Shifter's edge is going to be made to work like the Vigilante's Lethal Grace, so it's 1/2*Level to damage not Level to damage.Could one of you gents provide a link to this please?
I see the feat as essential to the Shifter class, as is. Much like Swashbuckler's Precise Strike class feature.
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Making the feat that rewards high dex characters *essential* to the class would be bad design, since the Shifter should absolutely be able to be a huge hulking (and wise) slow-moving bear of a person (who is occasionally also a bear).
It's not like the Swashbuckler where you're *supposed* to build a dex-based character.
I mean, the Shifter NPC I'm building for the file is a Dwarf in Wild Stoneplate.
Shifter's edge is going to be made to work like the Vigilante's Lethal Grace, so it's 1/2*Level to damage not Level to damage.Could one of you gents provide a link to this please?
I see the feat as essential to the Shifter class, as is. Much like Swashbuckler's Precise Strike class feature.
Edit: making it like Lethal Grace makes no sense. Lethal Grace is a silent STR boost for a switch hitter vigilante that has high DEX and lower STR. If you're offering tiny mouse as a major form for a class I don't think the intent is to split some of your attributes towards STR...
If it were so essential, it wouldn't be a feat but rather a class feature, right?
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Granted, this is all pre-buff... but it still looks pale for a 15th-level character. 5th level paladins or cavaliers charging with a lance and spirited charge can easily exceed 100 damage... this Mighty Mouse attempt barely goes over 100 damage at level 15. Sure, with buffs and more gold rubbed into the wound, I'm guessing we could reach 150 damage for a full attack, but that's assuming you're in the guy's face already. If not you're at 1d3+24 after taking a move action to get there. Not quite the battle opening you get with charge/power attack/triple damage on the lance.
I really have a problem with anything that basically requires pounce to function. There's probably no other way around this class other than getting pounce... sigh. And to me that's boring, so I'll take a pass for this class I think (even after looking at the shifter's archetypes I'm not really feeling it - I get the feeling that they left a dozen shifter-only feats out of the book that were necessary for the class to function; now that I hear they will nerf it further, I'm going to leave this lock this and throw the key unless the devs enlighten me as to how to make it work).
PS: I honestly think at this point that they built this class for dipping. It's a big dip bowl full of ranch. Want your fighter to fly? dip 4! want your rogue too... no! don't touch the rogue with that actually...
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Add a couple more attacks and the Dex version looks quite a bit better.
I just realized that post-nerf, Shifter's Edge won't work with builds that use DEX to damage. Lethal Grace says you must use STR to damage.
Locked. Key has been thrown beyond 5th range increment.
You're honestly better off just putting agile on a amulet of mighty fists and be done with it. Honestly I never got the whole purposely making it a challenge for dex melee to work when its just a different flavor of fighting for most people. My group just houserules that when you take weapon finesse you apply dex to damage as well.
As for getting a second head for bite attacks with mutated wild shape you can apply fluff that you're growing a weird misshapen pseudo head that's lacking features like nostrils or ears, has a grotesquely large mouth, and looks something like The Thing's head when in it's final form.
Weird that you guys are still discussing damage output when most of us seem to agree that it's serviceable-but-not-great as-is for damage and that EVERYTHING ELSE is the real problem.
The point of Shifter's Edge (and Trained Grace, and Lethal Grace) is to provide an alternative for dex builds to add damage that's not a feat with a bunch of hurdles (e.g. slashing grace) or the agile weapon enchantment (not very useful if you don't use weapons.)
Generally speaking, just aesthetically "your attacks benefit from both strength and dexterity" is preferable to "I have a Dex of 20 so I add +10 to damage even though I have a strength of 5".
TBH, I would prefer it if Slashing/Fencing/Starry/Whatever Grace feats were all replaced by things like Shifter's Edge and Lethal Grace. Not having to worry about what you're doing with your hands makes this much less of a hassle.
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** spoiler omitted **...The problem with this analysis is that it assumes the Shifter is never Wild Shaping, which by 6th they can do for 12 hours a day.
And that it assumes the Shifter can't add any additional natural attacks, which are actually quite easy to add.
The shifter can. You're absolutely right about that. And we could build in feats, and consider the druid wild shaping as well. It's just a baseline analysis, not a "what could you achieve"? But, you're absolutely right that in a fair comparison, I should have been demonstrating the shifter's attacks far better.
