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Thank you!
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*Peeks into thread*
*Gets a overwhelming sense of Déjà vu*
*snickers and walks away*
(Oh yes, the Pharasmin's are there to keep an eye on the undead, and undermine them both violently and non-violently.
Although, I could see another function of the church there. Say a undead got tired of its existence. Maybe it had second thoughts? experienced a religions epiphany? or just has become ground down by the ennui of its existence? The church would be the perfect candidate to step in, and help these "lost souls" peacefully transition into death. Think of it as the church providing a possibility of euthanasia, for a group that might not have access to it because laws, religion or traditions.)
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Well, that's interesting. I was thinking there were actual undead Pharasmins worshiping The Lady of Graves, because they view the undeath they no longer remember choosing as a sort of original sin they're trying to redeem themselves from.I was kind of hoping that it would turn out that, thousands of years after the time of PF/Golarion, Pharasma would have become a bit more enlightened in her thinking and decided that those souls did not immediately migrate to the River of Souls after death were still a part of the process of life/death/rebirth and come to embrace them as well. At the very least, she'd be able to expand her own body of worship by doing so, and considering that undeath does not necessarily equate to evil (increasingly in SF, it would seem), an expanded view of the process would serve her well.
I don't think she cares about expanding her followers. I mean, if the goddess of life and death, who may be the oldest being in existence, says that undead are a perversion of the natural order of life and death, there's every reason to take her at her word. She can't just 'decide' to be 'more enlightened' and give undead a pass. That would be like a lion deciding to become more enlightened and eat rocks instead of wildebeest; it isn't consistent with her nature, and wouldn't work anyway.
I find the dehumanizing of a desperate people driven to desperate acts very unsettling.
We know that non-evil undead exist on Eox. Why is that not enough?
You can't dehumanize someone who wasn't human to begin with. Undead are by their very nature anathema to life, even if they don't ping as evil on a paladin's radar, to someone for whom the natural cycle of birth, life, death is the most important thing in the world, undead are the enemy, a perversion of nature.
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They were human once.
They're very clear about that.
Elebrians were humanoid, but they weren't human. But anyway, I meant undead. They may have been made from human corpses, but by their very nature they're not human.
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And that makes it okay to destroy them.
And all those innocent undead people just making do in the cities, good riddance to them, is that it.
What's the point of exploring space if you're going to think of everything in absolutes.
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When I said remains to be seen I was referring to the fact that all the Undead in Dead Suns were Evil. The Devs have claimed that but they haven't stated it in the books yet or why that change occurred in-universe. And while they could change their alignment it certainly wasn't as easy as a Humanoid like an Orc doing so.
As far as this part, there are almost certainly going to be non-Evil undead, and I can say this with about 90% certainty for one reason: The upcoming Pact Worlds book (coming March 2018) is going to have a playable Eoxian race... and I *highly* doubt Paizo's going to put an alignment restriction on a playable race. Now maybe it might be like the Drow, where PCs are 99% of the non-evil population, but even Pathfinder-Timeline Golarion is starting to realize non-Evil Drow exist.
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'You can't do this! Our worlds signed a pact binding us together!' 'You... will never rule Eox!'
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'You can't do this! Our worlds signed a pact binding us together!' 'You... will never rule Eox!'
And thats when the Bone Sages decided to fire their weapon again (after rebuilding) and destroy Absalom Station.
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'You can't do this! Our worlds signed a pact binding us together!' 'You... will never rule Eox!'
Nyarlathotep is pleased by the chaos you sow.
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And thats when the Bone Sages decided to fire their weapon again (after rebuilding) and destroy Absalom Station.'You can't do this! Our worlds signed a pact binding us together!' 'You... will never rule Eox!'
Well guys, have fun wrecking your own planet, I am sure it will work better this time!
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Well guys, have fun wrecking your own planet, I am sure it will work better this time!And thats when the Bone Sages decided to fire their weapon again (after rebuilding) and destroy Absalom Station.'You can't do this! Our worlds signed a pact binding us together!' 'You... will never rule Eox!'
Ummm....I'm an android, not undead. I just happen to believe that Eoxians are people too, just like Androids.
As far as wrecking the planet, the damage has already been done. It really can't get that much worse. Also, a lot less power is needed to blow up a space station than was required to destroy two planets.
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'You can't do this! Our worlds signed a pact binding us together!' 'You... will never rule Eox!'
Very 40k-esque!
The God-Emperor of Mankind approves!
*Now imagining Pharasmins, in bulky power armors, charging over a blasted landscape, guns blazing, towards lines of undead troops blowing away at with laser weaponry. A fleet of Warships pounding continents with seismic warheads, until the planet crust cracks and buckles. Billions upon billions wiped out as planet after planet is cleansed by the righteous forces of The Pact*
I, for one, welcome our new genocidal overlords!
