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I don’t think we know why wizkids turned them down originally. Sure it could be they simply did not have capacity at the time.

Perhaps they didn’t have confidence in potential sale numbers but paizo were now able to show their actual book sales the second time round; or they just saw the number of Kickstarter backers interested in minis?

On the other hand it could be they were simply offered a much better licensing deal the second time round by paizo with a view to just getting something to retail.

The problem is the optics. To me if paizo had any confidence in ninja division they wouldn’t be arranging for someone else to also publish the line. I don’t think it’s enough to distinguish them as one line is their painted line and the other is not. Ninja did release some pre-paints of their own sculpts and I’d be surprised, if the line also succeeds with wizkids, if it doesn’t end up in their own unpainted line as well.

All that said people keep referring to an ‘nda’ but even if there is one in place there is nothing stopping the release of information provided both parties consent. So if there is progress surely it’s in the interests of both parties to show us?

The lack of information and communication from both sides is what continues to upset backers.


Latest super dungeon explore update Is that their funds are being put into ‘relic knights’ to get that part fulfilled. Some mention of way of the fighter. .

I’ve lost any confidence that I’ll see anything from this Kickstarter and am presently in two minds as to whether to just drop starfinder altogether.


Interestingly they haven't posted anything on their other projects; at the time of this post anyway


Ninja have just started responding to comments:

Ninja profile.

I've posted them below for ease

NinjaDivision wrote:
"Thank you Taylor - We are indeed still alive, This snowball is terrible, but we are working on solutions for everyone. The rampant speculation is why we are only engaging with specific information - fighting this is exactly what the online bullies want"
NinjaDivision wrote:
"We are not a Ponzie scheme. A company that relies on other outside sources of income to plan and execute business can have a bad sales slump that puts things in jeopardy, that is not a Ponzie scheme, that is terrible economics for the company pulling the projects together, labeling us as "co-conspirators" or suggesting that we are breaking laws and committing fraud is not true or helpful in our efforts to get this delivered"
NinjaDivision wrote:
"Our business side hit a wall, and things are on pause so we can build up and get some financing to get your minis out - ... I think that is the most succinct answer I can give, thank you for hanging in there with us"
NinjaDivision wrote:
"Starting a new KS would be horridly irresponsible, we are, as stated in our documents, restructuring to secure more funding to delivery your delayed products."
NinjaDivision wrote:
"We are working through a financial process to loosen and deliver all outstanding KS products. We fell on hard times in the middle of a huge burst of growth for us, it squashed things and for a host of macro-economic reasons, as well as paltry sales on a few bad bets, things snowballed. This is NOT a ponzie scheme, no ones gotten rich, bought an island in the Camans or is driving around luxury cars trying to pull this together. Being side-swiped by a massively congested games market is NOT fraud."
NinjaDivision wrote:
"Rhyme and Reason We had to split shipments for all manner of global fans and backers, stocking and shipping full and complete orders to international distribution for groups, so that they werent sent out piecemeal. A chunk goes to Asia, Austrialia, UK, etc.. Quality of incoming products was in question frequently, and we had to remanufacture goods, and lots of them, interrupting some shipments when cash flow was not heavily interrupted. Lack of communications, visibility of process, shifting priorities, and undelivered promises on quality and volumes has been a monkey wrench in our planning as our reliance on the manufacturer took too long to show it was not working. We have our problems, and notated them. So did they. Our initial planning was 1) group by release wave, manufacture and release - move to wave 2. We eventually moved to "ship everything we can" and that meant, once the more manageable international shipping groupings were out the door, to start the bigger groups of US and UK backers with as much product as we could send, while we waited on more minis to arrive."


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Silas Stadatilas wrote:


Does Paizo really believe that these statements you quoted are anything more than lip service? I notice that you didn't quote that the Starfinder Masterclass Minature campaign is already listed as cost/expenditures already exceed the proceeds of the campaign, and that significant funds are needed to complete the campaign. (Sorry, don't know how to cut and paste in the bar graph) Plus, the three other projects listed are all incomplete and without funds to complete.

