Dispel magic does not allow for spell resistance and can target creatures and magical items, of which golems are both. Does that mean a successful dispel check against the golem's caster level can shut it down (make it helpless) for 1d4 rounds?
Whatever answer you provide, please provide support for it.
I don't think it works that way, since golems are not defeated by an anti magic field. I would rule that dispel magic can be part of deactivating a golem but there are no rules I am aware of for doing it.
Could houserule something like: A dispel attempt, if successful, gives the golem an equivalent of a negative level (ignoring the fat that golems are normally immune) plus an additional 1 for every five the caster level check was beat by. These would of course roll off just like a dispelled item regains it's properties.
Dispel magic does not allow for spell resistance and can target creatures and magical items, of which golems are both. Does that mean a successful dispel check against the golem's caster level can shut it down (make it helpless) for 1d4 rounds?
Whatever answer you provide, please provide support for it.
Constructs aren't magical items, anymore than undead are. They are considered creatures. As a result, they cannot be dispelled the same way magical items are.
As for support for my claim, I don't think there's anything in the rules that specifically states as much. However, the description for antimagic field states that constructs (unlike magic items) are self supporting after their construction and therefore are unaffected by the spell. Since dispel magic is in the same category of spells as antimagic field, I think it's pretty safe to claim that the designers never had any intention of using dispel magic to disable constructs.
Golems are creatures, not items, thus dispel magic has no effect on them.
Golems are creatures, not items, thus dispel magic has no effect on them.
I'm inclined to agree, but just to play devil's advocate, why aren't they ALSO considered items? They are created via a magical ITEM creation feat using the magical ITEM creation rules, are they not? There is no doubt that they are creatures (having a CREATURE type and all), but I submit that your stance is debatable.
Golems are creatures, not items, thus dispel magic has no effect on them.I'm inclined to agree, but just to play devil's advocate, why aren't they ALSO considered items? They are created via a magical ITEM creation feat using the magical ITEM creation rules, are they not? There is no doubt that they are creatures (having a CREATURE type and all), but I submit that your stance is debatable.
Creatures have creature types, Items don't.
Creatures have Hit Dice. Items don't.Creatures have BAB, Items don't.
Creatures have save throws, items don't (though they do have bonuses to saves).
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Golems are creatures, not items, thus dispel magic has no effect on them.I'm inclined to agree, but just to play devil's advocate, why aren't they ALSO considered items? They are created via a magical ITEM creation feat using the magical ITEM creation rules, are they not? There is no doubt that they are creatures (having a CREATURE type and all), but I submit that your stance is debatable.
Also, what about intelligent magic items? They can be shut-down. It seems odd that a (mostly) unintelligent golem is cannot be shut-down, but a super-intelligent sword can.
Also, what about intelligent magic items? They can be shut-down. It seems odd that a (mostly) unintelligent golem is cannot be shut-down, but a super-intelligent sword can.
Quiet, you! You're not helping. :-P
Also, what about intelligent magic items? They can be shut-down. It seems odd that a (mostly) unintelligent golem is cannot be shut-down, but a super-intelligent sword can.Golems are creatures, not items, thus dispel magic has no effect on them.I'm inclined to agree, but just to play devil's advocate, why aren't they ALSO considered items? They are created via a magical ITEM creation feat using the magical ITEM creation rules, are they not? There is no doubt that they are creatures (having a CREATURE type and all), but I submit that your stance is debatable.
Furthermore, aren't sentient items (in v3.5 at least) considered to have the construct CREATURE type?
There's also a precedent for it: Animated objects are considered creatures AND items simultaneously. Dispel magic works just fine on them, why not golems too?
(Again, don't really believe it, just playing the DA.)
Creative Director
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Golems are creatures, not items, thus dispel magic has no effect on them.I'm inclined to agree, but just to play devil's advocate, why aren't they ALSO considered items? They are created via a magical ITEM creation feat using the magical ITEM creation rules, are they not? There is no doubt that they are creatures (having a CREATURE type and all), but I submit that your stance is debatable.
The general rule is that if something has a monster type associated with it, it's a creature, never an item.
Dispel magic only works on animated objects that were animated by the spell animate objects. In this case, though, the dispel magic is affecting the SPELL, not the creature itself. It's a pretty subtle distinction, but it IS a distinction.
If someone were to create an animated object via Craft Construct or some other method, dispel magic wouldn't work at all.