So, let's say that you go Dire Tiger and Bull to get 2d4+7 claw damage, plus 2d6+7 bite damage (average 38 damage per round) at 6th level. This is the highest damage per round at this level of the martial classes.
At 11th level, we'll add in Bear to get to 2d6+8 claw damage, plus 2d6+8 bite damage, plus 1d8+12 trample damage (average 61.5 damage per round). Falls behind the paladin/antipaladin to end up in 2nd place.
Then at 16th level, we'll add Deinonychus to get 2d8+9 claw damage, plus 2d6+9 bite damage, plus 1d10+9 rake damage, plus 1d8+13 trample damage (average 84 damage per round). Also falls behind the cavalier/samurai to take 3rd place.
It was not my intention to misrepresent the class, and I'd like to thank you for pointing out the error.
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Weird that you guys are still discussing damage output when most of us seem to agree that it's serviceable-but-not-great as-is for damage and that EVERYTHING ELSE is the real problem.
It's basically getting to the stage where everyone had their say about how poorly this class is put together and now where we're getting to the number crunching and finding that it's still a poor class to play on top of the lack of versatility.
I don't think damage would be that big of issue if you had a greater flexibility with the forms at least because then you can change into a form that makes Shifter Claws a non issue.
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The number crunching was done ages ago. We're past that.
At 11th level, we'll add in Bear to get to 2d6+8 claw damage, plus 2d6+8 bite damage, plus 1d8+12 trample damage (average 61.5 damage per round). Falls behind the paladin/antipaladin to end up in 2nd place.
Then at 16th level, we'll add Deinonychus to get 2d8+9 claw damage, plus 2d6+9 bite damage, plus 1d10+9 rake damage, plus 1d8+13 trample damage (average 84 damage per round). Also falls behind the cavalier/samurai to take 3rd place.
Where are you getting that Trample?
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I just realized that post-nerf, Shifter's Edge won't work with builds that use DEX to damage. Lethal Grace says you must use STR to damage.
Locked. Key has been thrown beyond 5th range increment.
It's not all that bad. 6 attacks for +25 to hit and +22 damage a piece (plus dice) or so isn't nothing, and is doable with Dex 28, an Agile AoMF +3, and Piranha Strike alone. Well, and Falcon form.
Weird that you guys are still discussing damage output when most of us seem to agree that it's serviceable-but-not-great as-is for damage and that EVERYTHING ELSE is the real problem.
Eh. 'Everything else' is an exaggeration. AC and Saves are fine. The Shifter's a perfectly serviceable combatant. The issues are with flavor and, most importantly, utility, which they are seriously lacking in.
My contention, such as it is, is that they're not any more lacking in utility than many other 4+Int Skill or lower martials. That's not an endorsement, it's a statement of baseline viability.
It was not my intention to misrepresent the class, and I'd like to thank you for pointing out the error.
For the record, I never thought you were intentionally misrepresenting anything, I was simply noting what I saw as an issue with the analysis.
And you're quite welcome. :)
Where are you getting that Trample?
At 11th level, we'll add in Bear to get to 2d6+8 claw damage, plus 2d6+8 bite damage, plus 1d8+12 trample damage (average 61.5 damage per round). Falls behind the paladin/antipaladin to end up in 2nd place.
Then at 16th level, we'll add Deinonychus to get 2d8+9 claw damage, plus 2d6+9 bite damage, plus 1d10+9 rake damage, plus 1d8+13 trample damage (average 84 damage per round). Also falls behind the cavalier/samurai to take 3rd place.
This is a fair point, but the Deinonychus has kicked in then and can be achieve equivalent or higher DPR so the analysis probably stands (and is roughly where I thought it would be).
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Where are you getting that Trample?
At 11th level, we'll add in Bear to get to 2d6+8 claw damage, plus 2d6+8 bite damage, plus 1d8+12 trample damage (average 61.5 damage per round). Falls behind the paladin/antipaladin to end up in 2nd place.
Then at 16th level, we'll add Deinonychus to get 2d8+9 claw damage, plus 2d6+9 bite damage, plus 1d10+9 rake damage, plus 1d8+13 trample damage (average 84 damage per round). Also falls behind the cavalier/samurai to take 3rd place.
Ah, that must be an error with Hero Lab (which is where I usually do my proofing). It comes from the bull, but you only get it with the major form. That drops the damage at 11th and 16th, respectively, to 45 and 66.5 average damage per round.