(Hopes for Warfinder as the next setting ^^' )
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Well guys, have fun wrecking your own planet, I am sure it will work better this time!And thats when the Bone Sages decided to fire their weapon again (after rebuilding) and destroy Absalom Station.'You can't do this! Our worlds signed a pact binding us together!' 'You... will never rule Eox!'
Ummm....I'm an android, not undead. I just happen to believe that Eoxians are people too, just like Androids.
As far as wrecking the planet, the damage has already been done. It really can't get that much worse. Also, a lot less power is needed to blow up a space station than was required to destroy two planets.
If the Eox can have the Corpse fleet flying around attacking people and not face reprisals because it "is not" under their control anymore, then I am afraid by the same token they would have (un)live with hardcore fundamentalists also not officially supported by any world. In destroying another Pact world, all they would accomplish is the eradication of themselves from the system as the other worlds take action against them. Not an attractive option for anyone with brains in their heads, but then again, I suppose theirs rotted aeons ago.
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Actually, this is paraphrased from Guardians of the Galaxy. The speech given by Ronan the Accuser.'You can't do this! Our worlds signed a pact binding us together!' 'You... will never rule Eox!'
Very 40k-esque!
The God-Emperor of Mankind approves!
*Now imagining Pharasmins, in bulky power armors, charging over a blasted landscape, guns blazing, towards lines of undead troops blowing away at with laser weaponry. A fleet of Warships pounding continents with seismic warheads, until the planet crust cracks and buckles. Billions upon billions wiped out as planet after planet is cleansed by the righteous forces of The Pact*
I, for one, welcome our new genocidal overlords!
(Hopes for Warfinder as the next setting ^^' )
Finally, someone gets the reference.
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(I kind of thought several people - including me - had gotten it...) XD
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(I kind of thought several people - including me - had gotten it...) XD
Er... first one to pipe up about it then? XD
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If the Eox can have the Corpse fleet flying around attacking people and not face reprisals because it "is not" under their control anymore, then I am afraid by the same token they would have live with hardcore fundamentalists also not officially supported by any world. In destroying another Pact world all they would accomplish is the eradication of themselves from the system as the other worlds take action against them. Not an attractive option for anyone with brains in their heads, but then I suppose theirs rotten aeons ago.
My statement was under the assumption that the Pharasmins assault Eox openly and with the Pact Worlds doing nothing about it. At that point Eox might as well be openly at war with all the Pact Worlds, and would in response use devastating force to remove a symbol of that threat.
My understanding currently of the base setting of Starfinder is that the Corpse Fleet of Eox doesn't just go around killing or destroying other members of the Pact Worlds (hence the pact).
If the Corpse Fleet did start attacking people it would be reprisals for the rest of the Pact Worlds allowing the Pharasmins to operate openly against them.
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If the Eox can have the Corpse fleet flying around attacking people and not face reprisals because it "is not" under their control anymore, then I am afraid by the same token they would have live with hardcore fundamentalists also not officially supported by any world. In destroying another Pact world all they would accomplish is the eradication of themselves from the system as the other worlds take action against them. Not an attractive option for anyone with brains in their heads, but then I suppose theirs rotten aeons ago.My statement was under the assumption that the Pharasmins assault Eox openly and with the Pact Worlds doing nothing about it. At that point Eox might as well be openly at war with all the Pact Worlds, and would in response use devastating force to remove the a symbol of that threat.
My understanding currently of the base setting of Starfinder is that the Corpse Fleet of Eox doesn't just go around killing or destroying other members of the Pact Worlds (hence the pact).
If the Corpse Fleet did start attacking people it would be reprisals for the rest of the Pact Worlds allowing the Pharasmins to operate openly against them.
The Corpse Fleet of Eox is a supposedly rogue faction of the eoxian military who allegedly defected because they disagreed with the signing of the Pact, though many in-universe believe this to just be a front for Eox to have a military unit that they can claim no responsibility for its actions.
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(I kind of thought several people - including me - had gotten it...) XD
I didn't get it, I thought it was Doctor Klaw from Inspector Gadget.
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The Corpse Fleet of Eox is a supposedly rogue faction of the eoxian military who allegedly defected because they disagreed with the signing of the Pact, though many in-universe believe this to just be a front for Eox to have a military unit that they can claim no responsibility for its actions.
Hmmm...I don't recall that, but since the setting is new I might have just missed it or remembered incorrectly.
Regardless, if that's the case then it is justifiable to destroy the Corpse Fleet (because they are harming innocents presumably). But that's not justification for destroying all Eoxians, unless Eox does nothing against them.
