I think it is indeed premature to demand that Paizo jeapardize their efforts to get you (at least some of) your minis by a refusal to wait to see what they can do.
Oh, the minis are a write-off. I know I'm never getting those. Blood from a rock, etc etc etc. However the silence from the people who vouched for ND speaks more than anything. From the way they are handling this makes me (and probably others) question why I am supporting a company like this with my subscriptions.
Its a lot easier to earn lost money than to earn lost trust, and with the tabletop rpg market booming and being more mainstream, Paizo isn't the biggest kid on the block anymore. Just food for thought.
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No, very clearly people are saying they want the people who convinced them to spend the money, literally took the time to tell them that they should have confidence in Ninja Division, to take at minimum the same amount of time to say.
"My Bad"
But you know, keep reading between lines that don't exist.
Lots of hours in the day, and if you can't spare a moment for the people you helped rob? Speaks volumes and the people who were robbed will wind up getting more and more vocal and then start voting with their dollars.
But, you know, keep using words other than what people are saying to minimize their actual message and continue making them feel ignored. That is also an option. Not one I'd recommend but it appears to be your go to choice.
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So in other words, what you are actually saying to Paizo is 'Quit working on getting me my minis and get busy apologizing.'
More like have Erik take 30 mins out of his obvious very busy day to address the issue at hand and (within the scope of an NDA) what they plan to do about it. That would earn a lot more respect (at least to me) than having Sara continuously take bullets for him.
Then work on getting me my minis. :)
How do you know that? Paizo hasn't been at all forthcoming in the decision making process? Maybe if they did, we could avoid a lot of this discussion.
The only viable option, as evaluated by Paizo at the time. Hindsight is 20/20 and all.
Maybe they are betting on the short attention span of gamers and hope it'll just be forgotten in a few months.
I mean im sure thats what Palladium is doing with their Robotech Fiasco
Palladium is not even a remotely fair comparison as there products have always been an extremely small niche, nothing close to the volume Paizo does.
Palladium also caters to a "fanbois" player base who still love them to death despite robotech's failure and the new backers who only got into Palladium for that one kickstarter are meaningless to Kevin & Palladium as they would generate no future, long term revenue for them.
Paizo on the other hand could see a long term loss of revenue if players not only bail on Starfinder, but Pathfinder as well.
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I'm still waiting for one of the people who insists Paizo had lots of choices for manufacturers to come back with a list and a letter from each indicating they could have done it and would have done it had Paizo come to them.
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Companies shouldn't "gamble." They may take risks--and those risks should be calculated--but it isn't gambling (and I take it you're not really a gambler either).This sounds pedantic.
To pile on, I still don't find fulfilling the explanation to go with ND over some other alternative. Reaper supposedly didn't want to compete with their sci-fi line--but that means you actually have existing IP to bring down your initial investment and can be re-purposed, using Starfinder as a revenue booster--score!That would be something you need to talk to Reaper about then.
WizKids said they didn't have enough time for sculpting. So maybe delay release a bit? Or, hire additional sculpters on a freelance basis, which we know is how this industry often works. Oh, that may drive up the price a bit for Paizo? Do it, because it's better than the risk of total project failure from ND--which HAD to be identified as a possibility--and we know it won't be by much given the prices that freelance artists are paid. More importantly, if scheduling sculpting really was the case, how was ND going to have time to do it?Uh, Paizo does not own WizKids, they can’t make them hire more employees to take on extra projects for them.
I obviously don't know the details, and I'm not pretending to, but the answers provided don't make good sense. Maybe those involved in negotiations simply don't have as much business acumen as expected, or maybe Paizo rushed Starfinder's release too much (TBH, the game definitely feels like it was rushed in places).
Reaper and WizKids have a constant full schedule, it’s how they stay in business. It’s not as simple as hiring on more people at the last moment, there’s plenty of manufacturing that goes into mini design and production (machinery involved, factory space, etc) so just adding more people would most likely done little for production.
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That "just hiring more people" thing is overly stupid.
Those people need to be onboarded, trained and paid. They also need enough projects etc. to be viable, what then leads to more cost, customers paying more, etc. Then when the project ends or not enough new projects can be acquainted, they might be fired and end up on the street.
Overall it can easily lead to the exact situation we experience here, because it really needs careful planning.
I'm still waiting for one of the people who insists Paizo had lots of choices for manufacturers to come back with a list and a letter from each indicating they could have done it and would have done it had Paizo come to them.
Not speaking for them, but people who go down that route may not be looking at the project as a whole.
Sure, there are factories in China that can pump out the plastic within a year, but the project as whole would need to be managed and directed. Everything from sculpting to sourcing.