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Weird that you guys are still discussing damage output when most of us seem to agree that it's serviceable-but-not-great as-is for damage and that EVERYTHING ELSE is the real problem.It's basically getting to the stage where everyone had their say about how poorly this class is put together and now where we're getting to the number crunching and finding that it's still a poor class to play on top of the lack of versatility.
I don't think damage would be that big of issue if you had a greater flexibility with the forms at least because then you can change into a form that makes Shifter Claws a non issue.
This is absolutely the point. The lack of versatility is what makes this particular class bland at best. There's a niche for it to fill, but it does so in a particularly poor manner, and so it just seems to have no genuine place in the grand scheme of things. The add-ins from other classes could have been replaced by much better class features (on a whim, I'd give the class some animal version of leadership that grants some "pack magic"/"pack synergies" where if your "pack" is nearby, you get some fast healing, or damage reduction, or some other kind of supernatural benefit), and the chimeric abilities could have been rolled into a single ability with a more imaginative capstone.
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This is absolutely the point. The lack of versatility is what makes this particular class bland at best. There's a niche for it to fill, but it does so in a particularly poor manner, and so it just seems to have no genuine place in the grand scheme of things. The add-ins from other classes could have been replaced by much better class features (on a whim, I'd give the class some animal version of leadership that grants some "pack magic"/"pack synergies" where if your "pack" is nearby, you get some fast healing, or damage reduction, or some other kind of supernatural benefit), and the chimeric abilities could have been rolled into a single ability with a more imaginative capstone.Weird that you guys are still discussing damage output when most of us seem to agree that it's serviceable-but-not-great as-is for damage and that EVERYTHING ELSE is the real problem.It's basically getting to the stage where everyone had their say about how poorly this class is put together and now where we're getting to the number crunching and finding that it's still a poor class to play on top of the lack of versatility.
I don't think damage would be that big of issue if you had a greater flexibility with the forms at least because then you can change into a form that makes Shifter Claws a non issue.
Personally I think you should change the shifter in one of two ways. Both have wild shape act like the druid's.
First idea is to have the aspects each grant bonuses and abilities as you level. No minor or major form and have them act all day. They stack with wild shape and the chimeric aspect abilities let you combine aspects. Aspects can let you fly, swim, sneak, etc.
Second idea is to ditch aspects and on the odd levels you select universal monster abilities(including movement options) you can use. You can modify some monster abilities to scale in some way with level to make them unique. Chimeric aspect lets you use multiple monster abilities at the same time. At later levels instead of monster abilities you can take abilities that modify your wild shape like a improved elemental form, the ability to turn into magical beasts, dragon, or vermin. Of course there'd be limitations like having to take the dragon one three times to get huge dragon.
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Personally I think you should change the shifter in one of two ways. Both have wild shape act like the druid's.
First idea is to have the aspects each grant bonuses and abilities as you level. No minor or major form and have them act all day. They stack with wild shape and the chimeric aspect abilities let you combine aspects. Aspects can let you fly, swim, sneak, etc.
Second idea is to ditch aspects and on the odd levels you select universal monster abilities(including movement options) you can use. You can modify some monster abilities to scale in some way with level to make them unique. Chimeric aspect lets you use multiple...
I think it goes without saying that the shifter's wild shape ability needs to be changed for the better. I think that there's an elegant way to do it that adds something truly new to the shifter class rather than grabbing abilities from other places. But, so long as it's better, I suppose that's the important thing.
Best wishes!
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Ah, that must be an error with Hero Lab (which is where I usually do my proofing).
Yeah... from all the errors I've heard about, I'd personally never use Hero Lab, especially not to proofread anything.
But, as mentioned, combat is the least of the Shifter's worries. It'll perform well enough to get by.The problem is that the other stuff that is supposed to balance out it only being good enough is massively restricted to the point you can't afford to use it. I've said it before and I'll say it again: 3 or 4 bonus feats and at-will Wild Shape would fix most of my concerns with the base class*. Bonus feats would ease the many feats needed as a martial class, and at-will Wild Shape would allow the Shifter to switch between forms to deal with situations as is intended for the class rather than trying to remain in your combat form as long as possible.
With Shifter, you have:
Elementalist Shifter which only ever shapeshifts for alternate movement speeds because while the flavour texts says they can shapeshift to fight in powerful Elemental forms, their main class ability, Elemental Strike, is intentionally prevented from working while under ANY kind of polymorph effect and the elemental forms have only single Slam attack and don't even get the basic ability score and natural armour increases that the base Shifter's Wild Shape gives. Furthermore, two of the four minor forms have identical benefits, meaning Air and Fire don't stack.
