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The difference between Vengeance and Retribution is PR. Ragathiel's Paladins don't bother making it sound pretty. The work needs to get done, and bystanders don't have to like it.
I know! PR is so important.
I'm still having problems getting the local paladins to understand that my camps are "Mandatory Public Works Projects" and not, as they put it, slave labour camps...Sigh...
IRL references to back up ingame point of views are null and void.I can't really help it if the authors of the Pathfinder game have used the term but I can't see anything in the english definition of the word that strikes me as vengeance being a lawful act
Vengeance definition from Dictionary.com
1. infliction of injury, harm, humiliation, or the like, on a person by another who has been harmed by that person; violent revenge:
2. an act or opportunity of inflicting such trouble:
3. the desire for revenge:
4. Obsolete. hurt; injury.
5. Obsolete. curse; imprecation.
Erm, I'm backing up my own post, where I said revenge and vengeance are chaotic motivations as part of a post about how I GM Paladin characters to help make sure they fit in with a group game.
To reply to Rysky, seeking justice is not vengeance. With vengeance, the one seeking revenge is determining the punishment. With justice, the legal authority determines the appropriate punishment.
In game terms, it may be as simple as "I'm going to kill [the BBEG] for that" verses "As [God name] decrees, I will not rest until [the BBEG] has been sent to the Abyss for his crimes that I have witnessed". The first case is personal vengeance, but in the second the character is acting upon their God's authority.
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Also applies when your god actually ordains you executioner.
Ragathiel Celetial Obedience
Slay a proven wrongdoer in Ragathiel’s name.
Think about that. A god who has paladins, holds them to executing a proven evil doer per day. Delivering punishment is no Un-Paladin like behavior in the least.
A legal authority is getting justice by avenging the victim. That's still vengeance.
That is not true. The perpetrator is being punished for their misdeeds. What you are describing by linking justice and vengeance is closer to a kangaroo court. In some legal systems the victim has a say in the degree or form of punishment (e.g. financial payment to the victim's next of kin to commute a death sentence for murder) but ultimately the judge determines the punishment. There are many cases reported in the media where the judge's view of the severity of the punishment required because of what the perpetrator did does not match the victim's view of what the perpetrator deserved because of the impact it had. Were the victim being avenged then the punishment would fit the impact of the crime not the crime itself.
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If the perpetrator get's a light sentence then no but if they got a severe sentence then yes, the victim has been avenged. Vengeance has occurred even without any input from the victim or those close to them. Vengeance is not some completely separate concept from justice, justice comes from a need for vengeance.
If the perpetrator get's a light sentence then no but if they got a severe sentence then yes, the victim has been avenged. Vengeance has occurred even without any input from the victim or those close to them. Vengeance is not some completely separate concept from justice, justice comes from a need for vengeance.
Again not true. Legal codes arose out of a need to keep the peace. Without a legal code then a slight by one side would be avenged, which in turn would be avenged and so on until there was a feud. A court system provided an impartial body that would determine if a crime had been committed, guilt and the punishment to be delivered.
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Also applies when your god actually ordains you executioner.
Ragathiel Celetial Obedience
Slay a proven wrongdoer in Ragathiel’s name.Think about that. A god who has paladins, holds them to executing a proven evil doer per day. Delivering punishment is no Un-Paladin like behavior in the least.
I think its important to have the whole obedience presented here, as just the "Slay a proven wrongdoer in Ragathiel’s name", could lead pedants to, well find some interesting interpretations...I know I could.
The whole thing:
Slay a proven wrongdoer in Ragathiel’s name. It is not enough for the sacrifice to have an evil heart or evil intentions; the sacrifice must have committed evil or unlawful deeds.
Does a better job to specify obedience, however its still...hmmm...well open to some interpretation.
What exactly is considered "unlawful"? Are we just talking Lawful as in alignment (probably the most commonsense approach) or does it also include (or is just limited to) "unlawful" as in, "Laws of the land?"
Still if we say "unlawful" as in "Lawful" alignment-vise...it becomes, well weird and imprecise, because of difficulty of nailing down exact actions to the Law-Chaos axis.
If we go with the "Law of the land" interpretation...
Oh boy, I could make some crazy (and great) concepts out of that.
