|
The quality on the bones has been.. meh. If they're going plastic I can see why they wouldn't.
reaper has some nice non bones plastics and resins as well as there bones & in my experience there good about getting the product made.
but since there not doing this one, i have kickstarted then ninja division one :)
I specced out a set each for Adventure and Campaign and was surprised to find that the Campaign option means paying more for each mini (not including stretch goals and shipping). All slots that are equal across both options use the same minis/sets, and creature slots for Campaign use only 1-slot minis.
Adventure
$100
38 minis
$2.63 per mini
Campaign
$180
63 minis
$2.86 per mini
Given the pricing of the "slots" a straight comparison of $$/mini may not be reflective of actual value. YMMV.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
To answer the question from the previous page, we are indeed aware of some of the issues related to previous Kickstarters. We are totally confident in the quality of sculpts and figures Ninja Division has created for this Kickstarter, and in their ability to deliver their miniatures in the announced time frame. I am VERY confident that these minis are going to be great, and that backers will be very happy with them.
It's not appropriate for me to comment further on some of their non-Paizo Kickstarters except to say that the guys at Ninja Division have proven themselves to be exemplary partners so far, and I trust that they will deliver as promised.
According to info on this link, Ninja Division has failed to deliver on 4 other Kickstarter Campaigns.
That sounds kind of shady, to be honest.
|
It is always an adventurous idea to work together with a small unproven company when trying to introduce a new product.
Soda Pop Miniatures may or may not deliver their UNPAINTED resin Starfinder Kickstarter minis in time (2018).
They have already failed to deliver the Starfinder unpainted minis on time, which may not be so bad IF the delay will indeed be only until next week.
I'm more curious about the release date of the PAINTED Starfinder minis, and it's not reassuring in the least that they have been removed from the homepage.
As far as i can see, Ninja Division has so far almost exclusively had experience with unpainted resin miniatures, but next to none with prepainted plastic ones.
The problem is this:
They are a much smaller company than Paizo and already have their hands pretty full with other product lines they are publishing.
If Wizkids would publish a painted "Iconic Heroes" set, the price would be about $30 for six minis and they would be able to announce a release date that would be pretty accurate (with a month of delay possible).
Ninja Division offers five minis for about $40, but they can not offer a release date. If the minis quality will be very good, the price may be warranted.
The proble. i see is this:
Ninja Division/Soda Pop Miniatures won't be able to offer any other prepainted Starfinder minis beyond the four initially announced sets for the foreseeable future, as they are busy with fullfilling their Kickstarter obligations.
The demand for lots of other creature minis is there, but it won't be met by the market.
That's why it is problematic to partner with small unproven companys in my opinion.
If Starfinder would have been a moderate success, the supply would probably suffice.
With it being a massive success, the supply can't satisfy the demand.
Personally i bought lots of old Wizkids Star Wars minis and painted and assembled Warhammer 40K minis for the creatures and some Battlefleet Gothic and Full Thrust starships from ebay.
I'd rather spend my money on official products.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd encourage everyone that is considering pledging to read the comments thread on this Kickstarter before doing so. It's enough to keep me away and wait for the minis to hit retail before spending money.
|
In addition, it looks like the miniatures are going to be expensive; $10 for a medium:(
Where are people getting this idea that $10 is expensive for a mini??
Outside of Reaper's Bones line of minis, most standard 28mm -32mm "medium sized" humanoid shaped miniature is anywhere from $8 to $14 for metal. Buying a single plastic model is difficult to even find if not pre-assembled and on eBay or something similar. Resin models tend to be about $2 to $5 more then their equivalently sized metal
cousins. (I'm not considering pre-painted plastic minis that come in unit or assortment boxes)
This is one of the reasons I love the infinity line, yes they sell things in units for the most part but what you get is cheap per mini by comparison to a lot of other companies. Especially if you get them through sites that have regular discounts and sales like Miniature Market. Privateer press used to be close but their stuff has gone up in price since release and is closer to the industry standard mentioned above.
