What use is Major Mind Swap?

[The Imperator]

Major Mind Swap, like Possession, does not let you use activated Ex, Su, or Sp abilities of the form you swap into. However, Major Mind Swap only lets you swap into something of your race.

Why would this spell ever be used then? It doesn't have any real benefit, beyond maybe tweaking some physical stats slightly. And if you have any racial abilities, you lose them, despite going to your same race.

I had contemplated maybe seeing if Instant Enemy could combo with the spell, but it just treats something as a creature type, not a race, so even that doesn't give any benefit to Mind Swap.

The spell is pretty atrocious for a 9th level spell, other than the fact it is permanent. But a 18 level Psychic (or 17th level wizard with the Necronomicon) has many, many other ways of infiltrating someplace than a spell that will at best do little and at worst completely screw you out of a lot of racial stuff.

Is there some benefit to this spell I'm not seeing?

[Dustin Heaton]

You're a bbeg near the end of your life. You use greater mind swap on a young person. Not all spells are meant for players.

[The_Superior_Dudemeister]

See also: The Superior Spider-Man

[The Imperator]

Dustin Heaton wrote:

You're a bbeg near the end of your life. You use greater mind swap on a young person. Not all spells are meant for players.

I guess that makes sense, but it seems strange to do that rather than other sources of immortality that give you better stats. Lich/Psychic Lich, for starters. Or find a wizard that can cast clone and get him to make you some scrolls. There are a lot of those on the planet, and probably more than arent statted officially that work in the statted libraries and universities around the planet that you could probably pay to help. Especially since there's a large chance unless you're just a simple race like a human or something that you lose some racial abilities with major mind swap.

The_Superior_Dudemeister wrote:

See also: The Superior Spider-Man

Wouldn't work. Peter's sticking to stuff ability is not on at all times, so Ock couldn't use it RAW with Major Mind Swap. AFAIK Peter's ability requires more than just a climb bonus to replicate in Pathfinder :P

[Potato disciple]

also, GMS the bbeg and go to town sending all his minions to suicide misssions. Lots o' fun.

[Dustin Heaton]

The Imperator wrote:

Dustin Heaton wrote:

You're a bbeg near the end of your life. You use greater mind swap on a young person. Not all spells are meant for players.

I guess that makes sense, but it seems strange to do that rather than other sources of immortality that give you better stats. Lich/Psychic Lich, for starters. Or find a wizard that can cast clone and get him to make you some scrolls. There are a lot of those on the planet, and probably more than arent statted officially that work in the statted libraries and universities around the planet that you could probably pay to help. Especially since there's a large chance unless you're just a simple race like a human or something that you lose some racial abilities with major mind swap.

Because you're a person, not stats on a page, and most people, even evil ones, don't want to experience death and/or undeath.

[Dαedαlus]

Alternatively, imagine this:
You're an evil wizard, and while you've never been the healthiest, as you grow older, your body grows even frailer. Then, one day you come across a young, strong knight (possibly even augmented by powerful magics or simply good fortune- i.e. has a template or two). You capture this fine young specimen, and after the appropriate ritual, this knight is trapped in your dying body, and you now have excellent physical might to compete with your phenomenal mind.

In other words, it's a way to get your stats really, really high. And possibly a passive bonus from a template. Oh, and you now have a completely different appearance- perfect for infiltration, escaping pursuit, or something similar.

Side note: Where's the Necromonicon given stats? I can't find it anywhere.

[The Imperator]

Dαedαlus wrote:

Alternatively, imagine this:

You're an evil wizard, and while you've never been the healthiest, as you grow older, your body grows even frailer. Then, one day you come across a young, strong knight (possibly even augmented by powerful magics or simply good fortune- i.e. has a template or two). You capture this fine young specimen, and after the appropriate ritual, this knight is trapped in your dying body, and you now have excellent physical might to compete with your phenomenal mind.

In other words, it's a way to get your stats really, really high. And possibly a passive bonus from a template. Oh, and you now have a completely different appearance- perfect for infiltration, escaping pursuit, or something similar.

Side note: Where's the Necromonicon given stats? I can't find it anywhere.

It's in the Strange Aeons AP, the fifth part.

Dustin Heaton wrote:

Because you're a person, not stats on a page, and most people, even evil ones, don't want to experience death and/or undeath.

While that's true, Major Mind Swap is still pretty evil as a power. I guess I just tend to view villains that are willing to steal bodies and kill people through old age as probably seeking to exploit all the loopholes they can, especially given what will happen to their soul regardless of whether they become undead or not.

[Dave Justus]

You can be evil and still not want to be a walking corpse.