I mean, the first would simply be as a traveling executioner, taming the hinterlands with axe and noose.
On the other hand...
Questionable states have laws too, so you might find yourself manning a Final Blade in Galt.
There are spoiler tags...read it over a year ago cant remember what are you talking about and dont have books on me.Nah, I'm dead serious. I don't want to be too spoilery, but end of chapter 28 is definitely a falling offence.This better be a crazy good pun to the fight scene where he literally falls on a DenarianHeh. I was just thinking there's a sequence in Death Masks where if I were DMing Michael would totally have fallen.Considering Butcher is a gamer, and has explicitly stated he wrote Micheal to be the perfectly played paladin, I would agree with you. And so would Jim. :)
I had to go back and check on it because i had forgotten as well. Yeah is a grey moment where
This is a great moral moment because you know..greater good and such.
I had to go back and check on it because i had forgotten as well. Yeah is a grey moment where
** spoiler omitted **
This is a great moral moment because you know..greater good and such.
Further complicating the matter
Now I need to read those books again. Where's Peace Talks already?
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Justice is vengeance you outsource to a legal authority.
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And it's exactly following that reasoning that strikes me as a falling offence.
Further complicating the matter** spoiler omitted **
Interestingly his God in this setting (The author) obviously felt it wasn't so what happens when two lawful good gods disagre? Especially if their in a pantheon. God A says their paladin acted in accordance with their code and God B says they didn't when God B is say Odin and God A Thor?
By right answer, I mean one that preserves their Paladinhood. As GM, I am describing the game world to the players. Within that game world there are things the characters would know that the players may not. If the GM has engineered a scenario that requires the paladin to fall or kill their character then he's being a jerk and all the players should leave.
If the player asks about whether a specific action will cause their paladin to fall, I agree that a reasonable GM should tell them and not be a jerk.
I'm not sure what your opinion would be, but I think that a paladin can get put into morally grey situations and not know what to do. If I were the GM, so long as their intentions remained reasonably good, I'd probably not cause them to fall. Within reason.
What do you think about that?
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Justice is vengeance you outsource to a legal authority.
I'm keeping this.
@OP:
2 factors- 1) the fear of bad DMs forcing sadistic choices, & 2) a polarizing binary view of the alignment system which must punish all mistakes and completely subsides the context of any decision (which ironically is specifically called out in the rules)
The paladin code was quoted earlier in saying that a paladin can align with Evil or Chaotic characters, so long as there is a greater threat afoot. According to GNS theory, any narrative which includes a PC playing a paladin should facilitate this and this line of the code is more or less meant to be delegated to NPCs. At least that's how I GM.
Conversely, if we look at the Antipaladin code we then realize that the alignment system fully recognizes the intent of the player's choices and thus any sadistic choice forced upon the paladin should by definition never preclude a fall. Ever. It's in the rules, though it requires some anglicitical math to extrapolate.
Interestingly his God in this setting (The author) obviously felt it wasn't so what happens when two lawful good gods disagre? Especially if their in a pantheon. God A says their paladin acted in accordance with their code and God B says they didn't when God B is say Odin and God A Thor?And it's exactly following that reasoning that strikes me as a falling offence.
Further complicating the matter** spoiler omitted **
This is a great point. Some gods in PF have specific modifications to the paladin code (Archive in think has them) but thats a good point about certain deities allowing certain behaviors.
Also i wouldnt used Thor/Odin as the example, maybe Odin/Thor since they are different pantheons (i doubt Zeus has any LG paladins though)
I mean I wouldnt debate the little things at my table, not saying thats badwrongfun but i dont like strict weight limits or that kinda play. If people arent having fun then you should probably talk it out instead of brooding and hating a class. Sometimes the Paladin is being a pain in the ass Boy Scouts, sometimes the other PCs are being pain in the ass Murderhobos that are doing things just because they can.
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hmmm, it's like this has become an Alignment thread....
Hmm, it's like the Paladin is bound by an alignment.
Interestingly his God in this setting (The author) obviously felt it wasn't so what happens when two lawful good gods disagre?And it's exactly following that reasoning that strikes me as a falling offence.
Further complicating the matter** spoiler omitted **
If they disagree strongly enough? Holy war. Nothing like seeing two paladins trying to kill one another. People forget that "good" doesn't necessarily mean "on the same side"--good versus good (even LG versus LG) is not only possible but often far more interesting and tragic.