As an aside, I tend to stay away from Resin for creature models, Resin is more fragile then metal and tends to break where plastic bends (if only a little before inevitability breaking itself). They are also a nightmare to fix. Resin also chips sometimes which will ruin the aesthetic of your mini at the very least. If I have to get a resin model, I tend to go with something that is fairly bulky and solid without skinny(ish) protrusions, especially if they have a heaver part at either end (I'm looking at you most weapons and extended arms, holding weapons). I hate policing a mini on the table so the recklessness of others doesn't ruin/destroy them.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In addition, it looks like the miniatures are going to be expensive; $10 for a medium:(Where are people getting this idea that $10 is expensive for a mini??
Mostly, I get it from 6 years of playing Pathfinder. I usually pay $3-6 each for small or medium minis, only occasionally paying $8-10 if I find one that's absolutely perfect for what I'm looking for.
Will there ever be a prepainted line comparable to whats available for Pathfinder people can actually afford? I.e. Wizkids?
Or are we stuck with KickScammer, pay up front, get ignored as the project goes 6 months over and then get mini's that aren't nearly as nice as the pretty pics in the KS?
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I can't stand the concept of a Kickstarter for a company that's already established. To me it means the company couldn't find investors who felt the project was viable enough to support it, or they don't have the business acumen to have the capital for initial outlay.
Kickstarter is really about start ups getting a leg up, but more and more I see already established businesses using it to completely overfund their business.
This one only needed 50 grand to get funded, they're already 40 grand over that Mark. The stretch goals are simply ridiculously tiny for that amount of extr cash. One more sculpt for ten grand extra! This has gone from being a program to help entrepreneurs get something started to a pure money grab from businesses.
The last Kickstarter I followed that Paizo partnered with was the MMO that was being made. I watched that spiral into a burning heap as the developers changed design focus and went back on promised outcomes almost the moment it got funded.
It seems to be a no brainer for companies now.
" We'll take your money, and if we don't deliver there's nothing you can do as an investor"
I'm confused on something. ND just started a Kickstarter for SF minis. What are they supposed to release for the SF in the next few weeks?
The Kickstarter is for unpainted minis.
The prepainted ones are what they're releasing (hopefully) in the next week or two.
I'm confused on something. ND just started a Kickstarter for SF minis. What are they supposed to release for the SF in the next few weeks?
From this post by Paizo COO Jeff Alvarez (and various posts before and after that one), I think there will be some unpainted, resin minis arriving at Paizo in the next few weeks - a kind of "precursor" to the line being produced via kickstarter.
The prepainted line is a separate thing and is still on the way. There hasn't been a date of release set, as far as I can tell. From what I hear, people are expecting those early next year.
Reading between the lines, I think this kickstarter will also then generate the molds for a second batch of prepainted minis down the track.
I don't think this KS is tied to the prepainted minis currently available for preorder.
^
The above paragraphs are in descending order of confidence. By the last one, I'm basically just guessing, :p
I suspect if they do not there will be a great sound of an impending implosion, and it will not be a pretty one.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As for established companies using KS, that doesn't bother me really. Rather than being at the whims of investors or Banks they let the consumer themselves be the investors.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As for established companies using KS, that doesn't bother me really. Rather than being at the whims of investors or Banks they let the consumer themselves be the investors.
I understand that. But it's with no recourse to enforcement beyond Kickstarter saying "you bad boy!"
I've heard so many tales of Kickstarter making a ton of cash and delivering no product in the end due company issues. The money just disappears for the the investor, right into the pockets of the company.
Traditional business methods puts the risk in the companies hands and protects the consumer. Kickstarter puts the risk in the consumers hand and protects the business.
Ninja Division is a classic example. 4 successfully funded (heavily overfunded in fact) Kickstarter, none of which have delivered as promised despite the massive money input.
And here they are as a company doing it again, with no consequence to the business except bad press. At this point, Kickstarter should have completely shut their access to its program as a as is typical in dodgy business practice, they're just operating under pseudonyms to get around the enforcement policies.