Fiendflesh Shifter, the nature-disregarding, Druid-despised, Evil-only Shifters which still must respect nature, maintain a Neutral alignment component, and know Druidic. They're also weaker than the base Shifter, have almost zero choice, and their transformation only lasts 3 + level MINUTES per day.
The Oozemorph. Being an ooze also should be the main draw of the archetype (that ooze base form definitely was it for me) rather than a confirmed intentional punishment for choosing the archetype.
The Rageshaper, which can't use items, has absolutely terrible AC, has to make a Will save to turn off its transformation, has a Slam replacement for Shifter Claws that doesn't bypass any DR (appropriately named Terrible Slam), and has a weak transformation that lasts ROUNDS PER DAY EQUAL TO CLASS LEVEL.
Verdant Shifter which-- AGAIN! ROUNDS PER DAY WEAKER WILD SHAPE!
Weretouched Shifter, which essentially lasts 5 levels before you take the rest of your levels in Fighter. Probably the most useful archetype.
And, lastly, the Ghoran-only Leafshifter, which would be okay if it weren't exclusive to a race that doesn't mesh particularly well with Shifter and didn't swap out the animal-specific Aspect Minor Forms for flexible but far weaker aspects you will almost never use because they mostly only grant tiny buffs to physical movement skills and CMB/CMD. At least one of them grants Darkvision to a race that doesn't normally get any special vision...
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If we're gonna discuss fixes , mine can be found here. It actually does several of the things just mentioned.
It lacks simplicity, sadly, but I'm pretty happy with it.
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If we're gonna discuss fixes , mine can be found here. It actually does several of the things just mentioned.
It lacks simplicity, sadly, but I'm pretty happy with it.
I think the shifter (as presented by Paizo) suffers from an overabundance of simplicity.
I actually like quite a few of the features of your Shifter fix. It does grant some more utility than Paizo's version of the class does. I'd tweak a few things, but overall, it's a pretty solid fix.
Best wishes!
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Generally speaking, just aesthetically "your attacks benefit from both strength and dexterity" is preferable to "I have a Dex of 20 so I add +10 to damage even though I have a strength of 5".
I agree. Which makes it kind of frustrating to me that all of these abilities are tied to class features.
Seems to be a tendency Paizo has, where they take a general problem and solve it with something that's limited in scope to a specfic class or archetype. It's great if you're a vigilante or shifter or fighter, but for every other class in the game the solution doesn't exist.
Sort of a tangent, but feels relevant to an extent because the Shifter is in a similar boat. General problem (polymorphing is too bookkeeping heavy for some groups) with a specific solution (a brand new class). Great if you happen to like the specific thing the Shifter does. Not helpful if you're interested in any other type of polymorphing.
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I think the shifter (as presented by Paizo) suffers from an overabundance of simplicity.
Oh, agreed. I find the Shifter extremely dull. My whole point has only and entirely that it was as mechanically valid as most martials, not that it sounded that fun.
I actually like quite a few of the features of your Shifter fix. It does grant some more utility than Paizo's version of the class does. I'd tweak a few things, but overall, it's a pretty solid fix.
Best wishes!
Thanks! I tried to stick with the thematic hints we got pre-release that people liked and do something very distinct from Druid, which seems like a good direction to go in to make the Class its own thing.
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I just realized that post-nerf, Shifter's Edge won't work with builds that use DEX to damage. Lethal Grace says you must use STR to damage.
Locked. Key has been thrown beyond 5th range increment.
It's not all that bad. 6 attacks for +25 to hit and +22 damage a piece (plus dice) or so isn't nothing, and is doable with Dex 28, an Agile AoMF +3, and Piranha Strike alone. Well, and Falcon form.
I see your BAB 15, +9 dex, -4 Piranha, +2 size, +3 AoMF = +25 to hit; but I get +9dmg from DEX 28, +8dmg from Piranha Strike, and +3dmg from AoMF +3 = total 20dmg plus dice. What am I missing?
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I see your BAB 15, +9 dex, -4 Piranha, +2 size, +3 AoMF = +25 to hit; but I get +9dmg from DEX 28, +8dmg from Piranha Strike, and +3dmg from AoMF +3 = total 20dmg plus dice. What am I missing?I just realized that post-nerf, Shifter's Edge won't work with builds that use DEX to damage. Lethal Grace says you must use STR to damage.
Locked. Key has been thrown beyond 5th range increment.