I'm inclined to agree, but just to play devil's advocate, why aren't they ALSO considered items? They are created via a magical ITEM creation feat using the magical ITEM creation rules, are they not? There is no doubt that they are creatures (having a CREATURE type and all), but I submit that your stance is debatable.
Personally, I think if you want to house rule it that way, that's fine. It might even be fun. However, I think that arguing the point just for the sake of argument (particularly when one of the designers of the game tells you that's not how the spell was intended to work) is a bit of a waste of time.
Edit: Make that two designers.
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I'm inclined to agree, but just to play devil's advocate, why aren't they ALSO considered items? They are created via a magical ITEM creation feat using the magical ITEM creation rules, are they not? There is no doubt that they are creatures (having a CREATURE type and all), but I submit that your stance is debatable.Personally, I think if you want to house rule it that way, that's fine. It might even be fun. However, I think that arguing the point just for the sake of argument (particularly when one of the designers of the game tells you that's not how the spell was intended to work) is a bit of a waste of time.
Edit: Make that two designers.
A debate for the sake of debate is no more a waste of time than watching a television show. Unlike most television shows, however, debate gets people to think about the topic at hand. Thinking on intellectual mysteries is never a waste of time.
If nothing else, those two game designers now have some insight as to how gamers might come to understand the game's rules that they themselves write. That can only serve to make them better game designers. Again, not a waste of time. Hopefully this isn't a problem for you. I do it A LOT. :P
Hopefully this isn't a problem for you. I do it A LOT. :P
It's not a problem. It just seems like the D&D equivalent of asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Hopefully this isn't a problem for you. I do it A LOT. :PIt's not a problem. It just seems like the D&D equivalent of asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
:D
Most of the intellectual debates I start involve the game's rules or the interpretations thereof.
Golems are creatures, not items, thus dispel magic has no effect on them.
Golems are creatures, not items, thus dispel magic has no effect on them.I'm inclined to agree, but just to play devil's advocate, why aren't they ALSO considered items? They are created via a magical ITEM creation feat using the magical ITEM creation rules, are they not? There is no doubt that they are creatures (having a CREATURE type and all), but I submit that your stance is debatable.The general rule is that if something has a monster type associated with it, it's a creature, never an item.
Dispel magic only works on animated objects that were animated by the spell animate objects. In this case, though, the dispel magic is affecting the SPELL, not the creature itself. It's a pretty subtle distinction, but it IS a distinction.
If someone were to create an animated object via Craft Construct or some other method, dispel magic wouldn't work at all.
I also just wanted to thank the two game designers for being kind enough to answer my question. You guys never get enough credit for the things you do for all of us.
A couple of thoughts:
An animated object from the spell isn't a magical item or a creature actually... it's an item that has been animated by a spell -- it's a spell effect. Other than the fact it now moves it is still very much just an item. This is why dispel magic works on it.
Creatures have hit dice. This would be the biggest mechanical difference -- magical items don't have these ever. Items have hit points -- but not hit dice just like any other item.
I would point to these as being the major points to the questions asked. Hit Dice gives the construct even of it's own "whatever" to not be taken out by anti-magic of any flavor.
A couple of thoughts:
An animated object from the spell isn't a magical item or a creature actually... it's an item that has been animated by a spell -- it's a spell effect. Other than the fact it now moves it is still very much just an item. This is why dispel magic works on it.
Creatures have hit dice. This would be the biggest mechanical difference -- magical items don't have these ever. Items have hit points -- but not hit dice just like any other item.
I would point to these as being the major points to the questions asked. Hit Dice gives the construct even of it's own "whatever" to not be taken out by anti-magic of any flavor.
Don't animated objects have HD?
Don't animated objects have HD?
Hm... noticed that right after I posted, however, it's not a magical item so the rules still aren't broken... in fact it's only a creature so long as it is affected by the spell. It isn't permanent and only moves as long as something doesn't dispel the temporary spell... much along the same lines as the shrink item or magic chest spells (these object might radiate magic, but they are not magic in and of themselves, they have magic placed on them). While permanency might keep the spell going indefinitely these specific cases are fully covered by the spells in question (namely animate object *which is very much akin to the summon monster spells in many ways* and permanency).
Now even then my HD rule isn't violated since it's spell specific effects as opposed to a permanent creature or magical item.
Basically what I'm saying is the spell does what all spells do and "cheats" at creating a creature... since the spell has to still be in effect for the animated object to keep moving removing the spell stops the magic.
Constructs however are crafted, and not spell specific (i.e. they don't have a specific effect keeping them moving).