It's my personal rant though, and I follow it by not investing in Kickstarter. Other people are fine to risk their money however they want.
I put this one in the very high risk, pretty low yield category.
There are companies out there already delivering beautiful sci fi minis for a really good price that will work for me and my group. The only thing I'm finding hard to source is the Kasatha (four arms). Reaper produces a four armed critter in sci fi, but it's aesthetic is very much not a Kasatha from Starfinder.
Where are people getting this idea that $10 is expensive for a mini??
"medium sized" humanoid shaped miniature is anywhere from $8 to $14 for metal.
6 bucks, 8 bucks, 8 bucks, 6 bucks for 2...
I don't do plastic (give me lead poisoning or give me death!) , so i don't know if resin is usualy more than metal but... that seems REALLY weird to me. If resin is more why wouldn't you make it out of metal instead?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Where are people getting this idea that $10 is expensive for a mini??
"medium sized" humanoid shaped miniature is anywhere from $8 to $14 for metal.
6 bucks, 8 bucks, 8 bucks, 6 bucks for 2...
I don't do plastic (give me lead poisoning or give me death!) , so i don't know if resin is usualy more than metal but... that seems REALLY weird to me. If resin is more why wouldn't you make it out of metal instead?
Personally, I love the prepainted plastic minis from Whizkids, Wizards of the Coast (or whoever they contract to make them), and others. I'm not an artist, so I prefer prepainted figs that I can just put down on a table and use with no additional work. At Gen Con, I spent half an hour at one booth in the vendor hall searching through their bins of them, and ended up buying 7 or 8 of them for only $4 each. They also had some pretty good large sized ones in bins for $8 each.
Fromper even found a pre-painted Tengu I didn't have, for an added bonus!
As for established companies using KS, that doesn't bother me really. Rather than being at the whims of investors or Banks they let the consumer themselves be the investors.I understand that. But it's with no recourse to enforcement beyond Kickstarter saying "you bad boy!"
I've heard so many tales of Kickstarter making a ton of cash and delivering no product in the end due company issues. The money just disappears for the the investor, right into the pockets of the company.
Traditional business methods puts the risk in the companies hands and protects the consumer. Kickstarter puts the risk in the consumers hand and protects the business.
Ninja Division is a classic example. 4 successfully funded (heavily overfunded in fact) Kickstarter, none of which have delivered as promised despite the massive money input.
And here they are as a company doing it again, with no consequence to the business except bad press. At this point, Kickstarter should have completely shut their access to its program as a as is typical in dodgy business practice, they're just operating under pseudonyms to get around the enforcement policies.
It's my personal rant though, and I follow it by not investing in Kickstarter. Other people are fine to risk their money however they want.
I put this one in the very high risk, pretty low yield category.
There are companies out there already delivering beautiful sci fi minis for a really good price that will work for me and my group. The only thing I'm finding hard to source is the Kasatha (four arms). Reaper produces a four armed critter in sci fi, but it's aesthetic is very much not a Kasatha from Starfinder.
Oh, I agree that Kickstarter should be better about protecting the backers, and I am extremely wary about this Kickstarter in particular.
My previous comment was in general, to which I add even in traditional business methods the risk is still on the consumer even if you are more readily able to get a refund* from retailers (No Man's Sky comes to mind). Which goes to each specific company and how they choose to deal with complaints and offering refunds, and has very little to do with how the object was funded.
For example, I buy through Paizo for their products, directly from the company rather than a retailer or distributer, which is what you're doing when you're backing a KS, paying a producer directly. Anytime I have an issue though Paizo has went beyond expectations in handling and rectifying it. That's them being an awesome business.
Another awesome business I would say is Frog God Games. I backed the Blight almost 2 years ago and have only recently gotten my physical copy (which I love). On the forums here one backer was not pleased with the delays and asked for a refund. The Frogs gladly obliged.
So protecting the consumer and fulfilling requests for refunds lies on the company, and the standards vary from company to company. Not all are awesome like Paizo and FGG, and it doesn't really have anything to do with it being traditionally funded or Kickstarter funded.