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Also applies when your god actually ordains you executioner.
Ragathiel Celetial Obedience
Slay a proven wrongdoer in Ragathiel’s name.Think about that. A god who has paladins, holds them to executing a proven evil doer per day. Delivering punishment is no Un-Paladin like behavior in the least.
I think its important to have the whole obedience presented here, as just the "Slay a proven wrongdoer in Ragathiel’s name", could lead pedants to, well find some interesting interpretations...I know I could.
The whole thing:
Slay a proven wrongdoer in Ragathiel’s name. It is not enough for the sacrifice to have an evil heart or evil intentions; the sacrifice must have committed evil or unlawful deeds.Does a better job to specify obedience, however its still...hmmm...well open to some interpretation.
What exactly is considered "unlawful"? Are we just talking Lawful as in alignment (probably the most commonsense approach) or does it also include (or is just limited to) "unlawful" as in, "Laws of the land?"
Still if we say "unlawful" as in "Lawful" alignment-vise...it becomes, well weird and imprecise, because of difficulty of nailing down exact actions to the Law-Chaos axis.If we go with the "Law of the land" interpretation...
Oh boy, I could make some crazy (and great) concepts out of that.
I mean, the first would simply be as a traveling executioner, taming the hinterlands with axe and noose.
On the other hand...
Questionable states have laws too, so you might find yourself manning a Final Blade in Galt.
Ragathiel is a prime example of why I believe alignment should be tossed. Most paladins I've played would view him as an enemy.
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I think there are two elements to it.
The first is an external bias. As a society, we generally don't like seeing characters who live according to high moral codes. Americans tend to prefer the scrappy underdog, the rebel, the loner who goes their own way, the cop who breaks the rules in order to get real justice.
We have a bias against characters like Superman and Luke Skywalker and towards characters like Batman and Han Solo.
Paladins live by that strong moral code, and remind most of us that in the real world? We fall very short. Most of us consider ourselves "good" people. But we'll tell a white lie, or break a minor law. And we're still good. The Paladin holds themselves above that. And that makes us question if we're as good as we think we are. Which immediately lends to people looking at the rules and seeing how they can make a Paladin fall.
The other part is one or two bad Paladin players, who let their characters be zealots and overbearing and squash the other party members. And that can be a hard taste to get out of one's mouth. Not all, or even most Paladin players do that. But enough do that we all remember "that guy."
This^^
If you are interested in real world analogies, I suggest reading some academic papers on understanding antisemitism. Basically, we have a certain moral code that defines what good is in our society. For the society of fantasy world, a paladin embodies that goodness. A paladin is an icon for morality; a living embodiment of how we think a moral person should be. Even if they don't do or say anything, their very presence makes us feel like we are being judged, and are found wanting. These feelings are of personal guilt, but since we have a representation of that which is making us feel guilty, we direct our anger to it.
Or something is a terrible idea and people want to show exactly why its a terrible idea.
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Interestingly his God in this setting (The author) obviously felt it wasn't so what happens when two lawful good gods disagre? Especially if their in a pantheon. God A says their paladin acted in accordance with their code and God B says they didn't when God B is say Odin and God A Thor?I'm pretty sure that neither Thor not Odin are lawful or good. I'd guess chaotic neutral and true neutral respectively.
I'm going to assume you meant Zeus in the second example based on context. I used Odin/Thor as I was thinking Odin has a paladin who he believes has acted correctly whereas the superem deity of his pantheon Odin tells him no he hasn't and he needs to correct him. Although opposing Pantheon's muddy the water even further if a greek lawful good god tells a norse lawful good god their paladin is acting up and the norse one disagrees do they go to some divine court? Not as smart arse as it sounds because surely there has to be either (a) one final authority they all listen to or (b) some means for different gods to settle their disputes and disagreements on the rules about playing with mortals otherwise we wind up with a missing planet.
Speaking personally I never found any of the old gods to be particularly lawful, good yes in several cases but not lawful.
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Well, one important part of ancient Egyptian mythology was the court battle over the inheritance of Osiris. That has got to count for something.
(Even if the final judgment was "You know what? Wrestle for it." because Isis disrespected the judge.)