In that regard, if you outsource, there really isn't alot of companies to go through. But if you want to do something right, and you do not have a reliable company available?
You either don't do it, do it yourself, or outsource to a shady company like Ninja Division against your own customers warnings. In the end biting the hand that feeds the machine.
So, yea, there are alot of 'options' when you go the route of doing it yourself. But you rebuild the wheel and that has risks of its own.
Some anecdotal pondering just out of boredom: I know getting our money back on the Kickstarter is probably a bust, even though they clearly failed to deliver ANY product of any sort to people who threw hundreds of dollars at them, but I wonder amusingly if they can't be at least nailed for fraud on shipping and handling, since they clearly didn't ship, assuming they even handled, for a good number of people who ordered from them.
Just a thought that amuses me, but will likely not get anyone anywhere.
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Looks like IDW dropped Ninja Division after some fans warned them...
HERE
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What, it's 2019, we're after gods know how many failed KS and people are still acting like their KS pledge was equivalent to purchasing a Celine Dion anthology CD on Amazon?
Look, I think most folks are fairly reasonable if your factory burns down, the place you were having them manufactured has a revolution, the boat they were being shipped on sank, or there's some other unforeseen problem. Those are legitimate risks of business and they do happen.
But this kickstarter played out to the tune of take the money and run. The money that was supposed to go to the factory and the shipping went instead to fund ninjadivisions "overhead" (paying ninja division to exist) and "project development" (which is... paying sodapop miniatures which is also ninja division.. or something?). It was irresponsible if not bordering on criminal. There was never a remotely viable plan for producing miniatures and getting them into peoples hands.
And people warned paizo about this. They told paizo that ND aka sodapop minutures was a hole into which money is thrown and nothing comes out. People are annoyed that paizo claimed it had assurances that it apparently has absolutely no reason to have had. Those assurances from paizo are why they're out upwards of 600 bucks.
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I'm really disappointed at all of these folks who are misdirecting their anger at Paizo, but really not at all surprised.
They hyperbole and venom being slung around here is only going to do 1 thing folks; Discourage REAL communication.
Repeat after me: Paizo is NOT LIABLE for Ninja Divisions problems. They licensed their IP to them so there could be some minis for the system. Paizo doesn't own ND, they don't have an "inside-man" and they're not making money off this Kickstarter with the exception of the one-time payment that was made when they sold the IP rights to the named and likenesses of the creatures to be made.
Additionally, I find is SERIOUSLY ironic that so many folks seem determined to utter destroy NDs reputation and business but at the same time they expect them to be able to follow through with actually delivering the miniatures. It's like trying to burn down the Bakery and picketing/boycotting their flour supplier and at the same time demanding that they fill your order, it just doesn't make a lick of sense.
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Repeat after me: Paizo is NOT LIABLE for Ninja Divisions problems.
Legally. No.
Morally? Telling fans -no no we know they're a problem we got it covered-
In this thread alone how many people looked askance and NDs record but changed their mind on paizos say so?
Paizo doesn't own ND, they don't have an "inside-man"
... and to all appearances doesn't have any mechanism to oversee ninja division at all. Which is the kind of thing you SHOULD have if you're going to deal with a company with that track record and tell your fans its all going to be ok.
Additionally, I find is SERIOUSLY ironic that so many folks seem determined to utter destroy NDs reputation and business but at the same time they expect them to be able to follow through with actually delivering the miniatures.
If your "business" model relies on Person B losing money so person A can actually get the stuff they've paid for you might have a point. It would be better For A to be quiet, let person B pay, Let person C kick into the project, and maybe things level out by person F or maybe person F gets hosed.
But we're on A pays and gets nothing. B pays and gets nothing. C pays and gets nothing. D pays and gets nothing....
On a practical level Why on earth do you think that E paying into the company is suddenly going to be different?
On a moral level, why would you let someone else get hosed so you can get yours rather than warning them ?
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Your hypothetical A B C nonsense does nothing to change the fact that some people are simultaneously trying to make it harder for ND to fulfill their obligations by trying to run them out of business with bad reviews and by LITERALLY reaching out to their existing business partners demanding they cut ties and also screaming at the top of their lungs when more problems arise precisely BECAUSE of the problems made by their crumbling reputation and networks, saying that the folks running ND deserve to be hanged and chased out of the industry.... but they still want their minis....
You can either burn the bakery down or get bread, not both.
Your hypothetical A B C nonsense
It's neither hypothetical nor nonsense. It's what happened.
A: Super dungeon explorer. People paid got nothing
B: Relic Knights. People paid got nothing
C: Starfinder master class. People paid got nothing
D: Way of the fighter. People paid got nothing.
