How Powerful Would You Say Wyrwood Are?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


For those of you unsure what these are link: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/advanced-races-11-20-r p/wyrwood-20-rp

Summery, they are constructs with +2Int +2Dex -2Cha. They are listed as 20RP. Now while that sounds really OP, me and some of my group talked it over and we kind figured its really not THAT powerful all things considered. Playing a Wyrwood, is completely different especially with the semi-permanent damage. Compared to what some of the other races can do we decoded it was not wholly out of the ball park for a normal game. But I would like to get some second options, however, before you just start mashing your keys with perfect scenarios where this is outrageously OP I encourage you to really think about how much you lose and gain as an individual character from this not just mechanics.

Pros:
+10 HP per level.

Can be modified by craft construct.

Immunity to a lot of annoying stats.

No massive damage death

You can sacrifice Darkvison for some early healing (very situational since your balancing early vs late game pay off but still nice)

Cons:
They cannot be healed by anything other than 2 spells the lowest being second level. Also they are still damaged by negative energy.

They are dead dead at 0, no bleed out saves, no friend making a heroic rescue to drag your unconscious body out, just dead. (Think about how often this happens even to the most paranoid back line caster)

Can only be resurrected with Wish or Miracle.

You can be 100% dominated by control construct or similar effects with no save. (Still a caster level check but that's still really bad for you)

Several adventures and modules / random gear rolls will have treasure you simply can't use.

You have limited class selection due to lack of Con. (Prim Example Barbarians)

You similarly do not have access to any feats involving Con. (Not as big a deal but worth noting)

Liberty's Edge

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They can usually be resurrected with Memory of Function. 10 000 GP worth of powdered skymetal, along with a 7th level spell, but a bit better than requiring wish/miracle.


Deighton Thrane wrote:
They can usually be resurrected with Memory of Function. 10 000 GP worth of powdered skymetal, along with a 7th level spell, but a bit better than requiring wish/miracle.

Didn't know about that one. That's at least a little cheaper. Still 7th level spell.


they really arnt, paizo just overvalues different creature types in the race creator


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Small correction: Wyrwoods get +10 HP total, not per level.


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Looks like Ultimate Magic (Control Construct) forgot to take into account Constructs that have no master.

Anyway, the Race Points system is really broken(*), although at least for Wyrwoods the single cause of the high Race Point rating is obvious: the Construct type (20 RP). Wyrwoods have no particular other advantages, except for having normal movement speed on Small size.

(*)For instance, Suli are rated at 16 RP while the other Elemental-touched races are rated at 6 RP or 7 RP, but NO WAY are Suli 2X better than the other Elemental-touched races, and I'd say that Dwarves, rated at 11 RP, are actually better than Suli as long as you aren't making something Charisma-dependent. Similarly, Svirfneblin are rated at 28 RP, and they're good, but not THAT good.

However, the healing situation for Wyrwoods (and other Constructs, except for Golems) may be slightly better than you think. Due to a colossal mischaracterization (inherited from D&D 3.x) of healing spells as Conjuration (healing) rather than Necromancy (which would put you out of luck for being a Construct), Infernal Healing (which is 1st level) (and its Greater version, which is 4th level), which does not have the Cure-series spell's text requiring a "living creature", will work on a Wyrwood, since Constructs (and Undead, for that matter) can benefit from Fast Healing, and Infernal Healing grants temporary Fast Healing. The same is true for Celestial Healing (and its Greater version), except that Celestial Healing is inferior unless the effect caster level is at least 20 (because its duration is dependent upon caster level instead of being fixed). Just check with your GM first, because Rules As Intended, this probably shouldn't work, but Rules As Written, it does. (And this is another argument for putting all of the Conjuration (Healing) spells back in Necromancy, where they belong.)


Dαedαlus wrote:

Small correction: Wyrwoods get +10 HP total, not per level.