*Most video game retailers I know don't offer refunds if the game has been opened and played, just exchanges for a diminishing amount.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
As far as Kickstarter goes, I feel like developers should be legally obligated to provide updates on a specific schedule - say, monthly at the most. They don't have to be detailed 10-page explanations of every little thing they've done, but developers should stay in regular contact, explain what's going on, and generally remain visible. Accountability is important, after all, especially if Kickstarter wants to grow and expand.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As far as Kickstarter goes, I feel like developers should be legally obligated to provide updates on a specific basis - say, monthly at the most. They don't have to be detailed 10-page explanations of every little thing they've done, but developers should stay in regular contact, explain what's going on, and generally remain visible. Accountability is important, after all, especially if Kickstarter wants to grow and expand.
I agree.
Update from Jeff.
Hey Marco, I believe that they are rebuilding the Starfinder miniatures section of their site now that the Kickstarter is live. And we should have stock of the Starfidner resin Iconic miniatures that were pre-released at Gen Con in a few weeks. They are included in the current Kickstarter campaign but will also be available apart from it for some amount of time. I'm not trying to be cagey, I honestly do not know how long we will have the ability to get stock between now and when the Kickstarter is fulfilled.
There is no way resin should be more than metal. None. More than $5-$7 for a medium metal mini (assuming no game support cards/tokens etc) is just too much. Reaper Bones are much cheaper and certainly good enough for "table ready" minis. Resin is fragile and light, and any extra detail you get isn't worth the extra effort of treating them like faberge eggs. In my experienced opinion.
More detail is exactly why resin costs more than metal. Owning metal Reaper minis and resin Kingdom Death minis I can very easily see the reason for the increased price. The quality difference is noticeable from a distance even.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
There is no way resin should be more than metal. None. More than $5-$7 for a medium metal mini (assuming no game support cards/tokens etc) is just too much. Reaper Bones are much cheaper and certainly good enough for "table ready" minis. Resin is fragile and light, and any extra detail you get isn't worth the extra effort of treating them like faberge eggs. In my experienced opinion.
Hey TwoWolves, I know the Kickstarter is a little complicated, but I think that you're missing the big picture. Currently for the $100 pledge level, you are getting 36 miniatures which equates to roughly $2.78 each and as the KS campaign continues to surpass stretch goals, you keep getting more and more free minis.
I'd say under $3 for an awesome, super-detailed resin miniature is a pretty good deal!
Skittermander squad!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have backed something like a half-dozen other projects.
They all have been exceptionally communicative and aware that they have the money and well-wishes of their backers, and treat it with the gravity that it deserves.
However, this is the first KS that I am exceptionally reluctant to look at, because it feels too much like the KS convention, which wasn't really... well, optimal.
I hope that I'm wrong. I want to get a nice Vesk mini at some point. But I can't commit if I have this nagging doubt, even a $1, if they haven't been able to follow through on *multiple* KS.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thank GAWD! I was able to cancel my pledge. Pre-painted or nothing.
I did the same. I knew there were unpainted minis when I pledged, but there's a lot of coloured illustrations on the page which made me think there were some prepainted minis too.
Once I understood the prepainted line is completely separate from these, I cancelled.
still 36 minis for under 2 bucks? i could deal....besides i have paint for this short of thing thanks in part to warhammer and its you must build it all yourself moto, and this way i make them look my own way.
Of course, there is the possibility that you will not get the minis at all. Ninja Division has failed to deliver on four other Kickstarters so far.
There is no way resin should be more than metal. None. More than $5-$7 for a medium metal mini (assuming no game support cards/tokens etc) is just too much. Reaper Bones are much cheaper and certainly good enough for "table ready" minis. Resin is fragile and light, and any extra detail you get isn't worth the extra effort of treating them like faberge eggs. In my experienced opinion.Hey TwoWolves, I know the Kickstarter is a little complicated, but I think that you're missing the big picture. Currently for the $100 pledge level, you are getting 36 miniatures which equates to roughly $2.78 each and as the KS campaign continues to surpass stretch goals, you keep getting more and more free minis.
