yes but the design team also makes some items grossly over priced (like the ring of regeneration) as is the ring stated up already should have a price tag of 20k
And how are you getting that price? fast healing is something rare and hard for players to get, thus the cost to get it is often very high.
boots of earth are 5000 gold and you only just need to stay still for them to work, removing the limitations of that item would set it around 12k gold and giving it the ability to regrow body parts would make it around 20kyes but the design team also makes some items grossly over priced (like the ring of regeneration) as is the ring stated up already should have a price tag of 20kAnd how are you getting that price? fast healing is something rare and hard for players to get, thus the cost to get it is often very high.
Or boots of the earth was supposed to only work once a day and be priced at 5000gp.
Or boots of the earth was supposed to only work once a day and be priced at 5000gp.boots of earth are 5000 gold and you only just need to stay still for them to work, removing the limitations of that item would set it around 12k gold and giving it the ability to regrow body parts would make it around 20kyes but the design team also makes some items grossly over priced (like the ring of regeneration) as is the ring stated up already should have a price tag of 20kAnd how are you getting that price? fast healing is something rare and hard for players to get, thus the cost to get it is often very high.
Infernal Cord also costs 5000gp and activates every time you're crit for 1 min. So 5000gp seems the go to price for fast heal that has strings attached.
Hmm I feel like their was a 3.0 prestige class that gave you fast healing at some point. hmm might have been psionic... anyways I feel like fast healing 1 at to low of a level does kind of obsolete your healers. Which may or may not be good in some games.
Also yeah I feel like the op will probably not be back.
As barbosa said: I feel that the magic item creation rules is more guidelines (Don't make me reference a ring of permanent true strike.)
Hmm I feel like their was a 3.0 prestige class that gave you fast healing at some point. hmm might have been psionic... anyways I feel like fast healing 1 at to low of a level does kind of obsolete your healers. Which may or may not be good in some games.
Also yeah I feel like the op will probably not be back.
As barbosa said: I feel that the magic item creation rules is more guidelines (Don't make me reference a ring of permanent true strike.)
Yep, it says "The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced": Then you find two fast healing items that cost 5000gp and a super expensive item that doesn't give fast heal at all but heals you [in a way like a 7th level spell Regenerate] instead...
The 'guidelines' are pointing to a cost WAY cheaper than 90,000 gp...
Well the point was that Barbosa really didn't follow the rules. Said they were guidelines and didn't follow them to closely.
The bad skeleton captain from the first pirate of the Caribbean
I apologize for confusing you!
Edit: and I'm only a little crazy.
Hmm I feel like their was a 3.0 prestige class that gave you fast healing at some point. hmm might have been psionic... anyways I feel like fast healing 1 at to low of a level does kind of obsolete your healers. Which may or may not be good in some games.
Also yeah I feel like the op will probably not be back.
As barbosa said: I feel that the magic item creation rules is more guidelines (Don't make me reference a ring of permanent true strike.)
beside the fact it would have to be command word activated, you mean a ring that potentially works every round? just how much would a thing like that cost? (if actually possible at all)
beside the fact it would have to be command word activated, you mean a ring that potentially works every round? just how much would a thing like that cost? (if actually possible at all)Hmm I feel like their was a 3.0 prestige class that gave you fast healing at some point. hmm might have been psionic... anyways I feel like fast healing 1 at to low of a level does kind of obsolete your healers. Which may or may not be good in some games.
Also yeah I feel like the op will probably not be back.
As barbosa said: I feel that the magic item creation rules is more guidelines (Don't make me reference a ring of permanent true strike.)
Well if you go by the guidelines it would be super cheap it is only a 1st level spell. However a +20 to hit ring even command word activateable a round would be a little crazy. Its one of those things as a dm you should just say no to.
I remember seeing a dev post on the matter, and they said something along the lines of the following:
It is a to hit bonus on a weapon, so we should look at the closest parrallel first.
A weapon enchantment. But those also increase damage.
So let's halve it because all we are doing half of the effect of the weapon enchant.
We could lower it to a quarter or a third, as we are also not gaining DR bypass.
Ok so, let's take a +20 weapon and divide it by 4.
In theory a plus 20 weapon costs 800 000 gp.
So if we divide by 4 the true strike ring would come out at 200 000gp.
but you have to be able to afford 200K gold to start with.
Bear in mind that that is using the most liberal use of the guidelines.