Which is part of why they can be very risky. It is a nice amount at level 1, but by level 20 it is less than what you would get from con 12. And that is all that stands between you and getting turned into scrap once you hit 0 hp.

They are nice as somewhat expendable allies if you find some way to get them (due to all the immunities), but I wouldn't play one because of the health/death risk.


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Dαedαlus wrote:

Small correction: Wyrwoods get +10 HP total, not per level.

Wow, well I thought that they got a little innate tankyness to make up for the instant death thing. That sucks.


Alchemist 23 wrote:
Dαedαlus wrote:

Small correction: Wyrwoods get +10 HP total, not per level.

Wow, well I thought that they got a little innate tankyness to make up for the instant death thing. That sucks.

ya at 1st i thought constructs got the bonus hp at every level and though constructs are pretty great then found out constructs get it once at level one and was like wow constructs suck


lemeres wrote:
Dαedαlus wrote:

Small correction: Wyrwoods get +10 HP total, not per level.

Which is part of why they can be very risky. It is a nice amount at level 1, but by level 20 it is less than what you would get from con 12. And that is all that stands between you and getting turned into scrap once you hit 0 hp.

They are nice as somewhat expendable allies if you find some way to get them (due to all the immunities), but I wouldn't play one because of the health/death risk.

You know this is making me really want to play a Wyrwood Archlord of Nex. Especially if I could get the GM to let me mod myself without another Construct Crafting person. (RAW you can but GM).

Heart: This upgrade permits a golem to receive half the benefits of magical healing and provides a hit point bonus as if the golem had a Constitution score of 12, but the construct does not gain a Constitution score in this process. Negative energy spells cast upon the golem can affect the heart, causing it to cease functioning for the duration of the effect (or 1 round for instantaneous effects). If the spell has a save, the heart uses the golem’s saving throws.


Alchemist 23 wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Dαedαlus wrote:

Small correction: Wyrwoods get +10 HP total, not per level.

Which is part of why they can be very risky. It is a nice amount at level 1, but by level 20 it is less than what you would get from con 12. And that is all that stands between you and getting turned into scrap once you hit 0 hp.

They are nice as somewhat expendable allies if you find some way to get them (due to all the immunities), but I wouldn't play one because of the health/death risk.

You know this is making me really want to play a Wyrwood Archlord of Nex. Especially if I could get the GM to let me mod myself without another Construct Crafting person. (RAW you can but GM).

Heart: This upgrade permits a golem to receive half the benefits of magical healing and provides a hit point bonus as if the golem had a Constitution score of 12, but the construct does not gain a Constitution score in this process. Negative energy spells cast upon the golem can affect the heart, causing it to cease functioning for the duration of the effect (or 1 round for instantaneous effects). If the spell has a save, the heart uses the golem’s saving throws.

the heart is a garbage modification, it gets destroyed when you are hit with a single crit and costs way to much, your better off buying racial hit die


more powerful than standard races (CRB), less powerful than a drow.

I've played an (undead)ghoul wizard Mordiggian in 3.5 and they have similar issues, along with many clerics that can destroy them. The fall down dead at 0hp IS an issue as that 10-14 pt buffer you usually have went away. You rely on magic items to make up the difference and that means the characters require more resources than usual. The upside is durability verses conditions, poisons, diseases, and simple environmental issues.
Another thing is Disguise as you want your type/race not to be generally known.


In the cons list I think you missed out "no morale bonuses". This is pretty significant for some classes (eg barbarian) or when you're in a party with bards or enchanter types.

Overall, I could be missing something, but they don't look that powerful as PCs. Immune to a ton of nasty things is good, but specifically weak against HP damage is... well... I wouldn't stat one for melee, let's put it like that. Wizard or some sort of archer and retreat if things got hairy, that's how I'd play that.

Cool minion to build and have on your team in a high-level game, though.


.


