Miniatures Kickstarter Ninja Division


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GM Rednal wrote:

Negotiations between companies take time - if anything was fast or easy, I'm pretty sure Paizo would have already done it. As before, though, please do share if you have any ideas for what Paizo could do to make things better for fans (as long as they make sense for the company - violating NDAs or legal agreements with other businesses, for example, isn't going to happen).

I genuinely want to hear it if anybody has a reasonable idea based on the information we've been able to obtain.

A commitment from Paizo that they will utilize 100 percent of the gross funds that paizo received from this kickstarter will go to providing product or some other compensation to those who pledged. It won't get the backers all they were promised but will help some.

Note, I used the word 'gross' intentionally. I would hope that Paizo would take the position that it would be inappropriate for them to profit in any way, even through the payment of business expenses, from a kickstarter that involved their product that, that when concerns were raised the chief operating officer and the chief creative officer/publisher (see pages one and two of this thread) personally vouched for the kickstarter, that failed in the very manner that the thread warned about.

Paizo has already refused to confirm or deny that they have received funds from this kickstarter in this thread. It is a reasonable assumption that paizo got paid.

So does paizo think it is appropriate to keep funds received as part of this kickstarter, or is that another question that won't be addressed?


The miniatures are sitting in the manufacturers warehouse. But haven't been paid for. Something neither paizo or the manufacturer are happy with. They don't have cash and they're taking up space.

The following is all semi coherent inference from that information:

Paizo would probably like to take those miniatures, give the ones that were pre ordered to the customers, and sell the rest to pay the manufacturer whatever they can. I don't think paizo keeps that sort of cash lying around, and that probably runs into some problem with ninja division having some sort of distribution rights in an agreement with paizo.

So you need a three way agreement between

archon (who doesn't want to be burned as they have serious machinery, labor, and raw material costs dumped into this). I don't know what the rules are for manufacturing something for someone and then not getting paid for it. I'd imagine it becomes yours after a certain period of time.

paizo, who's name is on the line but probably has some agreement with ND keeping ND in the project.

and Ninja Division, who doesn't want to get cut out as the middleman and doesn't want to admit they're toast because they're trying to sell their business.

Ninja division doesn't HAVE any money. And paizo and archon would like to make as much (or more likely lose as little) as possible in the deal.


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Its further complicated by the fact that the backers already bought and paid for those mini's BNW.

Does Archon own the minis, or do the backers own the mini's? Is it legal for Archon to take the mini's the backers paid for, thereby "stealing" the minis the backers paid for to recover there own losses, leaving the backers hanging?

In fact I have a question for Sara Marie to pass along.

Is it even Legal for Paizo/ND/Archon to hold these talks without the backers having representation at those talks? Who speaks for the backers?

After all, its the backers money that funded this.

I mean when Paizo / Archon comes up with a deal it will most likely be geared to help Archon and Paizo first with the backers paying the price.

According to the terms of Kickstarter backers have a legal contract with the parties involved, ND/Paizo/Archon.

How are backers voices heard, how are they represented?

Why are backers NOT part of the Non disclosure agreements?

At what point does Paizo become completely liable for any damages backers suffer because they are keeping backers out of the discussion?


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Summersnow wrote:

Its further complicated by the fact that the backers already bought and paid for those mini's BNW.

Does Archon own the minis, or do the backers own the mini's? Is it legal for Archon to take the mini's the backers paid for, thereby "stealing" the minis the backers paid for to recover there own losses, leaving the backers hanging?

In fact I have a question for Sara Marie to pass along.

Is it even Legal for Paizo/ND/Archon to hold these talks without the backers having representation at those talks? Who speaks for the backers?

After all, its the backers money that funded this.

I mean when Paizo / Archon comes up with a deal it will most likely be geared to help Archon and Paizo first with the backers paying the price.

According to the terms of Kickstarter backers have a legal contract with the parties involved, ND/Paizo/Archon.

How are backers voices heard, how are they represented?

Why are backers NOT part of the Non disclosure agreements?

At what point does Paizo become completely liable for any damages backers suffer because they are keeping backers out of the discussion?

Never?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I don't see why backers would be owed any NDA information anyway. They didn't sign it, aren't a party to the process, and have no input into any NDA covered discussion.


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Silas Stadatilas wrote:
Ideas about giving things to backers.