It could be closer to 400k, or 800k even.
At the levels you can afford it there are options that break the game more.
It is mostly to show that you should not be able to get it for the cost of a level 1 spell duplicating item as per the table.
Bear in mind that that is using the most liberal use of the guidelines.
It could be closer to 400k, or 800k even.At the levels you can afford it there are options that break the game more.
It is mostly to show that you should not be able to get it for the cost of a level 1 spell duplicating item as per the table.
Do what with your mind?
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Bear the bare bear in mind
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A ring of fast healing would be very powerful because it's essentially at-will healing. This is a gamechanger because the core game system is built upon the assumption that healing is a finite resource that requires money and/or preparation. Going contrary to this assumption will have a major impact on the game. From a GM perspective, it will limit your tools for creating a variety of interesting combats because PCs will completely heal after combat at absolutely no cost regardless of how well they played out the fight.
This is one of the reasons why ring of regeneration is prohibitively expensive and why boots of the earth was house ruled in PFS as a once-per-day item.
I remember playing in a pre-3E D&D game where the most valuable item the party had was a Ring of Regeneration -- and since at that time we did not have the rule that it only healed damage suffered while wearing the ring, we would pass it around the party between battles to heal everyone up.
I wonder whether that restriction to only healing damage suffered while wearing the ring should have reduced the price a bit? Or would this ring without that restriction count as an epic item in modern games?
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From a GM perspective, it will limit your tools for creating a variety of interesting combats because PCs will completely heal after combat at absolutely no cost regardless of how well they played out the fight.
Funny, I imagine it would open up more variety. As they day goes by you'd normally have to worry about difficult combats killing a PC if resources were drained and health was low, so you'd either pull your punches or let them leave and come back at full power.
It should only help groups keep going. Plus it isn't like it a Ring of Fast Healing would heal ability damage/drain, negative levels, loss of limbs, ect so you could still drain resources other than HP.
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From a GM perspective, it will limit your tools for creating a variety of interesting combats because PCs will completely heal after combat at absolutely no cost regardless of how well they played out the fight.Funny, I imagine it would open up more variety. As they day goes by you'd normally have to worry about difficult combats killing a PC if resources were drained and health was low, so you'd either pull your punches or let them leave and come back at full power.
It should only help groups keep going. Plus it isn't like it a Ring of Fast Healing would heal ability damage/drain, negative levels, loss of limbs, ect so you could still drain resources other than HP.
I'm with Dragonborn3 on this. Outside of very low level where you don't have any treasure, or don't have anywhere to shop, I have never seen a party without an abundant amount of healing consumables. Adventuring without them is foolhardy, as is going into any combat significantly injured. I just don't see hit point damage as a significant damper to a party's abilities. If you're looking for ways to slow the party down, using poison/diseases or energy drain, and spacing combat out so that buffs don't persist from one combat to the next are much better ways to wear down the party.
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From a GM perspective, it will limit your tools for creating a variety of interesting combats because PCs will completely heal after combat at absolutely no cost regardless of how well they played out the fight.Funny, I imagine it would open up more variety. As they day goes by you'd normally have to worry about difficult combats killing a PC if resources were drained and health was low, so you'd either pull your punches or let them leave and come back at full power.
It should only help groups keep going. Plus it isn't like it a Ring of Fast Healing would heal ability damage/drain, negative levels, loss of limbs, ect so you could still drain resources other than HP.
You're confusing ease of designing encounters with the ability to create a variety of encounters. I explain in detail in other threads why at-will healing limits a GM's ability to create a variety of tension in encounters. Sure, it makes encounters easier to design, but the game loses depth as a consequence.
Having to rely more on ability drain, negative levels, and loss of limbs doesn't sound like fun either.
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From a GM perspective, it will limit your tools for creating a variety of interesting combats because PCs will completely heal after combat at absolutely no cost regardless of how well they played out the fight.Funny, I imagine it would open up more variety. As they day goes by you'd normally have to worry about difficult combats killing a PC if resources were drained and health was low, so you'd either pull your punches or let them leave and come back at full power.
It should only help groups keep going. Plus it isn't like it a Ring of Fast Healing would heal ability damage/drain, negative levels, loss of limbs, ect so you could still drain resources other than HP.
