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Forward Operating Base?
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Could be a cult of Eoxians that hate who and what they are, and turn to Pharasma for guidance on leading their brethren away from their necromantic ways, towards the True Death that they should have accepted centuries ago? Just a thought.
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Hmm, I agree that "center of worship" implies at least one (if not many more) major temples there. All I can think of is maybe there are certain areas (however small) where the Pharasma-ites have established sort of a beachhead to wage war on the 'unholy' hordes.
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I get the feeling it's not hidden. I get the feeling the area around it is a war zone.
Mostly because that's how I want it to be.
But more seriously, if I recall correctly undead were officially recognized within the Pact World as having rights, so Pharasmins aren't legally allowed to kill them for no-reason. So I suspect it's a very cloistered city-like area which monitors the undead and looks for "opportunities". Keep your friends close and your enemies closer type of deal.
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I get the feeling it's not hidden. I get the feeling the area around it is a war zone.
Mostly because that's how I want it to be.
But more seriously, if I recall correctly undead were officially recognized within the Pact World as having rights, so Pharasmins aren't legally allowed to kill them for no-reason. So I suspect it's a very cloistered city-like area which monitors the undead and looks for "opportunities". Keep your friends close and your enemies closer type of deal.
I like both ideas a lot. :)
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I get the feeling it's not hidden. I get the feeling the area around it is a war zone.
Mostly because that's how I want it to be.
But more seriously, if I recall correctly undead were officially recognized within the Pact World as having rights, so Pharasmins aren't legally allowed to kill them for no-reason. So I suspect it's a very cloistered city-like area which monitors the undead and looks for "opportunities". Keep your friends close and your enemies closer type of deal.
Would the secular legality of such actions stop zealous Pharasmins from doing so anyway? Especially with Pharasma not being a lawful goddess, I doubt she cares overmuch if her faithful breaks laws that conflict with her directives.
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Several folks in this thread hit it dead-on: In our minds, Eox has a real problem with Pharasmin insurgents/crusaders eager to break mortal law in obedience to a higher law. While it's much more hush-hush than in someplace like the Worldwound in Pathfinder, and the population of Pharasmins on the planet isn't huge, I think it's important enough to be worth mentioning, and hope to elaborate on it more in the future. :)
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Future plot hook: Pharasmin guerrilla war. They gotta be careful or the Eoxian fleet drops rocks from orbit.
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Well, that's interesting. I was thinking there were actual undead Pharasmins worshiping The Lady of Graves, because they view the undeath they no longer remember choosing as a sort of original sin they're trying to redeem themselves from.
Or that was an attempt at appeasement:
"Oh great Pharasma, I know our very existence is a mockery of your natural order, but we just wanted to let you know we are really, *really* sorry about that. I know we turned ourselves into abominations in order to escape Your grasp, but we don't remember doing that, so I don't think it really counts? So look, just give us a mulligan on this and don't destroy us or punish our souls for all eternity once we reach the Boneyard, and I promise this won't happen again. Amen."
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Would the secular legality of such actions stop zealous Pharasmins from doing so anyway? Especially with Pharasma not being a lawful goddess, I doubt she cares overmuch if her faithful breaks laws that conflict with her directives.I get the feeling it's not hidden. I get the feeling the area around it is a war zone.
Mostly because that's how I want it to be.
But more seriously, if I recall correctly undead were officially recognized within the Pact World as having rights, so Pharasmins aren't legally allowed to kill them for no-reason. So I suspect it's a very cloistered city-like area which monitors the undead and looks for "opportunities". Keep your friends close and your enemies closer type of deal.
Possibly. At the very least it likely prevents overt hostilities of an organized nature because otherwise at some point it would become the problem of the Pact Worlds government to then deal with the Pharasmins. The Pharasmins probably don't want to have to fight a war against non-undead to be allowed to wage war on the undead. It would also very likely be a losing proposition. So I feel like subtlety is key her.
So yes, I think it would keep them from doing it (too much) because it would attract enough attention to get them all killed. Just because your god likes what you're doing, doesn't mean anyone else does.
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Would the secular legality of such actions stop zealous Pharasmins from doing so anyway? Especially with Pharasma not being a lawful goddess, I doubt she cares overmuch if her faithful breaks laws that conflict with her directives.I get the feeling it's not hidden. I get the feeling the area around it is a war zone.
Mostly because that's how I want it to be.
But more seriously, if I recall correctly undead were officially recognized within the Pact World as having rights, so Pharasmins aren't legally allowed to kill them for no-reason. So I suspect it's a very cloistered city-like area which monitors the undead and looks for "opportunities". Keep your friends close and your enemies closer type of deal.