They are not powerful as such, they are a beast to GM for in an average game. A boatload of encounter altering immunities together with easy to just inadvertently kill vulnerability makes balancing encounters more of a chore than I (and I know I'm not alone) am prepared to deal with.


Memory of Function looks like it is intended for Constructs with class levels.
Before Memory of Function came out, you could fix destroyed Constructs with Greatet Make Whole.

Greater Make Whole wrote:
Greater Make Whole can fix destroyed magic items.
Construct Traits wrote:
Immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points or less.

There is no text that says memories are lost when destroyed.

Remember that Constructs are not living things. That is why they cannot be raised or resurrected. They need to be fixed.


Dr Styx wrote:

Memory of Function looks like it is intended for Constructs with class levels.

Before Memory of Function came out, you could fix destroyed Constructs with Greatet Make Whole.

Greater Make Whole wrote:
Greater Make Whole can fix destroyed magic items.
Construct Traits wrote:
Immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points or less.

There is no text that says memories are lost when destroyed.

Remember that Constructs are not living things. That is why they cannot be raised or resurrected. They need to be fixed.

Wow that actually changes a lot since that's only a 4ht level. You could get a wand of that and just have the cleric carry it for when you bite it.


Dr Styx wrote:

Memory of Function looks like it is intended for Constructs with class levels.

Before Memory of Function came out, you could fix destroyed Constructs with Greatet Make Whole.

Greater Make Whole wrote:
Greater Make Whole can fix destroyed magic items.
Construct Traits wrote:
Immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points or less.

There is no text that says memories are lost when destroyed.

Remember that Constructs are not living things. That is why they cannot be raised or resurrected. They need to be fixed.

Constructs are monsters, not magic items. You can't use Greater Make Whole on them to bring them back from "death" any more than you can use Mage's Disjunction to destroy/kill one.


Xenocrat wrote:
Constructs are monsters, not magic items. You can't use Greater Make Whole on them to bring them back from "death" any more than you can use Mage's Disjunction to destroy/kill one.

Well of course there Magic Items, they are created with the same techniques.

Construct Traits wrote:
A construct is an animated object or artificially created creature
animated object wrote:
Magic-users can create permanent animated objects in one of two ways, either by using the animate objects spell in conjunction with permanency, or by making use of the Craft Construct feat.

Figurines of Wondrous Power, are magic items, and would be treated as Constructs.

And an origami swarm says it’s a Construct.

origami swarm wrote:
These duplicates fill a 10-foot space and act as a rat swarm, except they have fire vulnerability, the construct type, and do not have the disease special ability.

And Mage's Disjunction dose not “destroy/kill” Magic Items.

Mage's Disjunction wrote:
Each permanent magic item must make a successful Will save or be turned into a normal item for the duration of this spell.


Dr Styx wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Constructs are monsters, not magic items. You can't use Greater Make Whole on them to bring them back from "death" any more than you can use Mage's Disjunction to destroy/kill one.

Well of course there Magic Items, they are created with the same techniques.

Construct Traits wrote:
A construct is an animated object or artificially created creature
animated object wrote:
Magic-users can create permanent animated objects in one of two ways, either by using the animate objects spell in conjunction with permanency, or by making use of the Craft Construct feat.

Figurines of Wondrous Power, are magic items, and would be treated as Constructs.

And an origami swarm says it’s a Construct.

origami swarm wrote:
These duplicates fill a 10-foot space and act as a rat swarm, except they have fire vulnerability, the construct type, and do not have the disease special ability.

And Mage's Disjunction dose not “destroy/kill” Magic Items.

Mage's Disjunction wrote:
Each permanent magic item must make a successful Will save or be turned into a normal item for the duration of this spell.

Well, no.

And

Mage's Disjunction wrote:
You can also use this spell to target a single item. The item gets a Will save at a –5 penalty to avoid being permanently destroyed.


They are described as "purely rational and unemotional" which arguably makes them unable to use Emotion Components for Psychic Magic.

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