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Sneaks and deceivers can have problems too
Then again the paladin being there is just one more person to con
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wrong there are so many more concepts that cant be used by raw with a paladin as a character or in the party, plus not all evil is being a douchebag in fact that kind of evil is a small minority of what kind of character you can pull off by being evilWhat horror, it limits you from playing an evil douchebag, because that's about the only type that can't effectively play in a party with a Paladin.Well, congratulations on quoting the generic Code of Conduct, Lady-J - care to explain what your problem with it is, other than it getting in the way of Murderhobo 101?this is whats wrong with paladins and why they are disliked
** spoiler omitted **
1. its alignment locked
2. it constrains how one plays a character
3. it limits character design
4. it constrains how other people in the party play their characters, 5. it limits party member character design
6. it limits dms from doing certain things assuming the fm wants to be fair and not make the paladin fall in a catch 22 situation which wipes certain story plots that could have easily been done if there wasn't a paladin in the group
7. the punishment for breaking the code is far to strict
8. its used as some sort of justification for the class getting certain abilities which simply isn't true
Not really, it's pretty much don't be Evil and/or a douchebag, and that's it.
Ah ok the usual arguments then. Peace out!
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freedom fighter - doesn't conflict with Paladin
an actual soldier/combat medic - that's not a class, that's a role, lots of classes can do that, including Paladin
a commoner who envies the nobles for their status - has... absolutely nothing to do with Paladins? And you can play a Paladin that doesn't like Nobles
a paladin who becomes a lich to em-better the kingdom they work for, for all eternity - there's other immortal templates other than Lich, Divine Guardian would work great for this/ we also have the Knight of the Sepulcher archetype of Antipaladin
a mercenary - doesn't conflict with Paladin
a mad paladin who wishes to make the world a better place by giving every one the teaching of Cthulhu - uh, Antipaladin
one who wants vengeance on the ones that killed their family - doesn't conflict with Paladin at all, paladins can seek Vengeance
none of these things are available by raw - They are
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Ah ok the usual arguments then. Peace out!
LOL The usual reply. See you later!
I get the feeling that a lot of paladin hate stems from people who simply *want* to hate the paladin.
Paladins are put in a bad light, from being played wrong. Their code is a personal one. Not one for the whole party.
Basically how it should play down when someone does something outside your code:
Not very paragon
Not attack them physically. Should it be a gregarious offence. Have an RP in-game chat with the offender. Paladins are also there to lead by example and inspire greatness and goodness in others. Not force it down their throats.
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Ah ok the usual arguments then. Peace out!LOL The usual reply. See you later!
I just get tired of all the pointless arguing. Its not going to change anyone's minds. People already have it made up. All the paladin threads always end up being the same.
Just like above where people can't even decide what actions are which alignment. In reality its all about perspective then you have the arguments on whose perspective etc. etc. Their is no real answer because the idea of alignment heck the idea of morality in fact is subjective.
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I get the feeling that a lot of paladin hate stems from people who simply *want* to hate the paladin.
From what I've seen, that's not it. It's first hand seeing just how wrong things can go. If you've ever seen a table flipped in D&D, there's a good chance it was over a paladin. :P Even is everyone plays well and does what they think is right, you will find times people disagree on nebulous things like alignment. Losing all your class features over something you don't think is evil is a sure fire way to tick someone off. it's even worse if the situation is one where every choice makes you fall.
Paladins are put in a bad light, from being played wrong. Their code is a personal one. Not one for the whole party.
That's just one side of the issue. the other is DM that feel it's their responsibility to 'test' the paladin constantly and if that fails, they step it up to catch 22's. You know 'because the class is balanced that way'.
Not force it down their throats.
Honestly, that's just not how a lot of them are played. Paladins seem to attract the type of players that WANT that kind of character. In essence, they aren't lording over other because they are a paladin but they pick a paladin BECAUSE they could justify the actions as 'it's not me, it's because I'm a paladin'.
locked by the dev team cuz their is to much discussion that many people are passionate about?I just get tired of all the pointless arguing. Its not going to change anyone's minds. People already have it made up. All the paladin threads always end up being the same.Ah ok the usual arguments then. Peace out!LOL The usual reply. See you later!
Its kind of like Godwin's law except that paladin threads and that^^