is what happens when an Oozemorph loses the Fluidic Form ability. Does his base form change to his original humanoid race, or does he become a blob permanently stuck in ooze form? The fallen oozemorph trick only works if the first option is the correct one.
After teaching druidic or changing alignment (they can wear metal armor and only lose DR until the armor is removed), they lose the fluid form and revert back to their base race.
It's clear
It is? I can't see any indication of what an ooze would gain/lose from starting race. It sure doesn't follow polymorph rules as your form gives you speed and the blob had a speed of N/A.
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You sure about that?
I mean, I suppose it's *technically* true they don't Fall, but they still lose out on abilities. If anything, it's even better this way, because you don't have to pay anything to regain your abilities. Plus, if you're captured, wait 24 hours and *poof* you're a puddle of slime again!
A shifter who wears prohibited armor or uses a prohibited shield is unable to use her shifter aspect, shifter claws, wild shape, and other shifter supernatural or spell-like abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.
The issue is that the Oozemorph has only one Supernatural Ability (Fluidic Form) which is a bad thing to have, since your ooze form is very limited. Compression, Ooze Empathy, Morphic Weaponry, Damage Reduction, and Clinging Ooze are all (Ex) abilities rather than (Su) and aren't SLAs.
So does a human oozemorph in a chain shirt retain their humanity (because they lost the supernatural ability that makes them an ooze) but can still slither up walls? That seems to be RAW but not RAI.
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It's clearIt is? I can't see any indication of what an ooze would gain/lose from starting race. It sure doesn't follow polymorph rules as your form gives you speed and the blob had a speed of N/A.
In a permissive rules set, the ability states what you get and what you don't get get. If they do not indicate that something changed then it doesn't.
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You sure about that?
I mean, I suppose it's *technically* true they don't Fall, but they still lose out on abilities. If anything, it's even better this way, because you don't have to pay anything to regain your abilities. Plus, if you're captured, wait 24 hours and *poof* you're a puddle of slime again!
A shifter who wears prohibited armor or uses a prohibited shield is unable to use her shifter aspect, shifter claws, wild shape, and other shifter supernatural or spell-like abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.The issue is that the Oozemorph has only one Supernatural Ability (Fluidic Form) which is a bad thing to have, since your ooze form is very limited. Compression, Ooze Empathy, Morphic Weaponry, Damage Reduction, and Clinging Ooze are all (Ex) abilities rather than (Su) and aren't SLAs.
So does a human oozemorph in a chain shirt retain their humanity (because they lost the supernatural ability that makes them an ooze) but can still slither up walls? That seems to be RAW but not RAI.
I'm so annoyed. Oozemorph replaces that ability. They don't gain the metal armor restriction.
People keep quoting this wrong idea and it's right there in the archetype that proficiencies are replaced and that restriction is within shifter proficiencies.
It doesn't alter.
It replaces.
R E P L A C E S
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In a permissive rules set, the ability states what you get and what you don't get get. If they do not indicate that something changed then it doesn't.It's clearIt is? I can't see any indication of what an ooze would gain/lose from starting race. It sure doesn't follow polymorph rules as your form gives you speed and the blob had a speed of N/A.
Polymorph rules: "Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume." You literally can't keep your old races speed unless it says so BECAUSE of that "permissive rules set". Remember how you pointed out it's a polymorph effect? Blob form isn't your old races form, and polymorph goes off what form you currently are, not what form you used to be.
So, yes: speed N/A.
Well the Shifter is out on pfsrd and several communities are tearing it apart. This is going exactly how I expected...
In a permissive rules set, the ability states what you get and what you don't get get. If they do not indicate that something changed then it doesn't.It's clearIt is? I can't see any indication of what an ooze would gain/lose from starting race. It sure doesn't follow polymorph rules as your form gives you speed and the blob had a speed of N/A.Polymorph rules: "Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume." You literally can't keep your old races speed unless it says so BECAUSE of that "permissive rules set". Remember how you pointed out it's a polymorph effect? Blob form isn't your old races form, and polymorph goes off what form you currently are, not what form you used to be.
So, yes: speed N/A.
That argument makes more VASTLY more sense than saying oozemorph loses Fluidic Body while wearing metal armor.
I say you keep the old race base speed because the ability alters the form. You keep your type and gain the new type which means different oozemorphs are different types of creatures. It follows that oozemorphs of different races have different abilities.
Or are you also saying oozemorphs are blind, can't breathe and need to thus die automatically, can't hear, or smell?
Sure you CAN say zero move speed is raw but so is not breathing, and any RAW interpretation that says taking a level in this class kills you seems wrong to me.
Well the Shifter is out on pfsrd and several communities are tearing it apart. This is going exactly how I expected...
Personally, I'd like to see some kind of response from Paizo. It'd warm the cockles of my heart if they'd give a statement of their intentions with the class and where they feel the design ended up in relation to those goals. So far all we've got is vague notions of it being a "beginner" class that's not suited for veterans.
I'd also like to hear about what happened to the owlbear concept.
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Well the Shifter is out on pfsrd and several communities are tearing it apart. This is going exactly how I expected...Personally, I'd like to see some kind of response from Paizo. It'd warm the cockles of my heart if they'd give a statement of their intentions with the class and where they feel the design ended up in relation to those goals. So far all we've got is vague notions of it being a "beginner" class that's not suited for veterans.
I'd also like to hear about what happened to the owlbear concept.
Same thing that happened to ManBearPig...
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I say you keep the old race base speed because the ability alters the form.
That might be the intent, but that intent didn't make it onto the pages. You also run into issues where base blob forms would vary from 5' to 40' land speed depending on things like lack or legs or being "long-limbed" in a form they aren't in.
You keep your type and gain the new type which means different oozemorphs are different types of creatures.
But type and speed aren't linked. We're talking form based abilities not type based ones.
It follows that oozemorphs of different races have different abilities.
I agree: what I disagree on is that speed is one of those abilities.
Or are you also saying oozemorphs are blind, can't breathe and need to thus die automatically, can't hear, or smell?
Well, it's hard to say. Breathing, basic life functions are covered under both types. However, things like senses are sometimes form based and as we're talking about a polymorph effect, I have NO idea what the blob form gets.
Sure you CAN say zero move speed is raw but so is not breathing, and any RAW interpretation that says taking a level in this class kills you seems wrong to me.
No, that's incorrect. It's NOT a speed of 0 but an undefined speed: a 0 speed I know what to do with but an undefined one? that's unworkable.
And again, life function falls under type not form. It's a separate issue from speed.