Question: Is there any way to keep Glitterdust from revealing your location if you are invisible?
Background: I'm a GM, and I'm planning to put my PCs up against a fairly high-level sneak-attacker (Vivisectionist Alchemist that uses throwing knives). To that end, I am looking for ways to let them get sneak attacks, and a Delayed Consumption + Greater Invis seemed like the best solution. I've got Nondetection to make See Invisibility and True Seeing tricky, and Spell Immunity can shut down Invisibility Purge... but what do I do about a no-SR 2nd level spell?
Try and get the caster to target the wrong area with the glitterdust? A decoy or two perhaps, and if the knife-thrower can get any sort of mobility use that.
...trust me, I am *not* worried about accidentally killing all of the PCs. They're in the low-mid teens, pretty damn optimized, and we're using both Path of War and Hero Points, which means that I've had to go Killer GM just to stand a chance (I see pouncing barbarians in my dreams these days, I swear -- bastard has +13 Initiative to boot!).
Realistically, Alchy is a fairly big-name villain in the campaign, so I'm angling for him to survive a few rounds and make an impression (if he makes it three rounds I'll be thrilled). If he can kill a PC or at least put the fear of god into them, all the better (by this point in the campaign, a Raise Dead or two is mostly a slap on the wrist since the party has a dedicated Resurrection fund).
Anyway, sounds like the best idea is to invest in vanishing minions to soak up resources, and to try not to be where the wizard is tossing glitterdust. Easier said than done, I suppose, but worth a shot.
Magical darkness.
Glitter dust says, "continues to sparkle until it fades". It does not say it creates its own light. Sparkling is typically defined as reflecting light. Diamonds sparkle, not because they emit light, but because they reflect it. Therefore if you have no light, glitterdust should not sparkle. If it did, that would be a hack to me as the spell could be used to light up a dark room as a second level spell if you play it like it emits light.
Have you built the alchemist yet?
Beastmorph, Vivisectionist. They can get a burrow speed, if they have spring attack on top of that or some other ability that lets them move after an attack they can avoid being in the area they attacked from.
My advice is, set up a way to get sneak attack that doesn't involve invisibility.
This fight your setting up will just be excessively frustrating and un-fun. You're literally shutting down all methods that can be used to defeat invisibility. You're playing wont really have a way to respond to this character except for area attacks, and that's going to be very frustrating for your players.
I understand you don't want this fight to be a pushover. Add minions. Lots and lots of minions to soak action economy. They can also help to grant flanking to alchemist.
Spell Immunity
Specify glitterdust.
and Spell Immunity can shut down Invisibility Purge...
No, it can't. Spell Immunity doesn't work against spells where SR doesn't apply.
Spell Immunity
Specify glitterdust.
Same here. SR doesn't apply to Glitterdust, so this won't work.
I would second Spring Attack. Glitterdust won't be very effective if they don't know where he is.
(Lesser) globe of invulnerability should work.
(Lesser) globe of invulnerability should work.
This should work.
But, I agree with most of the advice above, anyway. Instead of robbing them of capabilities, invalidate their assumptions and tie up their actions.
Hmm hmm hmm. So, options are:
1) Minions/tying up or expending PC resources (will have to ponder this)
2) Spring Attack to keep mobile, possibly combined with Beastmorph/Burrow (normally a good idea, but if this guy isn't full-attacking I suspect his damage falls down to 'the PCs ignore him' threshold. And a beastmorph pounce build wouldn't fit the plot, sadly)
4) Lesser Globe of Invulnerability (most assured, but it's a Wizard spell too high level to grab via Spell Knowledge, so it's scroll time!)
Otherwise, might need to look for other ways of getting ranged sneaking full attacks... Pity. The advantage of Invis is that it only takes extracts, whereas most other methods require feats on a fairly feat-starved build.
Well, thank you for the suggestions!
A Ring of Counterspells might be an option.
Rather than Spring Attack I'd look at the Startoss Style line. It's slightly better damage, it does some odd stuff, and since it's a standard action he could move after attacking.
A Ring of Counterspells might be an option.
I'm aware this is a massive necro, but as someone googling for options on this, whose eyes lit up at this option, I was sad to then see it was not in fact an option. And I figure best to update the thread for anyone else looking for how to deal with Glitterdust.
The ring only affects spells that target you, not spells that include you in the area. One possible interpretation is that the ring would make you immune to that casting of the spell (and the rest of the area would be affected normally), but that would require additional exlplanatory language and create strange situations where you'd be immune to control water or guards and wards and able to wander freely through such effects. Instead, it is clearer to adjudicate if the ring only affects spells targeting you.
(The wording of the magic item may be clarified in future errata.)
As far as I'm aware, no future errata (they seemed quite... optimistic about that in the early days).
Not that it's relevant anymore but this kind of set up is (depending on where it happens) the kind of thing that drives players to go out the door the way they came and or start throwing flour in the air and all over the floor. Or to flood the room with water. Or two put an opaque wall that doesn't completely divide the room in half so that the enemy might be tempted to try to come around the wall, where you set up a trip wire or flour. And then you have friends waiting with readied actions.
There are ways around it, but honestly this would be a frustrating fight.
Probably the fastest way to "beat" the enemy in a situation like this is to cast fog cloud. If you can't see the enemy, play the same game so they can't see you. Now they have to get within 5ft to locate you, which means their ranged sneak attacks don't work.
In terms of the actual discussion, I realised there's something missed here that I found somewhere else - Dust of Darkness. Costs you the time to put it on yourself, but it ditches the glitter from Glitterdust (and can potentially provide useful concealment otherwise). The action cost makes it balanced.
In terms of the more general idea, I think it depends on if a bad guy has time and information to prepare and players over(or at least heavily) use a technique to the point of "You use this one thing to shut down all approaches!" - I know players who glitterdust everything for the blindness more than the anti-stealth.
A Ring of Counterspells (if it worked, which it doesn't) could be kinda okay, because it's "I got this specific thing, I got it set up knowing you'd cast this, and it's a one-shot." Certainly having a caster on-hand to counter the Glitterdust would work and is a big enough 'investment' to be viable (if they're inclued in the CR, balanced encounter, yadda yadda). Lesser Globe of Invulnerability doesn't move with you, that's quite a restriction, so again that's enough of a downside/setup.
It's definitely not something I'd pull regularly. But if the antagonists have been specifically gathering information about the party? e.g. if the party has an Alchemist, then some Resist/Protection from Energy makes sense. This is certainly a step beyond that, but it can be a "Hey, pick up a new trick maybe?" suggestion to a player.
It's not like it's cheating or metagaming to have a mid-level, named enemy prepare for actually quite popular approaches at defeating one's own main tactic. Like, gee, I use Invinsibility a lot... what do people use to counter Invisibility? It's a pretty short list, honestly. It's not like Alchemists are stupid... enemies preparing for well equipped, smart opponents should be expected by mid levels.
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Just a reminder that even in melee, Concealment actually negates sneak attack damage:...
Probably the fastest way to "beat" the enemy in a situation like this is to cast fog cloud. If you can't see the enemy, play the same game so they can't see you. Now they have to get within 5ft to locate you, which means their ranged sneak attacks don't work.
PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 67 ...Source
Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
...
There are ways around this, of course (like the Sniper's Eye talent), but it makes any sort of obscuring cloud pretty useful (assuming your foe won't just run away to fight again another day).