I agree that trying to get stuff to backers would be good. The problem is if Paizo can't get everything to backers - if they could only get, say, 10% of the mini's with the profit they received, how do you decide who gets them? Do you give them to the people who invested the most, leaving the minor backers out of luck? Do you try to send one to everyone, which could mean some people getting everything they ordered and some people getting 1 out of a whole lot more? What about international backers, for whom shipping is way more expensive? No matter what they choose, somebody is probably going to say it's unfair - and might even try to bring legal action because of it.

I suppose there's creating another product to give to backers, like a unique adventure or PDF... but even then, some people might go "this isn't what I ordered and I don't even want to play Starfinder as a result of this debacle, why didn't you give me some mini's or something else?".

Point is, even asking Paizo to use the profits they got in a particular manner is difficult at best. (I'm assuming that Paizo probably values all backers - large and small - and wants to do right by everyone. Short of trying to get every mini everyone ordered, though, this is really, really hard. Which is one reason I've been asking people for ideas here. If there's some kind of group consensus on what could be done - something reasonable for Paizo to do as a business AND satisfactory to the huge majority of backers - maybe we can lobby enough to make it happen. It may not be all the mini's to everyone, but hopefully it would be better than absolutely nothing.)

Scarab Sages

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

I would like all my miniatures, I am sick of not having a miniature to represent my character or foes, especially as I now know such things exist, but are stuck in limbo.

Other than that, I would be happy with the 3d files and permission to print for personal use, either though my own 3D printer, or by a professional printer. I realise the chance of getting that is remote, as how do you control the files once they are out and about, but you asked what would make me happy.


Summersnow wrote:
Its further complicated by the fact that the backers already bought and paid for those mini's BNW.

definitely.

Quote:
Does Archon own the minis, or do the backers own the mini's?

I think Archon has the better claim. It's not the backers fault either but legally, the backers HAVEN"T bought and paid for the minis. The backers entered into an agreement with ND. The [ND/Backer barathu entity] has not paid Archon. It's not archons fault that the backers didn't pay them.


At this point I'm wondering

1) if Paizo will ever try another Kickstarter

and

2)If anyone would be gullible enough to back it

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

They just had a joint KS with Dynamite comics that was successful.

Liberty's Edge

Hi, long time lurker and first time posting. My husband and I backed this. We are in the UK. It looks like none of the UK and rest of Europe backers have received anything yet? My husband is a venture agent in the UK and we were hoping to use these minis to help get people excited about Starfinder in our lodge. My question to Sara Marie would be will the UK and rest of Europe ever get any of their minis? If not will we be compensated some how? Also Are you able to pull data from ND regarding how many backers they have provided some minis to, how many they have provided all minis to, and how many backers they have not yet provided any minis to?
The vast majority of the chat on here seems to be about the US backers but a lot of people in other countries have also backed this project and received nothing yet.
Thanks for all your help, it is much appreciated. :)


$100 US Backer here with no shipments. Decided to cancel all my Starfinder subscriptions until this mess is sorted out. I have lost confidence that Paizo is championing this product line without a clear sign of support to the backers and their customer base.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As a european backer i did not receive a single mini nor anything else from this kickstarter.

The higher shipping costs for international backers are already paid, because that had to be paid up front, as far as i remember. I definately paid more as the KS tier sum and i think that was shipping.
What is really outrageous if you think about it, because those shipping costs clearly did not go into shipping.

How can anyone run a business who thinks it's cool to pay overhead costs or anything else with money which is for shipping costs?


Ninja Division breaks radio silence:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/325468910/starfinder-masterclass-minia tures/posts/2420184


So, now we have 2 new charts that say, there was not a cent payed for production and all the money they received is already spent.


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Well ... I think that it is a good thing that they finally communicate to us backers...
But it also seems that... We are stuck... in a deadend...
The only exit would be someone investing in ND (buying it out?...)... that won't be new backers I guess... maybe a business Angel from Dragon's Den? (cf. Drake & Benjamin Mc Donald refusing to lose 40% of its company for the 300 000$ that would have allowed us to get our mini... Please Benjamin McDonald, stay out of the business...)
But with all theses Ponzi KickStarter... the price of the Ticket is high (even if they sell the company for 1$)...
That would be a very risky and bold move I imagine for Paizo to buy the ticket... However StarFinder is now their flagship (I had so many thing to buy in the future and now I am only selling what I already bought)... I understand that they take their time and hesitate...
So we are stuck...