What's hypothetical is your idea that if Ninja division can just do one more kickstarter or business deal somehow this will be different despite NDs own projections about how much money they'd need to complete the project. The job was to get sculpts, manufacture minis, ship minis. Money that was collected didn't go to making minis or shipping minis. So... how is another project going to make up for that shortfall?
Name calling is neither an argument nor a legitimate point.
You can either burn the bakery down or get bread, not both.
First of all, the torch and pitchfork mob isn't a singular entity. There's going to be some different ideas that won't work with each other. Its not a contradiction.
Secondly, some people are convinced there is bread inside. They want to go in, get the bread, and THEN run them out of business so that no one else needs to form a torch and pitchfork mob to get the bread they paid for. I don't think that's realistic but it's not a contradiction.
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Look, I am a DIE HARD Starfinder fan and I am seriously pissed I don't have minis for this game but I'm also not yet willing to put all this on Paizo. Ninja Division was a s%%&ty, s+!@ty company and I blame them for this mess. I didn't take part in this kickstarter entirely because of Ninja's involvement and it did puzzle me why a company like Paizo would work with them.
That was before I found out about their trouble finding support from WizKids and Reaper. That upset me. It upset me because it sounds like this is keeping me from getting a real Starfinder Miniature line. It's keeping Paizo from getting the product out there and it's keeping me from getting a chance to buy a product I want.
I don't blame Paizo for that, they took a risk, all businesses do, it went south. Sad. Now more than ever I think it's time for mid level corporations like Paizo and Reaper to acknowledge that Kickstarter is generally awful and that the minute Ninja Division mentioned a Kickstarter in that board room, they should've waited on letting ND from paying the license. But again, I don't blame Paizo for that. Ninja Division is either incompetent or dishonest and Paizo either got desperate or got played. I'm not blaming Paizo.
What I DO blame Paizo for is their absolutely terrible response to this issue. Erik Mona could've written a blog post or Sara could've updated this thread with an official response, inclement weather doesn't stop you from updating the website. I should know, I worked in Web Publishing. There are people who are straight up pissed because they bought into that Kickstarter entirely on the strength of Paizo's endorsement. Do I agree with the whole "I'm burning/selling my Paizo products and never playing Starfinder again!" thing? No. Why deny yourself something you obviously enjoyed? That seems counter productive.
But while I disagree with their response, I agree with the sentiment. People are pissed. I'm pissed because I was looking forward to a miniature line for a game that I very much love, they're pissed because they paid money to support a project that will never get made, and some people are REALLY pissed about those "all in" tiers that probably came from money they worked hard for.
Paizo has a real morale obligation to be much more transparent and clear about how they are handling this situation and how they will prevent this sort of thing from happening in the future. Paizo's executives need to be a lot stronger in how they address this issue and they need to put out this fire now before it hurts the product line I love. I have heard people say they don't want to play Starfinder without a mini line and that frustrates me because Starfinder is already unpopular where I live and asking some people to play it with me is already really effing hard.
I BEG of Paizo to get some kind of serious message out there, not a bunch of piece meal forum posts.
You can either burn the bakery down or get bread, not both.
With respect, this is more like "The Bakery never paid to ship the bread and a large portion of the bread is sitting in some warehouse."
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Repeat after me: Paizo is NOT LIABLE for Ninja Divisions problems.
I've had this discussion previously.
Paizo became liable when, despite warnings to the contrary, they reassured backers that they had investigated those concerns and ND would not have any issues and fulfill the kickstarter.
Paizo didn't just hand a license over to ND, they SOLD the project to backers who knew better but went ahead anyways because they trusted Paizo's word.
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Do I agree with the whole "I'm burning/selling my Paizo products and never playing Starfinder again!" thing? No. Why deny yourself something you obviously enjoyed? That seems counter productive.
Obviously since Erik double-downed against all the warnings, now is completely silent on the issue, they dont care (to me) about their reputation with their players.
If you cant vote with your words to make change at a company, then you vote with your dollars, as hard as it might be. Unfortunately thats how businesses work now days.
In that light, does that not make them indictable for accessory to fraud should the nd investigations go ahead since they both helped sell the scam and profited from it?Repeat after me: Paizo is NOT LIABLE for Ninja Divisions problems.I've had this discussion previously.
Paizo became liable when, despite warnings to the contrary, they reassured backers that they had investigated those concerns and ND would not have any issues and fulfill the kickstarter.
Paizo didn't just hand a license over to ND, they SOLD the project to backers who knew better but went ahead anyways because they trusted Paizo's word.
Really, lets avoid discussing criminal stuff and the 'f' word. I think Summersnow was thinking more of a civil cause of action such as negligent referral.
Personally, not sold as others that Paizo has no civil liability under the basic Kickstarter, but I covered that in an earlier post. Why Paizo didn't demand changes to how the Kickstarter was presented is beyond me.