You're confusing ease of designing encounters with the ability to create a variety of encounters. I explain in detail in other threads why at-will healing limits a GM's ability to create a variety of tension in encounters. Sure, it makes encounters easier to design, but the game loses depth as a consequence.
Having to rely more on ability drain, negative levels, and loss of limbs doesn't sound like fun either.
With cheap and plentiful healing wands, unlimited healing is pretty much the standard. If the party stops for the day, it's because other resources have been drained. Stopping because of HP stops being an issue at level 1 or 2. I don't see the meaningful difference between a pile of wands or a fast heal item.
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With cheap and plentiful healing wands, unlimited healing is pretty much the standard. If the party stops for the day, it's because other resources have been drained. Stopping because of HP stops being an issue at level 1 or 2. I don't see the meaningful difference between a pile of wands or a fast heal item.
A pile of wands will eventually run out. You need to keep investing gold in them, and there is always the possibility of being cut off from resupply (far behind enemy lines, on a deserted island, lost in Hell, etc), meaning you can't buy more. Fast healing items have no such limitation. One you have them, you never need to worry about spending more gold or being cut off from doing so.
A fast healing item only heals you. A pile of wands doubles as a pile of weapons against undead.
Also you can't use a wand while unconscious, while the fast healing item has no such limitation. So with the fast healing item, you can focus on fighting. IF you get knocked out, you will be back in a few rounds. If you had to rely on wands, you must choose to either keep fighting or heal yourself before reaching negatives.
There are multiple meaningful differences between a pile of wands and a fast healing item. The pile of wands gives you multiple options (healing and damage), forces you to make decisions in combat (do I heal now, or can I risk waiting until later?) and gives a source of dramatic tension (do we use some of the last charges from our dwindling supply, or hold off for an emergency?). Fast healing items remove all of that.
Except that (as noted above) wands will heal more damage than you can plausibly take. 275hp per wand is quite a lot, and if you craft those wands yourself (which you should - it's easy) that's cheap. So you have a choice of making, say, 80 wands (22000hp) for 30000gp or buying a ring. You may want an Efficient quiver to cart them about, but that's only 1800gp (or half that to make). It'll take a long, long time to burn through twenty-two thousand hit points. Plus what you get from resting, channeling, other healing spells and so on.
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A pile of wands will eventually run out.
AT 50 charges per wand, it's a pile o' healing for the price. it relatively comes out mighty cheap as low level the amount it heals is proportionally large vs your total HP. As you level, it proportionally drops in cost, compared to total wealth, and amount healed. So it starts out cheap and stays cheap.
You need to keep investing gold in them, and there is always the possibility of being cut off from resupply (far behind enemy lines, on a deserted island, lost in Hell, etc), meaning you can't buy more.
You have to invest in ammo, food and other things so I don't see gp as an issue. If I'm making arrow, rations and other things I can take time to make a wand. Additionally, as cheap as they are it's simple/easy to pick up a spare. 100 charges can hold you over for a while.
Fast healing items have no such limitation. One you have them, you never need to worry about spending more gold or being cut off from doing so.
Those are pretty niche, right up there with 'can't I steal the wizards spellbook or kidnap the witches familiar'. It's like hating on Eschew Materials because you can't force casters to spend days looking for a live spider to cast a spell...
A fast healing item only heals you. A pile of wands doubles as a pile of weapons against undead.
So you're saying the fast healing objects should be cheaper as they aren't as useful?
Also you can't use a wand while unconscious, while the fast healing item has no such limitation.
And that prevents coup de grâce how? The in combat healing is unlikely to matter at all unless dying from death from inability to stabilize is a common occurrence.
So with the fast healing item, you can focus on fighting.
Yep, I just took a 50 hp bite but now that I rehealed 1 hp I don't have to worry anymore...
IF you get knocked out, you will be back in a few rounds.
Sure, I always find that monsters kindly wait until I wake up from my nap before combat starts again. It's the only polite thing to do. :P
If you had to rely on wands, you must choose to either keep fighting or heal yourself before reaching negatives.
In combat and out of combat healing are different things. Fast healing 1 isn't my idea of in combat healing...
There are multiple meaningful differences between a pile of wands and a fast healing item.
Yes, the wands are more useful as they can attack undead. I agree.
The pile of wands gives you multiple options (healing and damage), forces you to make decisions in combat (do I heal now, or can I risk waiting until later?) and gives a source of dramatic tension (do we use some of the last charges from our dwindling supply, or hold off for an emergency?). Fast healing items remove all of that.