I'd say under $3 for an awesome, super-detailed resin miniature is a pretty good deal!
No, I totally understand how Kickstarter works in general as well as this Kickstarter in particular. My comment was not directly about the value of THIS Kickstarter, just metal vs plastic vs resin.
But still, $100 for 36 fragile resin minis isn't for me. I have backed or contributed to three Reaper Bones Kickstarters and gotten WAY more minis for my investment, including some very large monsters that I would NEVER have gotten in metal due to price. Bones may not hold the same level of detail, but I can literally throw my painted Bones mini across the room or off the roof or into a Tupperware box with dozens of others like it with no fear of breaking the model. Every other resin mini I've ever painted had to be treated like a vial of nitroglycerine.
Thank GAWD! I was able to cancel my pledge. Pre-painted or nothing.
I actually wouldn't be backing if it WAS pre-painted. I have never been impressed with pre-painted miniatures. On miniatures as detailed as these should be, I see a basic pre-painted job on them looking worse than even just a white basecoat.
As far as the complaints from other Kickstarter projects leaking into the Starfinder project, it's getting kind of old at this point. I would be surprised if I added up all the comments made so far and didn't find the majority of them were from people backing at the $1 pledge just so they could warn other people off from backing.
I read the comments and the history on the past projects, but still feel comfortable enough to back, but it's getting old when I go to the comments hoping to read conversation about the project or comments from ND but just find a bunch of comments from people telling me I'm an idiot if I back this project.
But still, $100 for 36 fragile resin minis isn't for me. I have backed or contributed to three Reaper Bones Kickstarters and gotten WAY more minis for my investment, including some very large monsters that I would NEVER have gotten in metal due to price. Bones may not hold the same level of detail, but I can literally throw my painted Bones mini across the room or off the roof or into a Tupperware box with dozens of others like it with no fear of breaking the model. Every other resin mini I've ever painted had to be treated like a vial of nitroglycerine.
I guess it depends on the type of Resin. I've used a lot of resin miniatures for games like Blood Bowl, where the miniatures are constantly handled, knocked around and laid down on the board, and haven't had issues with them breaking.
Maybe if I was worried the people I play with would be rough with the miniatures I'd be concerned, but in that event I'd be worried if they were made out of metal also. I'd rather have highly detailed miniatures and be a bit more careful with them than lower detailed miniatures that could be stepped on with no worries, but it's all preference.
The comment on it from ND in the KS comments:
"We are committing to resin manufacturing, and have several manufacturing partners to consider before aligning to a specific one - different materials are used, we require that the resin is resistant to brittle breakage, and has a little flexibility to aid with demolding and prevent breakage - but other than that, we will determine before going to final."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Okay, they don't even know the manufacturer yet. I'm out.
Okay, they don't even know the manufacturer yet. I'm out.
That post was made on the 28th, so it's possible they've picked one now.
As far as Kickstarter goes, I feel like developers should be legally obligated to provide updates on a specific basis - say, monthly at the most. They don't have to be detailed 10-page explanations of every little thing they've done, but developers should stay in regular contact, explain what's going on, and generally remain visible. Accountability is important, after all, especially if Kickstarter wants to grow and expand.I agree.
Saw this post and, now that my knee-jerk reaction has worn off, I don't agree that legally mandated updates would be wise, though I absolutely agree that increased communication and visibility is paramount, along with accountability.
Unfortunately, it can be hard to get people to follow through on communicating without some sort of push. Mind you, there are ways that this could be made easier - automated reminders from Kickstarter, for example, that can bring creators right to the update page. It doesn't have to be particularly burdensome on creators to even remember the schedule - but I feel like there should be some kind of push towards better communication, not just "oh, we hope they'll do it". Because, unfortunately, that often doesn't work.
(Also, I should note that by 'legally', I mean 'in the agreement creators sign when using Kickstarter', not 'call your legislator'.)
Can I call your legislator.