Frankly, I find it incredible that anyone would be so afraid of death that they would choose that option.

A nice healthy young body instead of being old and dying though? I certainly see the attraction there.

[Coidzor]

The Imperator wrote:

I guess that makes sense, but it seems strange to do that rather than other sources of immortality that give you better stats. Lich/Psychic Lich, for starters. Or find a wizard that can cast clone and get him to make you some scrolls. There are a lot of those on the planet, and probably more than arent statted officially that work in the statted libraries and universities around the planet that you could probably pay to help. Especially since there's a large chance unless you're just a simple race like a human or something that you lose some racial abilities with major mind swap.

To be fair, they have been gradually retconning how difficult it is to become a Lich over time. I suspect because they wanted to make Tar Baphon more special instead of something that every Necromancer of any real power could just do, and especially to try to scare away Evil PCs from it due to the risks involved.

As for losing racial abilities, that's almost certainly one of those cases where they didn't think about things too carefully because it was for the bad guys/NPCs.

Dave Justus wrote:

You can be evil and still not want to be a walking corpse.

Frankly, I find it incredible that anyone would be so afraid of death that they would choose that option.

A nice healthy young body instead of being old and dying though? I certainly see the attraction there.

Because you want to stay in the game. Also, unlike religious zealots, an arcane caster can be well aware of the nature of the cosmos and have no delusions about what kind of reward would be waiting for them in the afterlife, but also no desire to convert to Goodness and end up as a schmuck petitioner.

The Imperator wrote:

While that's true, Major Mind Swap is still pretty evil as a power. I guess I just tend to view villains that are willing to steal bodies and kill people through old age as probably seeking to exploit all the loopholes they can, especially given what will happen to their soul regardless of whether they become undead or not.

Table Top RPG writers rarely consider the loopholes, even when they're known, it's one of those seemingly universal axioms about them.

Probably for their sanity, as many of them are a headache to contemplate for too long, especially from the perspective of someone who would want to fix them without breaking more things.

Dαedαlus wrote:

Alternatively, imagine this:

You're an evil wizard, and while you've never been the healthiest, as you grow older, your body grows even frailer. Then, one day you come across a young, strong knight (possibly even augmented by powerful magics or simply good fortune- i.e. has a template or two). You capture this fine young specimen, and after the appropriate ritual, this knight is trapped in your dying body, and you now have excellent physical might to compete with your phenomenal mind.

In other words, it's a way to get your stats really, really high. And possibly a passive bonus from a template. Oh, and you now have a completely different appearance- perfect for infiltration, escaping pursuit, or something similar.

It does save you some money by making you able to use Blood Money for more stuff, especially after buffing up.

[Rysky]

They haven’t really retconned anything at all, at least in regards to Golarion. The secrets to becoming a Lich are, well, secrets that not a lot of people know about.

As for player characters becoming Liches A) players are exceptions, not the standard, B) Lich is a template so you need the GMs permission to become one and undertake the process.

[The Imperator]

Coidzor wrote:

Table Top RPG writers rarely consider the loopholes, even when they're known, it's one of those seemingly universal axioms about them.

Paizo is actually generally good about acknowledging loopholes. They obliquely referenced the fact the sun can be used as a railgun in Distant Worlds, for instance, and one post campaign thing for Strange Aeons even has a wizard who is abusing Genies and wishes from them.

But yeah, thanks for your POV!

[Luthorne]

It exists to enable classic stories, such as the psychic or wizard grooming their apprentice with an eye to taking over their body, or a malevolent psychic who's been alive for hundreds or thousands of years, transferring from body to body, and other similar tales.

[Adjoint]

Is there anywhere a limitation that you need to swap minds with a humanoid? Imagine transfering your mind into some powerful creature! And if that was an evil creature, you may be doing the world a favor.

[KingOfAnything]

For the permanent version, yes.

Quote:

Target one creature of your same race

[Malefactor]

Adjoint wrote:

Is there anywhere a limitation that you need to swap minds with a humanoid? Imagine transfering your mind into some powerful creature! And if that was an evil creature, you may be doing the world a favor.

Nope, only on other members of your race. Still, a fighter with physical stats in the high twenties body is going to be more (mechanically) attractive than your scrawny spellcaster's.

Edit: Ninja'd! Eh, I leave it here because of the link

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

The Imperator wrote:

The_Superior_Dudemeister wrote:

See also: The Superior Spider-Man

Wouldn't work. Peter's sticking to stuff ability is not on at all times, so Ock couldn't use it RAW with Major Mind Swap. AFAIK Peter's ability requires more than just a climb bonus to replicate in Pathfinder :P

Pete's ability is essentially just a constant, (probably) non-magical version of spider climb.