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Good news! Public Forum from Ninja Division!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/325468910/starfinder-masterclass-minia tures/posts/2420184

No money, never intended to deliver. And as your customers warned, you were getting into business with a devious company that was known not to deliver. Personally would like to hear from Eric Mona as he was the person in the first page of this thread telling us

"We are aware of some of the issues with some of the earlier campaigns, but we are confident in the work that Ninja Division has shown us so far, in the Starfinder miniatures they have already produced and sold at Gen Con, and in their ability to deliver this project in the timeframe they have promised."

Shutting down this post and removing information was another bad move for Paizo. Where previously you had a location where your customers felt safe to come and get information and talk about an issue, you now have customers, me specifically, feeling as though we are being silenced because.... you want to protect a company that robbed your customers?

This does not add up. Do better.

Silver Crusade

For Starfinder Masterclass, the update mentions the sculpts are "fully re-engineered and ready for production", which would seem to indicate the manufacturer could start making them, they just need to be paid to begin work. Where would that money come from? It seems like Ninja Division is broke, so it's had to understand how any of this will be fulfilled.
In any sense, now that this update from ND is out, I hope Paizo will check into things and post their own update here.


Nice to know Paizo made $28k on this Kickstarter.


So I just got an email that, among trying to explain away the delays on SEVERAL products, not only SF Masterclass, mentioned that they laid off a lot of staff (all but 4 members) and will likely be unable to communicate in a timely manner BUT we should go to THEM with questions instead of any of their partners.

I think it's now obvious that since Ninja Division can no longer realistically keep any of their obligations, radio silence needs to end.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
ForeverQueen wrote:

Ninja Division breaks radio silence:

Link.

Linkified for ease of access.

technarken wrote:
Nice to know Paizo made $28k on this Kickstarter.

I fully expect them to attempt to fulfill the orders themselves. Whether or not that is possible remains to be see.


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What I find particularly interesting is that (using round numbers, for sake of simplicity (28,000 minis claim to be delivered, 2,300 backers)), ND attests that they have delivered a dozen miniatures to every backer. This is simply not the case.

While its nice to finally see *something* all this solidifies is what I feel like the community already knows. They are broke, but not declaring bankruptcy.

Assuming they had all the Starfinder miniatures printed and in hand, we would not be any closer to getting them, as they don't have funds to ship them. :/


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technarken wrote:
Nice to know Paizo made $28k on this Kickstarter.

Quick question, was the way you did the math: $457,539 (the amount Kickstarter lists the pledged amount at) times 6.3% royalties (as listed on the Starfinder Masterclass pie chart in Update #47 Breaking Radio Silenc) to give you $28,824.96.

Wasn't there an additional approximately $190,000 in funding? (Look at the comments under the Breaking Radio Silenc update, and I think there were posts earlier in this thread.) If so, then wouldn't the amount of royalties be more like $40k?

Just didn't know if you included after campaign pledges in your calculation or not.

Oh, just curious, did Ninja Division violate the NDA by releasing the percentage of royalties paid?

EDIT: mistyped Starfinder as Sartfinder.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Depends on the NDA. As a PFS volunteer, I’m under NDA for the information I am given, until Paizo or the OPF publicly releases that info themselves. Presumably ND is the authority that can release such info, provided it is not covered by another partners NDA.


Jeff Alvarez wrote:
We have complete faith in Ninja Division - Soda Pop to follow through with their promises in the Kickstarter or we would not have partnered with them.

Cancelled all of my Starfinder subscriptions a couple of months back... not throwing good money after bad.


Silas Stadatilas wrote:
technarken wrote:
Nice to know Paizo made $28k on this Kickstarter.

Quick question, was the way you did the math: $457,539 (the amount Kickstarter lists the pledged amount at) times 6.3% royalties (as listed on the Starfinder Masterclass pie chart in Update #47 Breaking Radio Silenc) to give you $28,824.96.

Wasn't there an additional approximately $190,000 in funding? (Look at the comments under the Breaking Radio Silenc update, and I think there were posts earlier in this thread.) If so, then wouldn't the amount of royalties be more like $40k?

Just didn't know if you included after campaign pledges in your calculation or not.

Oh, just curious, did Ninja Division violate the NDA by releasing the percentage of royalties paid?

EDIT: mistyped Starfinder as Sartfinder.

I did not include the post-campaign pledge money because I firmly believe ND just pocketed that along with the $35 I paid for shipping.

They can always claim that someone else got royalties, heck they can pay themselves royalties if they want thanks to how their companies are structured. Which is worse?