It's not all that bad. 6 attacks for +25 to hit and +22 damage a piece (plus dice) or so isn't nothing, and is doable with Dex 28, an Agile AoMF +3, and Piranha Strike alone. Well, and Falcon form.
Y'know, I honestly thought we were talking 16th level, not 15th (which would make the Piranha Strike -5/+10 but add a point of BAB, thus totaling what I listed). You're right that at 15th it's +20 assuming Dex 28 (though you can get Dex higher than that).
My bad.
Still, 6 attacks at +25 for that much damage is nothing to sneeze at. It isn't the highest damage ever, but it's not bad.
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It's not like the Swashbuckler where you're *supposed* to build a dex-based character.
.. but a strength based no charisma brute works better
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I just realized something: the Shifter is the absolute worst martial to play if you get stuck in an Antimagic field. Look at it. All of its abilities (including its weapons!) are (Su), which means you're as screwed as a Wizard if you get stuck without magic (at least the Wizard has a familiar).
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Still, 6 attacks at +25 for that much damage is nothing to sneeze at. It isn't the highest damage ever, but it's not bad.
Not completely bad, but not as good as other martials I think... Swashbucklers can have similar dex so you'd get 3 attacks at +8dmg from DEX 26, +8dmg from Piranha Strike with effortless lace, and +3dmg from weapon, +3 swashbuckler training class feature and +15 from swashbuckler level via Precise Strike class feature = total small rapier 1d4 + 22 (15-20/x2) plus 15 precision (plus 30 precision if you spend a panache point) plus 8 points of ongoing bleed damage per round. I'm not even counting weapon specialization and countless other buffs, or the fact that wild shape cancels your armor and shield... (that would have been one cool class feature for the shifter: keep armor and shield bonuses... I get why a full divine caster like druid could lose it, as wild shaping is not their main schtick at high levels, but for a full BAB class this is just stupid). For my swashbuckler example iteratives decrease in attack power but it's not so much a problem given the swashbuckler focus on one weapon (weapon focus, weapon enchants, spells, etc.) There's also a sea of variety available to weapon users. Unlike shifter which is pretty much dependent on the amulet for anything, which in my case anyhow, increase the boring level of the class. There's really nothing good about the shifter compared to existing classes: it brings nothing to the table. I think they should re-issue the PDF with a retooled class down the road. Too late to put the book back in the printer, but thanks to Paizo's PDF setup, a revamping of the class would be doable.
I just realized something: the Shifter is the absolute worst martial to play if you get stuck in an Antimagic field. Look at it. All of its abilities (including its weapons!) are (Su), which means you're as screwed as a Wizard if you get stuck without magic (at least the Wizard has a familiar).
The Shifter has full BAB (and likely owns a Dagger, possibly a Scimitar, maybe even Masterwork versions) and probably some armour, at least. Defensive Instinct is Extraordinary, so that still functions. Power Attack is also likely.
The Wizard has 1/2 BAB and a Familiar he doesn't want dead or a bonded item which doesn't work. But yeah, you're right that it's not all that much.
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With those creating builds, remember that wild shape is a polymorph effect, which can not be stacked with any other polymorph effects.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
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I just brought the PDF cause not knowing what y’all were talking about was driving me mad, I’ve made a couple (one base one ooze) and would like to add my thoughts to the conversation.
Ooze morph
Let’s start with the negatives.
-This is not a class I would like to play before level 4, it takes being the big dumb fighter standing quietly in the corner to the next level before that point. Being able to talk and be a humanoid for 1 hour a day is just doesn’t sound fun to me.
-There isn’t enough information about the Ooze form. I’m assuming you maintain your base speed, but we don’t explicitly know this. I can see this causing table friction.
-AC, having DR slashing is nice but unless you make a heavy Dex build it is very difficult to have decent AC for the Ooze Morph. My suggestion would be to have the DR in Ooze form and have dimished DR (perhaps half) in your humanoid form, with Wis to AC or that scaling bonus from defensive instinct
Now with the positive, despite the above I did actually love this archetype.
-being able to form natural weapons in human form is awesome, it actually gives me an image of the liquid metal terminator from terminator two
-Maintaining your DR and compression ability really helps you feel as though you’re still an Ooze Morph
-Compression is general is such a fun and niche power in general
-The Ooze form, I actually think that it sounds pretty fun squishing round as an Ooze some of the time. Pretending to be puddles and such, hiding on the roof. All that stuff, just seems you’re too tied to it in the first levels.