Sure, he's not constantly sticking to things, but his ability to climb is on all the time in the sense that he doesn't have to say a magic word or press a button to stick to a wall--he just does it. In pathfinder terms, he doesn't have to spend an action to activate his Climb speed, he can simply climb up a wall as part of his move action.

[The_Superior_Dudemeister]

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

The Imperator wrote:

The_Superior_Dudemeister wrote:

See also: The Superior Spider-Man

Wouldn't work. Peter's sticking to stuff ability is not on at all times, so Ock couldn't use it RAW with Major Mind Swap. AFAIK Peter's ability requires more than just a climb bonus to replicate in Pathfinder :P

Pete's ability is essentially just a constant, (probably) non-magical version of spider climb.

Sure, he's not constantly sticking to things, but his ability to climb is on all the time in the sense that he doesn't have to say a magic word or press a button to stick to a wall--he just does it. In pathfinder terms, he doesn't have to spend an action to activate his Climb speed, he can simply climb up a wall as part of his move action.

Since the Radioactive Spider altered Pete's genetics, it could be fair to say that the ability score bonuses, Spider-Sense (Improved Uncanny Dodge, Evasion), and climb speed are all considered racial features.

Basically the possessor wouldn't have Peter's ranks in Craft (Alchemy) and Craft Wondrous Item feat to make webbing or web-shooters although if you possess him while he wears those things you'd have access to his current inventory of magic items.

[/derail]

[Dαedαlus]

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

The Imperator wrote:

The_Superior_Dudemeister wrote:

See also: The Superior Spider-Man

Wouldn't work. Peter's sticking to stuff ability is not on at all times, so Ock couldn't use it RAW with Major Mind Swap. AFAIK Peter's ability requires more than just a climb bonus to replicate in Pathfinder :P

Pete's ability is essentially just a constant, (probably) non-magical version of spider climb.

Sure, he's not constantly sticking to things, but his ability to climb is on all the time in the sense that he doesn't have to say a magic word or press a button to stick to a wall--he just does it. In pathfinder terms, he doesn't have to spend an action to activate his Climb speed, he can simply climb up a wall as part of his move action.

And beyond that, Peter is an excellent example of a templated human, with said climb speed, and insane levels of Dex (part of his spidey sense, no doubt), Str (the kid practically catches cars for fun), and Con (you've seen how much he takes before going down, right?). He likely also has some form of insane racial bonus to perception, and some versions also have an (Ex) power to shoot webs.

So, Spider-Man would be an excellent choice for Greater Mind Swap, all told. Captain America, the Hulk (if you could get him in hulked-out mode as a valid target) and Wolverine (assuming mutants count as variant humans) would also be good ideas.

[Tacticslion]

So, quick question, how does major mind swap interact with something like reincarnate spy?

EDIT: my question is this: do you count as your original race, or the new one? (You could, of course, substitute reincarnate, or anything else similar.)

Also, it seems clear that the limitations imposed by possession were likely not entirely thought about when they created it; or they were hoping for a future feat along the lines of improved possession (or maybe even a ret-con of that feat) made for general use instead of just demons.

[KingOfAnything]

All you need for Spider-Man in Pathfinder is the superhero class with the spider-man archetype.

[NoTongue]

Dustin Heaton wrote:

You're a bbeg near the end of your life. You use greater mind swap on a young person. Not all spells are meant for players.

Really dislike this argument.

When a big bad uses magic to move a mountain or summon an army of demons they don't need it in rules. In that instance a BBEG can just do it because the story allows them to do it.

[Tacticslion]

NoTongue wrote:

Dustin Heaton wrote:

You're a bbeg near the end of your life. You use greater mind swap on a young person. Not all spells are meant for players.

Really dislike this argument.

When a big bad uses magic to move a mountain or summon an army of demons they don't need it in rules. In that instance a BBEG can just do it because the story allows them to do it.

I really agree with NoTongue - I don't particularly like the idea of different rules for PCs and NPCs, but if it was you would be able to "narrative" it; plus it t seems like if this is the intent, it should be made more clear than it is. Basically, if you've a narrati OST approach, it's unnecessary, but if you're about internal consistency, it feels sloppy. It works if your in a middle ground between the two, but then the intent is obscured.

[Luthorne]

Not everyone starts with pure concepts. Some people examine the rules and let them inspire them for a character's tactics or background. Just the fact that this is something that is canonically possible via the Pathfinder ruleset might well let GMs sketch out scenarios they might otherwise not have, though making it an occult ritual might have done just as well.