Is it me or, looking at those charts, does ND need half the cost of the project again to finish the project?


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UncleDredd wrote:
Jeff Alvarez wrote:
We have complete faith in Ninja Division - Soda Pop to follow through with their promises in the Kickstarter or we would not have partnered with them.
Cancelled all of my Starfinder subscriptions a couple of months back... not throwing good money after bad.

You do realize that none of Paizo's Starfinder subscriptions contain minis of any sort, right?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

The comments on the new Ninja Division update is pure gold.

People asking for the .stl files.... That would be glorious, but no way Paizo would let their IP into the wild... Would they?

Obvious no one is getting a refund.

Best comment so far is the guy saying they should go back and find the people who told everyone Ninja Division was shady and would take the money and run.... And thank them/apologize for not listening. lol... That was just gold.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/325468910/starfinder-masterclass-minia tures/posts/2420184


Is there anything to the claims of the absurdly large chunks of "development" as a separate expense to overhead?


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Yoshua wrote:

The comments on the new Ninja Division update is pure gold.

People asking for the .stl files.... That would be glorious, but no way Paizo would let their IP into the wild... Would they?

Obvious no one is getting a refund.

Best comment so far is the guy saying they should go back and find the people who told everyone Ninja Division was shady and would take the money and run.... And thank them/apologize for not listening. lol... That was just gold.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/325468910/starfinder-masterclass-minia tures/posts/2420184

Apology Accepted.

Though I would much rather this had worked out and everyone was right and could tell us "I told you so" when they said we were just being paranoid and could trust Paizo to keep ND in line.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Summersnow wrote:
Yoshua wrote:

The comments on the new Ninja Division update is pure gold.

People asking for the .stl files.... That would be glorious, but no way Paizo would let their IP into the wild... Would they?

Obvious no one is getting a refund.

Best comment so far is the guy saying they should go back and find the people who told everyone Ninja Division was shady and would take the money and run.... And thank them/apologize for not listening. lol... That was just gold.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/325468910/starfinder-masterclass-minia tures/posts/2420184

Apology Accepted.

Though I would much rather this had worked out and everyone was right and could tell us "I told you so" when they said we were just being paranoid and could trust Paizo to keep ND in line.

Taking the high road? Personally not accepting the apology, but I do accept my loss as I knew what I was getting in to and warned very loudly to anyone who would listen.

Personally I'll hold on to my I told You So card in the hopes that Paizo will eventually make this right.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Is it me or, looking at those charts, does ND need half the cost of the project again to finish the project?

It’s like they made bad calculations each time they did a kickstarter. They should have learned the first time round. Which seems odd, because there had to have been some bad project management going on for a long time to stretch across several Kickstarters gone wrong. How does that go unnoticed in a company?

Glad I listened to the warnings made about ND.
If I could buy new SF miniatures from Paizo, I would. I hope Paizo, ND and Archon can find an agreement. Because I would gladly subscribe to a Starfinder miniatures monthly if there was an option for that. But only from Paizo, because they will deliver.


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I'm disgusted. At this point i'm holding my breath hopping i'm wrong about paizo, I've always (for the last ten years anyway-that's close to always isn't it lol) preached up how awesome paizo was to my friends/family/customers, well im telling a different story now. My business partner (who doesn't really care what system we use/promote as he is new to roleplaying) said. "Its simple, if we want to cost Paizo the 400$ they cost us we simply stop pushing their products and advise all our customers why they aren't all they were cracked up to be. You've been playing dnd for almost 40 years Dave, your customers trust your judgement. They will listen and paizo will be out the 400 and then some in no time."

I don't want to do this, I just want some form of formal apology and some acknowledgement that Eric was wrong in backing them and advising us to do the same. If I don't hear from one of the big wigs (sorry sara I know you are doing your best but again I say you aren't the one that made the assurances) we will be implementing our Paizo smear campaign, then there will be no more paizo stuff ever put into my store and every smiling face WILL hear how they screw over their loyal customers.

Again not what I want, but my partner is just as upset and doesn't have near the love of Pathfinder that I have.


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David Holcomb wrote:
If I don't hear from one of the big wigs we will be implementing our Paizo smear campaign,

Veering into threats isn't the way to go about this, especially since Paizo is trying to work something out with Archon and can't really talk beyond what they've given us so far without violating NDAs and blowing up current legal discussions as has been explained.


Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
David Holcomb wrote:
If I don't hear from one of the big wigs we will be implementing our Paizo smear campaign,
Veering into threats isn't the way to go about this, especially since Paizo is trying to work something out with Archon and can't really talk beyond what they've given us so far without violating NDAs and blowing up current legal discussions as has been explained.

Not a threat.....28000+ is enough that im looking at the possible reality that ive been wrong about the "great" folks running Paizo. Also Threats seek instant gratification. Warnings maintain a bigger picture. I believe there exists a bigger picture in this case.


It is not a threat to say that if the 2500 people that backed this kickstarter (OK only 26 in France), stop buying Paizo Starfinder and sell what they already own ... they are losing between 2500 and 5000 customers (the second hand buyer won't buy) ... If everybody spend 100$ on average per year (as far as I have been concerned this was nothing for a long time then much more lately but mostly for PathFinder...this is what I have spend on Starfinder however)... this could cost them let's say around 500 000$ a year which is a small amount in front of Paizo Annual Revenue but will lessen very much their overall benefit...
I think it is not an easy decision that they have to take...


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You might want to look up the definitions of threat as well as smear campaign.


Fumarole wrote:
You might want to look up the definitions of threat as well as smear campaign.

Smear campaign may be a bit stronger than my intention relayed but I will totally protect myself and my customers from any game producer that seems unseemly. At least with Hasbro I know their goal is money. Again threats imply no action where as a warning says I will do this as much as I don't want to.


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SombreroDeLaNuit wrote:

It is not a threat to say that if the 2500 people that backed this kickstarter (OK only 26 in France), stop buying Paizo Starfinder and sell what they already own ... they are losing between 2500 and 5000 customers (the second hand buyer won't buy) ... If everybody spend 100$ on average per year (as far as I have been concerned this was nothing for a long time then much more lately but mostly for PathFinder...this is what I have spend on Starfinder however)... this could cost them let's say around 500 000$ a year which is a small amount in front of Paizo Annual Revenue but will lessen very much their overall benefit...

I think it is not an easy decision that they have to take...

I think it may be worse than that. The people that were backers in this kickstarter were early adopters and true believers. They are ones that buy books instead of going to the SRD, or, even better for Paizo, subscribe to product lines. These are the people that are enthusiastic about the product and help introduce it to other players. Those players buy product, introduce others, and thus we have a viable product line. Unfortunately, if players they feel burned by a company, and some obviously do, they aren't going to be great ambassadors for the game, but rather be negative toward it and the company. Not a good thing for Starfinder, or even Pathfinder 2.0.

What is worse is that when concerns were raised about Ninja Divisions poor record, Paizo's COO and Publisher both posted in this thread to give assurances that they believed in Ninja Division's ability to deliver on this kickstarter. Since there have been problems with the kickstarter, the COO and Publisher have both disappeared from the thread leaving Sara to try to clean up the mess.

I want to see Paizo succeed. I appriciate Sara's efforts, but I, personally, think it would be a good idea for the COO and Publisher to issue a joint statement on this thread.

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

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Hey folks, I apologize that I wasn't able to drop the link in the thread as soon as it was posted. Unfortunately the update occurred on a postal holiday when our office was closed.

I noticed that the links posted earlier were not working for me in case you're having the same issue, here is the link: Update #47 posted February 18th.

We appreciate seeing ND provide an update and we continue to encourage them to update their kickstarter backers that the Starfinder Masterclass Kickstarter remains active.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
David Holcomb wrote:
Fumarole wrote:
You might want to look up the definitions of threat as well as smear campaign.
Smear campaign may be a bit stronger than my intention relayed but I will totally protect myself and my customers from any game producer that seems unseemly. At least with Hasbro I know their goal is money. Again threats imply no action where as a warning says I will do this as much as I don't want to.

Threats do imply action. As much as I agree that apologies should be tendered when justified, the individuals responsible should be allowed to make mistakes without being dragged forever after.


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Sara Marie wrote:

Hey folks, I apologize that I wasn't able to drop the link in the thread as soon as it was posted. Unfortunately the update occurred on a postal holiday when our office was closed.

I noticed that the links posted earlier were not working for me in case you're having the same issue, here is the link: Update #47 posted February 18th.

We appreciate seeing ND provide an update and we continue to encourage them to update their kickstarter backers that the Starfinder Masterclass Kickstarter remains active.

That update says in no uncertain terms we have no money, no way of completing it and spent your money on other things....why are you promoting it as a good sign?