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The Corpse Fleet of Eox is a supposedly rogue faction of the eoxian military who allegedly defected because they disagreed with the signing of the Pact, though many in-universe believe this to just be a front for Eox to have a military unit that they can claim no responsibility for its actions.If the Eox can have the Corpse fleet flying around attacking people and not face reprisals because it "is not" under their control anymore, then I am afraid by the same token they would have live with hardcore fundamentalists also not officially supported by any world. In destroying another Pact world all they would accomplish is the eradication of themselves from the system as the other worlds take action against them. Not an attractive option for anyone with brains in their heads, but then I suppose theirs rotten aeons ago.My statement was under the assumption that the Pharasmins assault Eox openly and with the Pact Worlds doing nothing about it. At that point Eox might as well be openly at war with all the Pact Worlds, and would in response use devastating force to remove the a symbol of that threat.
My understanding currently of the base setting of Starfinder is that the Corpse Fleet of Eox doesn't just go around killing or destroying other members of the Pact Worlds (hence the pact).
If the Corpse Fleet did start attacking people it would be reprisals for the rest of the Pact Worlds allowing the Pharasmins to operate openly against them.
While the conspiracy theory might be true, it also might not be. And if the Eoxians aren't lying, then blaming Eox for the Corpse Fleet is no better than blaming Absalom Station for any pirates that happen to be human.
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Good Pharasmins will teach Good undead about the cycle of souls and how it sustains the whole of reality through life and death. They will show them that once they are destroyed they will be judged dispassionately by the goddess and sent to the reward their Good soul deserves. And they will offer their help in transitioning peacefully to death, ie back to the cycle. If the undead still clings to unlife after being thus enlightened, they will tearfully end its corruptive existence and free its soul
That is if they reach the Good undead before their Evil Pharasmin brethren do
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While the conspiracy theory might be true, it also might not be. And if the Eoxians aren't lying, then blaming Eox for the Corpse Fleet is no better than blaming Absalom Station for any pirates that happen to be human.The Corpse Fleet of Eox is a supposedly rogue faction of the eoxian military who allegedly defected because they disagreed with the signing of the Pact, though many in-universe believe this to just be a front for Eox to have a military unit that they can claim no responsibility for its actions.If the Eox can have the Corpse fleet flying around attacking people and not face reprisals because it "is not" under their control anymore, then I am afraid by the same token they would have live with hardcore fundamentalists also not officially supported by any world. In destroying another Pact world all they would accomplish is the eradication of themselves from the system as the other worlds take action against them. Not an attractive option for anyone with brains in their heads, but then I suppose theirs rotten aeons ago.My statement was under the assumption that the Pharasmins assault Eox openly and with the Pact Worlds doing nothing about it. At that point Eox might as well be openly at war with all the Pact Worlds, and would in response use devastating force to remove the a symbol of that threat.
My understanding currently of the base setting of Starfinder is that the Corpse Fleet of Eox doesn't just go around killing or destroying other members of the Pact Worlds (hence the pact).
If the Corpse Fleet did start attacking people it would be reprisals for the rest of the Pact Worlds allowing the Pharasmins to operate openly against them.
Or blaming it for Phasmarins who happen to be human...
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Actually, this is paraphrased from Guardians of the Galaxy. The speech given by Ronan the Accuser.'You can't do this! Our worlds signed a pact binding us together!' 'You... will never rule Eox!'
Very 40k-esque!
The God-Emperor of Mankind approves!
*Now imagining Pharasmins, in bulky power armors, charging over a blasted landscape, guns blazing, towards lines of undead troops blowing away at with laser weaponry. A fleet of Warships pounding continents with seismic warheads, until the planet crust cracks and buckles. Billions upon billions wiped out as planet after planet is cleansed by the righteous forces of The Pact*
I, for one, welcome our new genocidal overlords!
(Hopes for Warfinder as the next setting ^^' )
Finally, someone gets the reference.
Clearly, the only way to defeat them is with a team of breakdancing zombies.
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'You can't do this! Our worlds signed a pact binding us together!' 'You... will never rule Eox!'
Cool story, bro. Same time and place next week? My electroencephalon should be done by then.
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Good Pharasmins will teach Good undead about the cycle of souls and how it sustains the whole of reality through life and death. They will show them that once they are destroyed they will be judged dispassionately by the goddess and sent to the reward their Good soul deserves. And they will offer their help in transitioning peacefully to death, ie back to the cycle. If the undead still clings to unlife after being thus enlightened, they will tearfully end its corruptive existence and free its soul
That is if they reach the Good undead before their Evil Pharasmin brethren do
Not quite. If the good undead are undead because of their determination to achieve some good goal, the good Pharasmin will either assist in the completion of the goal, wait for the completion of the goal, or provide some other way to ensure the goal is reached. Then they will proceed as above, if needed.
you could still say that the same undead who have been living there are the same from before that started the whole thing. if you truly want to atone remove your undeath the act of being one no mater how much good you do is still cheating and not completing the cycle.