Correct, I don't believe Paizo did anything illegal or fraudulent (though the boats still out on Ninja Division in that regard) but I do believe Paizo is liable to backers as in they need to make every reasonable effort, even if it costs them some money, to come to a satisfactory resolution for the backers but not in the sense anyone could, or should take them to court.
Correct, I don't believe Paizo did anything illegal or fraudulent (though the boats still out on Ninja Division in that regard) but I do believe Paizo is liable to backers as in they need to make every reasonable effort, even if it costs them some money, to come to a satisfactory resolution for the backers but not in the sense anyone could, or should take them to court.
I totally agree. Paizo (so far) is fighting an uphill battle in the court of public opinion regarding their reputation. This fiasco will haunt them for a while next time they try to vouch for a 3rd party product. With v2.0 of PF coming out, their reputation ship hit the ND iceberg and so far they are just watching it slowly sink.
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As Realo Foxtrot was kind enough to point out above, each of these four kickstarter projects that Ninja Division set forth well exceeded the funding levels that Ninja Division determined were necessary to make the project viable.
Yeah, throughout this whole fiasco, I still can't wrap my head around each of their products being funded hundreds (and at least one case more than 1000?) of % over the asking price, and them still making up pie and bar charts claiming that they didn't get enough money.
I understand that a lot of that extra % will go to supplying the demand, but production costs per unit go down the more you produce (bulk order cost savings) and it's pretty hard to blow that much extra profit unless you go out for blackjack and hookers.
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Archon has a new update. Looks like you might be able to get Starfinder miniatures through Archon now
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Got a link?
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From what's been reported, I think they spent way too much time trying to improve some early products and make them better than originally advertised. That increased development times, leading to increased costs..... and here we are today.
How is that true unless you're paying yourself way too much money to run the project?
The sculptor doesn't get extra because the project is taking too long. Even doubling their fee to do it twice when you have 1.5 million on the line is a rounding error.
Shipping costs don't go up 150% in an extra year
And the factory doesn't cost 150% because you tried to take another whack at it out of the blue (and weren't paid anyway)
The factory and shipping costs weren't paid. What was paid was overhead (paying their own salaries) and "development" (which appears to be again, their salaries)
So how did they spend more to manage the project than they spent on the project? For a game book or at one extreme a PDF project that's one thing but on a physical product made in a factory where you have a huge amount of cost in buying raw materials and turning them into a finished product ?
And how did they manage to get 1500% of what they needed to fund a project and still only get 2/3rds of the money they needed on a project that gets vastly more efficient with scale?
Four. Times.
It's not straining credulity it's drawing and quartering it with a drift engine.
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Got a link?
Archon choke-slams Ninja Division under a bus
I got an auto-reply from that email within half an hour.
... we can not promise you anything, as we are currently still in discussions with third parties, but we may have a little something to compensate you for the loss of the project at our own expense.
Not exactly promising somehow. Loss of the project.
The autoreply said to expect a proper response in 2 days
It looks to me like Archon is taking heat on there own kickstarters and is promising to throw Starfinder Mini backers a bone to try and avoid fallout from Ninja Divisions actions.
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I understand that a lot of that extra % will go to supplying the demand, but production costs per unit go down the more you produce (bulk order cost savings) and it's pretty hard to blow that much extra profit unless you go out for blackjack and hookers.
One of the things that clued me into ND not being very business savvy was the fact that at the higher pledge tiers, the price per mini went up, which should disincentivize backers from pledging at the higher tiers. I realized this after creating a spreadsheet with all of the minis and tiers available at the time and doing the calculations. It's just bad business sense to increase the price per mini as someone orders more of them, so that, coupled with warnings from others about ND's past prompted me to not pledge, even though I dearly wanted Starfinder minis. I posted my findings here on the forums but it didn't seem to get much attention, unfortunately, as perhaps it could have helped others avoid throwing their money away.
Well, that thread does further the position of the folks arguing Paizo has a moral obligation as there are another two supportive posts for the kickstarter from the CCO/Publisher and one about the great deal this kickstarter is by the CEO. Both are on page two of the thread, the same page as Fumarole linked to.So now we have two threads where the CCO/Publisher and the CEO have posted to support the kickstarter campaign prior to conclusion, am I missing more? Is there a thread where either or both the CCO/Publisher and the CEO address this kickstarter in any way after the campaign ended?
There's the discussion in the Paizo Blog about it. Paizo didn't jump to assure backers that all will be fine until after the project ended. There were a lot of warnings posted before the Kickstarter ended though.
https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5lk78?Starfinder-Masterclass-Minia tures-Kickstarter#discuss