Base Shifter
Let me start by saying this class did not feel nice to build, I set out not wanting to use pounce because I think that’s its one obvious trick and I wanted to see if it could do anything else other than pounce.
To address wild shape, whilst I can see why some people would be disappointed I don’t actually think the limited wild shape is a problem. It doesn’t fit some people’s fantasy I know, who wanted to be morphing from one form to another At the drop of a hat but I actually think having specialised forms is a very kewl idea.
Now to the specific criticism.
- Dex Pounce is overtuned. In light armour you have, Dex, Wis, scaling Ac bonus, I haven’t run the numbers but I think the AC is gonna be high. Add to that Pounce, with PA, Shifters edge, Rend and I fail to see any other build is going to compete. Especially trying to go strength based.
- Not enough feats, this only makes the above problem greater, trying to do something interesting with your combat is almost impossible due to lack of feats and proficiencies. For instance I tried to take advantage of Snake minor aspect bonuses as they compliment Snake style beautifully, but the amount of feats required makes doing that difficult.
Honestly feat every 3rd Level, or perhaps free style feats you have the animal form would really help this a lot. Or the ability to ignore there pre reqs.
- Dipping is too painful, seriously 1 dip and you lose a 5th of your utility and get some nasty delays.
- Minor form durations, seriously why aren’t they at will? What would it brake to make them at will, I suspect little.
In the end I basically decided I didn’t really like the base Shifter very much at most levels, where-as I’d loved to play the Ooze Morph from Level 4 onwards.
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Not completely bad, but not as good as other martials I think... Swashbucklers can have similar dex so you'd get 3 attacks at +8dmg from DEX 26, +8dmg from Piranha Strike with effortless lace, and +3dmg from weapon, +3 swashbuckler training class feature and +15 from swashbuckler level via Precise Strike class feature = total small rapier 1d4 + 22 (15-20/x2) plus 15 precision (plus 30 precision if you spend a panache point) plus 8 points of ongoing bleed damage per round. I'm not even counting weapon specialization and countless other buffs, or the fact that wild shape cancels your armor and shield... (that would have been one cool class feature for the shifter: keep armor and shield bonuses... I get why a full divine caster like druid could lose it, as wild shaping is not their main schtick at high levels, but for a full BAB class this is just stupid). For my swashbuckler example iteratives decrease in attack power but it's not so much a problem given the swashbuckler focus on one weapon (weapon focus, weapon enchants, spells, etc.) There's also a sea of variety available to weapon users. Unlike shifter which is pretty much dependent on the amulet for anything, which in my case anyhow, increase the boring level of the class.
Well, with three attacks, assuming all hit and she has Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization (which are pretty much the only bonuses the Swashbuckler gets you didn't count, IMO) it has something like +28/+23/+18 to hit for 1d4+26+15. That's a total of 130.5 damage or so, ignoring misses and crits.
The Shifter mentioned, assuming 1d4 natural attacks (they actually vary quite a bit), averages 135 ignoring misses and crits.
Now, the Swashbuckler will crit a lot more, and only miss slightly more, and may well get extra attacks with Riposte...but also lacks fly speed 90 with perfect maneuverability, or several other cool things.
My point was never that Shifter was great. Merely that it was adequate. Which I stand by. It's dull as dishwater, mind you, but adequate.
There's really nothing good about the shifter compared to existing classes: it brings nothing to the table. I think they should re-issue the PDF with a retooled class down the road. Too late to put the book back in the printer, but thanks to Paizo's PDF setup, a revamping of the class would be doable.
Sadly (and I do mean that, I'm, as repeatedly stated, not a fan of Shifter), this is pretty much just not gonna happen. Paizo just doesn't do this with their books under any circumstances.
Bodhizen, in light of your analysis, I would like to cross check my estimate that an Oozemorph could keep up with a Barbarian for damage output ( http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uq38&page=13?More-Taste-Less-Filling-The-s hifter-Any-good#650 ).
Assuming the Oozemorph is sing Morphic weapons and a morningstar as his longsword equivalent (simple 1 handed melee weapon) when appropriate. He is also u where appropriate
1st Level
Oozemorph: (no alter self) +5/+5 attack bonus, 1d6+4/1d6+4 damage, 14 average damage per round. (with alter self +2 Str from being medium) +6/+6 attack bonus, 1d6+5/1d6+5 damage, 15 average damage per round. (with alter self and morningStar) +6/+1/+1, 1d8+5/1d6+2/1d6+2, 20.5 average damage per round.