The problem is that this bears no semblance of proof.
Good Pharasmins will teach Good undead about the cycle of souls and how it sustains the whole of reality through life and death. They will show them that once they are destroyed they will be judged dispassionately by the goddess and sent to the reward their Good soul deserves. And they will offer their help in transitioning peacefully to death, ie back to the cycle. If the undead still clings to unlife after being thus enlightened, they will tearfully end its corruptive existence and free its soul
That is if they reach the Good undead before their Evil Pharasmin brethren do
"The only good thing you can do, now, is die." is a really hard sell. Probably not impossible, but really hard.
Especially when compared to, "Don't use your eternal existence to make things better for others - you dying will be much better than improving health care, feeding the poor, and ensuring equality."
And that's where good people start fighting about things.
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Actually, this is paraphrased from Guardians of the Galaxy. The speech given by Ronan the Accuser.'You can't do this! Our worlds signed a pact binding us together!' 'You... will never rule Eox!'
Very 40k-esque!
The God-Emperor of Mankind approves!
*Now imagining Pharasmins, in bulky power armors, charging over a blasted landscape, guns blazing, towards lines of undead troops blowing away at with laser weaponry. A fleet of Warships pounding continents with seismic warheads, until the planet crust cracks and buckles. Billions upon billions wiped out as planet after planet is cleansed by the righteous forces of The Pact*
I, for one, welcome our new genocidal overlords!
(Hopes for Warfinder as the next setting ^^' )
^^'
I stand by my comment! It simply means, that this Ronan character is as avid a tabletop gamer as I!
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The Undead of Eox aren't people. They are undead, they may be citizens by the terms of the Pact, but they are undead and are to be treated as such. Take a look at First Contact, the bone sages don't have racial statistics and are NPCs only.
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"not all undead Eoxians are monsters"
"there are undead creatures who are not automatically "monsters" just because they are undead."
Developer statements tend to be that undead are not automatically monsters and should be treated as sentient citizens of the Pact Worlds. Just because PCs can't play on of the few immortal bone sages, doesn't mean we won't get playable undead races in the Alien Archive.
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I don't know about Alien Archive, but as I mentioned a playable undead Eoxian race is specifically called out as something that will be in The Pact Worlds early 2018.
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And that makes it okay to destroy them.
And all those innocent undead people just making do in the cities, good riddance to them, is that it.
What's the point of exploring space if you're going to think of everything in absolutes.
Belief in absolutes is pretty inherent to faith, generally speaking (I'm sure there are exceptions). It doesn't matter where you are. If belief in Pharasma includes believing that undead are an abomination, it doesn't matter if you're a neolithic hunter-gatherer in the Realm of the Mammoth Lords or a technocrat in the most advanced society yet known. The Lady of Graves says undead are a perversion of life's natural processes, so they are. Whether I'm shooting them with arrows or lasers is immaterial.
Of course, an Urgathoan is going to have a whole different set of absolute beliefs. Maybe they think that undead are what everyone should strive to become. But they're still going to have some absolute beliefs.
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It doesn't mean they all do. Just like not all undead need to be evil, nor should you, in a more modern world, smite them before at least trying to talk it out.
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It doesn't mean they all do. Just like not all undead need to be evil, nor should you, in a more modern world, smite them before at least trying to talk it out.
Because undeath is evil. It is a corruption of the natural cycle of life and death, which prevents their souls from joining the River of Souls and getting their reward in the Great Beyond.
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Not all the time, obviously. :-)
Death is complicated.
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Every single time, as far as I believe Pharasma is concerned. If the undead is not evil, I think the way good Pharasmins help them along is to help them finish whatever their unfinished business was before helping them move on to the afterlife.
I'd be willing to accept any canon example of Pharasma acknowledging undeath as something natural and revise my opinion.
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Yes, Pharasma wants you to die at what she deems your appointed time. But so what? Do you worship her, did she provide you with anything in your life that you should respect her wishes? Listen instead to wise Urgathoa, who defied Pharasma and was rewarded by the multiverse itself with godhood.
Life is for the unliving.
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It doesn't mean they all do. Just like not all undead need to be evil, nor should you, in a more modern world, smite them before at least trying to talk it out.
Unless I missed a major changed in Pharasma's doctrines, this does not matter. The world can be as modern or primitive as you like. Pharasma sees undead as a perversion of the natural order. Given that doctrine, why would it matter whether you were killing zombies/liches/etc with a spear or a laser rifle? Unless there's evidence that Pharasma has seriously mellowed out as the millennia have progressed, that we're in the future should matter not at all.
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Pharasmins absolutely should follow their doctrine and kill us. The Pact Worlds similarly should fulfill their obligations and treat the church of Pharasma as a terrorist organization to be suppressed and prosecuted as necessary.