And, of course, not everyone is comfortable granting purely narrative abilities without any plausible explanation for why a PC can never do it...or playing under someone who utilizes it.

[pad300]

NoTongue wrote:

Dustin Heaton wrote:

You're a bbeg near the end of your life. You use greater mind swap on a young person. Not all spells are meant for players.

Really dislike this argument.

When a big bad uses magic to move a mountain or summon an army of demons they don't need it in rules. In that instance a BBEG can just do it because the story allows them to do it.

So what do you think the witch hexes Child Scent and Cook People are for? Paizo has history of creating stuff like that...

[Haywire build generator]

The Imperator wrote:

They obliquely referenced the fact the sun can be used as a railgun in Distant Worlds,

I would like to learn more about this.

[Coidzor]

NoTongue wrote:

Dustin Heaton wrote:

You're a bbeg near the end of your life. You use greater mind swap on a young person. Not all spells are meant for players.

Really dislike this argument.

When a big bad uses magic to move a mountain or summon an army of demons they don't need it in rules. In that instance a BBEG can just do it because the story allows them to do it.

They may not need it in absolute terms, but there are plenty of people out there writing RPG material who think that it should be codified in the rules in some way, whether through things like Occult Rituals, regular old generic rituals, or custom spells.

So the fact that people do write material for that purpose and don't typically think it through that much beyond their intended use due to the way most people have their attention focused on what they're doing and less on the repercussions of doing it and other sorts of intellectual biases.

If this is true of this particular spell, well, we only have speculation without grilling those responsible.

[The Imperator]

Haywire build generator wrote:

The Imperator wrote:

They obliquely referenced the fact the sun can be used as a railgun in Distant Worlds,

I would like to learn more about this.

My bad, People of the Stars:

Quote:

Powerful spellcasters are often interested in visiting the sun

in order to tap into its vast energy, either to burn their foes or
to power designs of nearly unimaginable scope. Rumors persist
in astronomical circles of ways to weaponize the sun’s energy
such that whole nations—or even worlds—could be consumed
in a massive conflagration, and some whisper that at least
one powerful spellcaster may be close to understanding how
to accomplish such an act.

OK, railgun is inaccurate, but use the sun as a beam weapon or a power source for a beam weapon.

This is actually, technically possible within the rules as they currently are. You need a demiplane, a gate into the core of a star, and then just open up a gate to your demiplane whenever you need a weapon.

Because things are not stated to lose momentum as they move through a Gate, the star's core pressures and the pressure of the room will push the super heated plasma through the new gate very quickly, like water through a hose. That much heat, even given the size of the gate as 20ft in diameter, is going to do serious damage to whatever it's pointed at. It will eat through the crust of the planet it is aimed at really quickly. If you do it from higher up in the atmosphere you could also heat large areas of the planet really quickly.

Then you add in the NPC magic of GM-can-create-new-items-or-rituals and give them a ritual, artifact, or both, and you can raise the diameter of that quite a bit allowing NPCs to utilize it as an end of campaign threat. If only Gate and Create Demiplane were spells in Starfinder, and you could have a really cool big bad with this power set up. I'd never really allow a player to do it, except in something like an evil campaign where the players know everything would be coming at them if they did it.

I just found it funny that, I would assume, someone saw that technically RAW thing and thought it was funny enough to reference it in a splat book. Maybe they just had the idea separately, I guess, but it always seemed to me like a knowing wink.

[Haywire build generator]

Well, if you can raise the temperature above where nitrogen burns in oxygen, there isn't going to be a whole lot surviving even if you don't have a planet-diameter solarbeam.

[The Imperator]

Haywire build generator wrote:

Well, if you can raise the temperature above where nitrogen burns in oxygen, there isn't going to be a whole lot surviving even if you don't have a planet-diameter solarbeam.

That's true too. It doesn't take much concentrated sun to completely ruin a planet's day.

[Dominar Rygel XVI]

Weaponizing stars (and wormholes) just leads to an escalating arms race that no starfaring culture can win. I've seen it for myself.

[The Imperator]

Dominar Rygel XVI wrote:

Weaponizing stars (and wormholes) just leads to an escalating arms race that no starfaring culture can win. I've seen it for myself.

Perfect plot for running PCs as agents of Abadar to keep people from violating inter-dimensional treaties that Abadar is in charge of enforcing.

[Commander Scorpius]

Dominar Rygel XVI wrote:

Weaponizing stars (and wormholes) just leads to an escalating arms race that no starfaring culture can win. I've seen it for myself.

Ah, so you know something about wormholes. By all means, enlighten me. Have a seat in my chair and we'll...discuss the matter. At length.