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Because we've been complaining about ND not communicating, and now they have. That's an improvement, even if we don't like what they say.


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The update was just a very formal, well written way of saying the same thing that was said during the robotech project they worked on, for 4-5 years before they admitted failure.

You got some of yer stuff, were working really, really hard on the rest and we'll get you your stuff someday.

All that's missing is the "This is the Year of Robotech, err, Starfinder", "Waiting on Quotes from China", "Part count reduction" and "Its the Shippers fault for charging so much!"


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kadance wrote:
Because we've been complaining about ND not communicating, and now they have. That's an improvement, even if we don't like what they say.

Let me rephrase his question then (I think this is the spirit of the question, please correct me if I'm wrong): That update says in no uncertain terms that Ninja Division has no money, no way of completing the Kickstarter and spent backer money on other things. .. . why is Paizo saying that the Starfinder Masterclass Kickstarter remains active when it is clear that there is no present ability, on the part of Ninja Division, to fulfill their obligations to backers and the update provides no reasonable indication that Ninja Division will ever have the ability to fulfill the obligations in the future?

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

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Silas Stadatilas wrote:


why is Paizo saying that the Starfinder Masterclass Kickstarter remains active ....
Ninja Division Update 47: February 18th, 2019 wrote:
Despite our current difficulties, Ninja Division continues to doggedly pursue any and all avenues we can to get products to backers...
Ninja Division Update 47: February 18th, 2019 wrote:

Q: Is Ninja Division bankrupt/out of business?

No. Ninja Division continues to operate and pursue all available avenues to continue all our brands and provide backers with their rewards.

Ninja Division Update 47: February 18th, 2019 wrote:

Q: Will I receive my rewards?

We have not given up. Every day we work towards the goal of delivering backers rewards and the revitalization of the brands and products we have spent a decade creating.


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The update is lip service from them at best and doesn't really offer backers any real assurances.

Their cost overrun chart clearly shows they will not have the funds to finish the project. They haven't put out any new product in years so where is that money going to come from? As far as I can see there is nothing in the update dealing with this critical issue other than one sentence that they are "looking for investment".

Their other graph with product expenditure show funds on overhead (their own business expenses), royalties (presumably paid to Paizo) and project development. You will note that nothing has been paid out for manufacturing which accords with Archon's earlier statement.

I honestly cannot see how they expect to move forward.

Also this made me laugh:

"Ninja Division would like to request that backers from all of our outstanding projects direct your questions and inquiries to us."

But... we haven't had any real update for months (heck the update title is "breaking radio silence") and in the previous paragraph of this very update we have:

"With staff layoffs, we are unable to individually respond to all email and social media posts we receive"

Do they respond to any?

Edit: tidied up.


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Sara Marie wrote:
Silas Stadatilas wrote:


why is Paizo saying that the Starfinder Masterclass Kickstarter remains active ....
Ninja Division Update 47: February 18th, 2019 wrote:
Despite our current difficulties, Ninja Division continues to doggedly pursue any and all avenues we can to get products to backers...
Ninja Division Update 47: February 18th, 2019 wrote:

Q: Is Ninja Division bankrupt/out of business?

No. Ninja Division continues to operate and pursue all available avenues to continue all our brands and provide backers with their rewards.

Ninja Division Update 47: February 18th, 2019 wrote:

Q: Will I receive my rewards?

We have not given up. Every day we work towards the goal of delivering backers rewards and the revitalization of the brands and products we have spent a decade creating.

Does Paizo really believe that these statements you quoted are anything more than lip service? I notice that you didn't quote that the Starfinder Masterclass Minature campaign is already listed as cost/expenditures already exceed the proceeds of the campaign, and that significant funds are needed to complete the campaign. (Sorry, don't know how to cut and paste in the bar graph) Plus, the three other projects listed are all incomplete and without funds to complete.

Seriously, does Paizo:

1. Still take the position that Ninja Division is a viable company?

2. Really ready to reaffirm earlier statements that they expect Ninja Division to be able to fulfill their obligations to the backers of this kickstarter? (Note, I didn't include timely because that is already out the window.)


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This situation has bummed me out enough that I've cancelled my weekly Starfinder game. I doubt Paizo cares, I'm not a subscriber and I only own about half of the Starfinder collection of books. The lack of awareness shown in picking their business partners coupled with the fact that Ninja Division's update has shown that there is not going to be a good resolution to this anytime soon (if at all), has really soured me on using Paizo games/systems.

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