Ah... I think you overestimate the 'tension' involved. Unless the whole schtick of the campaign is 'shipwreck', it's just not real. It's right up there with 'I'm running out of spells, I need to find my spellbook'... 1 single time it might be an interesting situation. Multiple times it's just annoying... As such, I find this more a reason to house-rule out fast healing items if you're doing a 'shipwreck' game as opposed to a reason to prevent fast healing items.
yeah, all the problems you listed for wands aren't there. You never have the decision of wand in combat or keep fighting. If you have something useful to do for the fight you do that, if you're useless to helping the fight end then sure, use a wand charge in the fight
With cheap and plentiful healing wands, unlimited healing is pretty much the standard. If the party stops for the day, it's because other resources have been drained. Stopping because of HP stops being an issue at level 1 or 2. I don't see the meaningful difference between a pile of wands or a fast heal item.
And those other resources will drain significantly less if damage has no consequence unless it kills you before the end of the battle.
As long as healing has a gold and preparation cost, consumables will never have the same effect as an at-will healing option. Even a glance at the economics can easily prove this. The major issue with wands is that they make healing feel trivial because you can easily stockpile them and only one player is responsible for managing them. This is why my group removed wands from the game and replaced them with potions that cost the same as wand charges.
Jeraa is totally correct why an at-will healing option will dramatically impact a campaign. It simplifies the game's economics at the cost of removing a significant amount of depth. The entire combat system (as well as some non-combat systems) revolves around playing smart to avoid taking damage. Combat loses depth if damage has no consequence unless it kills you before the end of the fight. It makes combat more binary. It doesn't matter if your big dumb fighters collectively took 275 damage by playing like idiots if it costs the party absolutely nothing to bring them back to full health. Combat will get samey and dull and force the GM to resort to making every encounter lethal or use annoying mechanics like negative levels and ability drain more often.
And those other resources will drain significantly less if damage has no consequence unless it kills you before the end of the battle.
They drain at the same rate. The only difference is that the party that has healing withheld stops before it has actually USED it's other resources because hp have run out. Not fun in my book, unless sleeping with 1/2 your spells left if fun.
As long as healing has a gold and preparation cost, consumables will never have the same effect as an at-will healing option. Even a glance at the economics can easily prove this.
I glanced at it, and I see something VERY different than you. The ONLY, and I do mean ONLY difference is out of combat action economy and 99.9% of the time, that's meaningless.
The major issue with wands is that they make healing feel trivial because you can easily stockpile them and only one player is responsible for managing them. This is why my group removed wands from the game and replaced them with potions that cost the same as wand charges.
So what you're saying is that things feel different if you houserule it to make it MUCH harder on the players. I agree, but that has little to do with a standard game that actually follows the rules. ANd you actually disagree with yourself on economy as you're fine with the cost, you just make each 'charge' cost weight.
Jeraa is totally correct why an at-will healing option will dramatically impact a campaign.
She might be correct for HER game, but not for any I've ever been in.
It simplifies the game's economics at the cost of removing a significant amount of depth.
It's a 'depth' that I seen dozens of DM in the past not care about. In fact, I haven't played with one that did.
The entire combat system (as well as some non-combat systems) revolves around playing smart to avoid taking damage.
It DOES? I missed that in the combat section? Where is that printed?
Combat loses depth if damage has no consequence unless it kills you before the end of the fight.
The only valid tactic in combat is YOURS?
It makes combat more binary.
So everything about combat is solely based on avoiding damage and if I don't I'm playing wrong?
It doesn't matter if your big dumb fighters collectively took 275 damage by playing like idiots if it costs the party absolutely nothing to bring them back to full health.
If that what the player enjoys, what's wrong with it?
Combat will get samey and dull and force the GM to resort to making every encounter lethal or use annoying mechanics like negative levels and ability drain more often.
You touch on a single aspect of combat, damage, and base they entirety of how the combat feels on that? Tactical positions, teamwork, flanking, buffing, aid others, ect. All that is meaningless and add NOTHING to the combat as it's all about if you heal to full afterwards?
I have to say, I've agreed with absolutely nothing you posted.
Well the game balances around resource management. Your reducing what you have to manage.
Honestly I don't know how you guys think unlimited healing is not a game changer.