Off topic but spooky how close this was to my exact thoughts and yet posted only a few minutes apart.


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The update is lip service from them at best and doesn't really offer backers any real assurances.

Their cost overrun chart clearly shows they will not have the funds to finish the project. They haven't put out any new product in years so where is that money going to come from? As far as I can see there is nothing in the update dealing with this critical issue other than one sentence that they are "looking for investment".

Their other graph with product expenditure show funds on overhead (their own business expenses), royalties (presumably paid to Paizo) and project development. You will note that nothing has been paid out for manufacturing which accords with Archon's earlier statement.

I honestly cannot see how they expect to move forward.

Also this made me laugh:

"Ninja Division would like to request that backers from all of our outstanding projects direct your questions and inquiries to us."

But... we haven't had any real update for months (heck the update title is "breaking radio silence") and in the previous paragraph of this very update we have:

"With staff layoffs, we are unable to individually respond to all email and social media posts we receive"

Do they respond to any?

Edit: tidied up.


So if the mini sculpts were mostly done before the Kickstarter and they haven’t paid the manufacturer... where did our money go?

Uk all in pledge here and I haven’t seen a single mini. I don’t think anyone outside the states has and yet everyone paid postage last year regardless. Where did those postage funds go?

Backers continue to be ignored on all their projects.

Frankly I’m disgusted by the whole situation.


Rednal wrote:
*Rubs chin* I'm hesitant to lean on the law as a weapon, but sometimes I wonder if a really good Class Action lawsuit is necessary to get creators to be more responsible with the funds, either sequestering them to fulfill their stated obligations or, if using a different funding system, having some other acceptable plan in place. Creators are required to provide refunds if they can't fulfill their end of the bargain, but many of them seem to have no interest in doing that and Kickstarter is generally unwilling to enforce their own rules on the matter, even for things like stopping abusers from doing more crowdfunding through them in the future.

It will never happen (as it opens KS up to liability) but for big projects I'd really like to see Kickstarter set staged fund release so creators have to show progress prior to real progress and a plan before the release of the next tranche of funds.

I'm a SDE backer and despite the problems in that kickstarter backed this project on Paizo's assurances in this very thread.

Communication from ND has been very poor since the project was funded and when we have had updates they have often turned out to be incorrect or misleading. I am an "all in" backer and haven't had a single miniature as yet despite being into the "final wave" target date.

It is very worrying that their resin manufacturer has said that they are "on hold" having not been paid. I'm concerned that our funds may have already been appropriated elsewhere or to other projects.

This has really soured me to Starfinder in general.


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Here’s a good summary of all their other kickstarters

https://thelatenightplayers.wordpress.com/2018/11/12/ninja-division-soda-po p-miniatures-out-of-money-for-super-dungeon-explore-legends/

the following comment was made on the chronicle x Kickstarter -

“It won't be an official statement as we need to wait until Thursday when CEO of Archon will be holding a meeting with Ninja Division about this situation.

However, the fact is that we are on hold with all Ninja Division projects due to lack of payment (Starfider, Relic Knights as well as Humble Bundle - Paizo is still not paid). This should not, however, affect what we are doing, as external contracts are about 15% of total Archons turnover. The worst-case scenario is that Archon will have to cover all the manufacturing losses, and this could mean that some of our FUTURE internal projects could be delayed, but that's nothing major. Anyway, please wait for an official statement. We are all hoping that ND will find some solution. Thanks.”

Not sure the overlap with this project but if archon are the manufacturer sounds like a real issue


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EU here. November was meant to be the final wave of shipping. I have yet to have one mini delivered.

I’ve only myself to blame as I’m a backer of super dungeon explore and knew of the issues in that. Just came here to have a grumble so sorry all


Printed these 2x2 @ A3 which brings the squares up to a good size for minis. They Kept the detail better than the official maps from the digital ap

https://i.imgur.com/SXy769V.jpg

Kudos to the author