6th level (you are at 18 hrs/day alter self) (can get multiattack at this level, but won't be included as we are not inlcluding other classes feats either)
Oozemorph: (no alter self) +10/+10/+10 attack bonus, 1d6+4/1d6+4/1d6+4 damage, 21.5 average damage per round. (with alter self +2 Str from being medium) +11/+11/+11 attack bonus, 1d6+5/1d6+5/1d6+5 damage, 25.5 average damage per round. (with alter self and morning Star) +11/+6/+6/+6/+6, 1d8+5/1d8+5/1d6+2/1d6+2/1d6+2, 35.5 average damage per round.11th level: (Oozemorph is transformed 24/7 if they want, typically into a chimpanzee/orangutan for reach with hands)
(Morphic Weapons Only, Beastshape I) +16/+16/+16 attack, 1d6+5/1d6+5/1d6+5 damage, 25.5 average damage per round. (beastshape I and morningstar) +16/+11/+11/+11+11/+6, 1d8+5/1d8+5/1d6+2/1d6+2/1d6+2/1d8+5, 45 average damage per round.16th level
(Morphic Weapons only, Giantform I) +23/+23/+23/+23 attack, 1d6+7/1d6+7/1d6+7/1d6+7 damage, 42 average damage per round. (Giantform I and morningstar) +23/+18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+8 1d8+7/1d8+7/1d6+3/1d6+3/1d6+3/1d6+3/1d8+7/1d8+7, 72 average damage per round.He beats a raging barbarian pretty soundly at all levels. The only people he doesn't keep up with are people using 1 target smites (although you have badly underestimated the swashbuckler by choosing a weapon that doesn't get it level to damage on attacks - say a rapier... he won't keep up with that either).
It's D before H, and here's my analysis.
Note: This is the damage output of an oozemorph that isn't using the fluid form class ability, since my analysis (from earlier) assumes no rage powers.
1st Level: Morphic Weapons +5/+5, 1d6+6/1d6+6 (Average damage/round = 19) Best damage output.
6th Level: Morphic Weapons +11/+11/+11, 1d6+7/1d6+7/1d6+7 (Average damage/round = 31.5) Best damage output.
11th Level: Morphic Weapons +15/+15/+15, 1d6+6/1d6+6/1d6+6 (Average damage/round = 28.5)
16th Level: Morphic Weapons +20/+20/+20/+20, 1d6+6/1d6+6/1d6+6/1d6+6 (Average damage/round = 38)
Note: This is without the benefit of any rage powers.
1st Level: (no rage) Morningstar +5, 1d8+4 (Average damage/round = 8.5) (with rage) +7, 1d8+6 (Average damage/round = 10.5)
6th Level: (no rage) Morningstar +10/+5, 1d8+4/1d8+4 (Average damage/round = 15) (with rage) +12/+7, 1d8+6/1d8+6 (Average damage/round = 21)
11th Level: (no rage) Morningstar +15/+10/+5, 1d8+4/1d8+4/1d8+4 (Average damage/round = 25.5) (with rage) +18/+13/+8, 1d8+7/1d8+7/1d8+7 (Average damage/round = 34.5) Best damage output.
16th Level: (no rage) Morningstar +20/+15/+10/+5, 1d8+4/1d8+4/1d8+4/1d8+4 (Average damage/round = 34) (with rage) +23/+18/+13/+8, 1d8+7/1d8+7/1d8+7 (Average damage/round = 46) Best damage output.
Then you can add in rage powers.
Note: This assumes that the barbarian will front-load on round 1. Subsequent rounds may deal less damage.
1st Level: (no rage) Morningstar +5, 1d8+4 (Average damage/round = 8.5) (with rage) +7, 1d8+6 (Average damage/round = 10.5) The oozemorph has better damage output.
6th Level: (no rage) Morningstar +10/+5, 1d8+4/1d8+4 (Average damage/round = 15) (with rage; powers: lesser elemental blood [electricity], lesser elemental rage, lesser infernal blood) +12/+7, 1d8+6+1d6 fire+1d6 electricity+1d6 acid/1d8+6+1d6 fire+1d6 electricity+1d6 acid (Average damage/round = 42) The barbarian has better damage output.