I don't know too many GM that let their players gain a full rest up after every single encounter.
The one plus side is at least you made the fighter a completly resource-less class. Should never have to stop.
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Because a pile of healing wands is effectively unlimited healing, or more than characters will really need. And PCs can already acquire those.
I've never been in a game where we've run out of healing past level 3, except where healing items have been removed completely from the game. That includes the marching into the abyss, with nowhere to shop games.
Well the game balances around resource management. Your reducing what you have to manage.
You manage it the EXACT same way: you throw money at it. It doesn't matter if it's a several wands or fast healing. I can't understand why you guys can't see that.
Honestly I don't know how you guys think unlimited healing is not a game changer.
Because it isn't? Lets say you take 50hp damage, the rogue took 42 and the bard took 18. A ring of fast heal one takes 110 rounds to heal that. That means 110 rounds of buffs vanished... How is this HELPINg/LOWERING resource use? Seems to me, it's making sure buffs only last 1 fight.
I don't know too many GM that let their players gain a full rest up after every single encounter.
I don't know of any that don't when you've bought ways to heal. Do you interrupt the party with monsters EVERY time they pull out a wand to heal?
The one plus side is at least you made the fighter a completly resource-less class. Should never have to stop.
Plenty of things aren't hp related in the game. Past the first few levels, I've rarely run into a situation where hp was the main reason a party stopped to rest.
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Honestly I don't know how you guys think unlimited healing is not a game changer.Because it isn't? Lets say you take 50hp damage, the rogue took 42 and the bard took 18. A ring of fast heal one takes 110 rounds to heal that. That means 110 rounds of buffs vanished... How is this HELPINg/LOWERING resource use? Seems to me, it's making sure buffs only last 1 fight.
Once my group reaches high level, we usually switch to wands of cure light wounds specifically for this reason. Wands of infernal healing are nice, but they're not worth the 10-15 minutes it takes to heal back to full.
Nope still disagree.
putting all your money into wands is still not infinite healing.
Full rest means 8 hours of rest all spells back etc.
Who said anything about interrupting the monsters every time they try t heal whit a wand where did that come from?
Yes their is other resources you have to manage like spells, wands and potions
Your game do what you want but don't try and pass some lie off that PF/D&D isn't a resource management game.
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Nope still disagree.
putting all your money into wands is still not infinite healing.
You don't need infinite healing, you just need as much as the damage you take. The ability to heal more than that just goes to waste. And it doesn't take all your money, our last level 1-20 campaign we spent less than 12k gold on healing for the entire 4 man party. I know cause I was the treasurer for the whole campaign.
Your game do what you want but don't try and pass some lie off that PF/D&D isn't a resource management game.
No one's trying to say that. What we're saying is that hit point damage isn't a meaningful resource to worry about over the course of an adventuring day because healing is cheap and easy, at least in the standard pathfinder game. Spells per day, ability pools and limited use abilities are the real resources that need to be managed.
Well the game balances around resource management. Your reducing what you have to manage.
Honestly I don't know how you guys think unlimited healing is not a game changer.
I don't know too many GM that let their players gain a full rest up after every single encounter.
The one plus side is at least you made the fighter a completly resource-less class. Should never have to stop.
Hit points area managed resource too
putting all your money into wands is still not infinite healing.
Where is this infinite healing? I haven't found that method yet.
Who said anything about interrupting the monsters every time they try t heal whit a wand where did that come from?
"full rest up after every single encounter." I was taking it to be in reference to healing as that is the topic at hand. If you were referencing something else, I was justifiably confused as you switched topics. 8 hours rest has no baring on what we're talking about so... I don't know what's it's here for.
Yes their is other resources you have to manage like spells, wands and potions
And the fast healing object fits right in there too because it uses one of the MOST VALUABLE in the game: Time. Each hp is 1 round of buffs ticking away, and as you said, 'spells, wands and potions' are resources so having to reapply them because you took out an hour to heal sounds like it's not removing resource use at all.
Your game do what you want but don't try and pass some lie off that PF/D&D isn't a resource management game.
AH... That's what I want to say to you... Please don't try to ignore the fact that cheap/easy healing exists or say that fast healing would somehow cause the sky to fall. You're just ignoring that time is a resource to track.
A ring of regeneration is infinite healing, it will heal all that you have suffered while wearing it, just not instantly, but MUCH faster than by rest/extended rest.