11th Level: (no rage) Morningstar +15/+10/+5, 1d8+4/1d8+4/1d8+4 (Average damage/round = 25.5) (with rage; powers: lesser elemental blood [electricity], lesser elemental rage, lesser infernal blood, crag linnorm death curse, elemental rage) +18/+13/+8, 1d8+7+1d6 fire+1 fire+2d6 electricity+1d6 acid/1d8+7+1d6 fire+1 fire+2d6 electricity+1d6 acid/1d8+7+1d6 fire+1 fire+2d6 electricity+1d6 acid (Average damage/round = 79.5) The barbarian has better damage output.
16th Level: You get the idea. The barbarian has better damage output.
Basically, if you're including rage powers, you can raise your damage output higher than that of an oozemorph using their fluid form ability, at least in initial rounds. So, it's really a matter of taste at this point. Most battles are going to be ended within the first few rounds
Best wishes!
Don't wanna derail but it's been bugging me. What's with the weapon choices for the Barbarian here?
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Now, the Swashbuckler will crit a lot more, and only miss slightly more, and may well get extra attacks with Riposte...but also lacks fly speed 90 with perfect maneuverability, or several other cool things.
Does he though? at 15th level? my 7th level swashbuckler just destroyed an entire underwater temple of skum last week via cloak of the manta ray with his rapier hand sticking out of his manta form, like some angry mithral narwhal... it was glorious. The shifter would have dipped his toe in the water and found the water too cold...
And about a recall of Ultimate Wilderness: why not? companies recall stuff sometimes. In this case it's just the PDF that would need a revamp.
Recalling the book would be absurd, since there's tons of great stuff in it, it's just that the dozen or so pages devoted to the Shifter aren't the best stuff in the book.
We can get on just fine playing Green Knight Cavaliers, Venomfist Brawlers, Terrakineticists, Stormwalker Rangers, etc. without those dozen pages. Just like how the Medium not living up to the potential of the concept doesn't discourage anybody from playing Occultists, Mesmerists, Kineticists, Spiritualists, and Psychics.
Realistically, if they were to "fix" the shifter, it would be through archetypes, feats, and class options printed in later books, like how the Qinggong, Sohei, Tetori, and Zen Archer improved the core monk.
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It's possible, PossibleG. Very possible. Mediums are a bit of a fail and they've been forgotten on account of other cool classes in that same book. However Shifter is the only new class in this gastric mess of a book. If Vigilante would have appeared half done like this I'm not sure what kind of mess it would have caused, based on the flak they got for the hulk class alone...
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ACG? those classes are great!
This is not a universal opinion, and more importantly was a distinct minority opinion right after the book came out. Also, the ACG's editing was notably sub-par.
The outcry was at least as bad as this outcry over the Shifter is...and they still didn't recall anything. So it's pretty unlikely they'd change that policy at this point.
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ACG? those classes are great!
And yet, there are some 30 pages of errata to that book which render my first printing dead tree edition essentially useless. I'm still somewhat annoyed by the ACG, but even if I never play a Shifter, never use a Shifter NPC, never run a game with a Shifter PC, never sit next to another player using a Shifter, or never participate in a discussion I enjoy about the Shifter, etc. I still feel like I got my money's worth with Ultimate Wilderness, an opinion I do *not* have about the ACG.
The Shifter is like 12 pages out of a 250ish page book. Paizo could have spent those 12 pages personally insulting me instead of a new class, and I don't think a recall would be warranted given the remaining pages.
UW's inevitably going to get an errata document too though.
I mean, yeah, but specifying what elements the elemantalist gets and fixing the Oozemorph teaching druidic loophole, and making the treestrider choosing their animal companion no longer a free action for some reason aren't going to invalidate huge portions of the book like was the case with the ACG.
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And defining the Oozemorph's base form. And giving the Owl Major Form a fly speed. And removing the Druid/Shifter restrictions from the Fiendflesh Shifter. And making Gathlain Fey. And fixing the fact that a Tree Soul Oracle only gets 4 class skills because they forgot the word "alters".
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Realistically, if they were to "fix" the shifter, it would be through archetypes, feats, and class options printed in later books, like how the Qinggong, Sohei, Tetori, and Zen Archer improved the core monk.
The Qinggong would probably be the best model for improving the Shifter, in that its improvements were released in one archetype, but each individual change was isolated from the rest, essentially making every Monk a Qinggong Monk. Just make a Shifter archetype that has an alternative for literally every single existing Shifter class feature and whatever the player feels doesn’t need switching out (or whatever needs to stay where it is to be compatible with whichever other archetype you’re trying to also use) just stays where it is.
The second best fix I think would be an Unchained Shifter.