Possibly. At the very least it likely prevents overt hostilities of an organized nature because otherwise at some point it would become the problem of the Pact Worlds government to then deal with the Pharasmins. The Pharasmins probably don't want to have to fight a war against non-undead to be allowed to wage war on the undead. It would also very likely be a losing proposition. So I feel like subtlety is key her.
So yes, I think it would keep them from doing it (too much) because it would attract enough attention to get them all killed. Just because your god likes what you're doing, doesn't mean anyone else does.
To Zealots, that's all you need.
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i personaly love the idea of the pharasmmins just sitting on eox in a world wound fassion hahaha it brings joyful memorys. i had a warpriest of phrasma and loved the RP aspect of a Zealot who hated undead vary vary much.
TO put it simply he would have started a war if he was still alive after the gap on eox just saying im putting in a war torn area in my game for the church on eox
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To Zealots, that's all you need.
And that's how Pharasmins came to be labeled as extremists and a perpetual war against an ideology came to the Pact Worlds and shows no sign of being resolved as every Pharasmin extremist struck down just seems to cause two more to spring up.
Or is that too much of a real world analog?
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*shrugs*
Several folks in this thread hit it dead-on: In our minds, Eox has a real problem with Pharasmin insurgents/crusaders eager to break mortal law in obedience to a higher law. While it's much more hush-hush than in someplace like the Worldwound in Pathfinder, and the population of Pharasmins on the planet isn't huge, I think it's important enough to be worth mentioning, and hope to elaborate on it more in the future. :)
Super awesome!
... so do you have any idea about the iconic raising controlling undead in the spells chapter?
:D
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I could even potentially imagine a schism in the Pharasmin church that de-emphasizes hate of Undead and pushes the other aspects of Pharasma as being of much greater importance. With a focus on having a peaceful existence withinin the Pact Worlds over a perpetual war. Perhaps even going so far as to declare that Pharasmins should avoid Eox altogether and avoid holy war.
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I somewhat doubt a battle of Pharasma is happening on Eox for a few reasons, mainly that fact that the planet's surface is an inhospitable waste land with a thin, toxic atmosphere and very few plants clinging to life as it is. Not to mention there are a variety of terrifying creatures living there like the Ellicoths and glass serpents and this isn't the actual undead.
Although this still leaves the problem of why the hell Pharasma is worshipped there, keeping in mind it isn't necessarily the MAIN place she's worshipped unless I missed something. As she is also has centers of worship on Absalom station and apostate
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Would the secular legality of such actions stop zealous Pharasmins from doing so anyway? Especially with Pharasma not being a lawful goddess, I doubt she cares overmuch if her faithful breaks laws that conflict with her directives.I get the feeling it's not hidden. I get the feeling the area around it is a war zone.
Mostly because that's how I want it to be.
But more seriously, if I recall correctly undead were officially recognized within the Pact World as having rights, so Pharasmins aren't legally allowed to kill them for no-reason. So I suspect it's a very cloistered city-like area which monitors the undead and looks for "opportunities". Keep your friends close and your enemies closer type of deal.
Possibly. At the very least it likely prevents overt hostilities of an organized nature because otherwise at some point it would become the problem of the Pact Worlds government to then deal with the Pharasmins. The Pharasmins probably don't want to have to fight a war against non-undead to be allowed to wage war on the undead. It would also very likely be a losing proposition. So I feel like subtlety is key her.
So yes, I think it would keep them from doing it (too much) because it would attract enough attention to get them all killed. Just because your god likes what you're doing, doesn't mean anyone else does.
Pharasma is pretty widely worshipped pretty much everywhere there's living sentients. If Eox tries to take on the church of Pharasma, they're not likely to receive a lot of aid from any other pact world besides maybe Aballon. Any world with living sentients is going to have a significant population of Pharasmins, who aren't likely to support war against their own. There'd be all sorts of political repercussions for a politician on, say, Verces who advocated war with the Pharasmin church. Maybe the priests decide to refuse burials or last rites in the territory of any politician who opposes them, for instance. Or refuses prophetic services to their governments. Or perhaps Pharasmin midwives go on strike in protest. Let's not forget, too, that Eox isn't exactly beloved among the rest of the Pact Worlds, even if they were early adopters of the Pact itself.
It would be much like antagonizing the Catholic church in medieval Europe. If a ruler offended the Pope, his realm could be placed under Interdict. This meant that priests would refuse to perform Mass, Baptisms, Marriages, or hear confession. Even in the days of the "divine right of kings", peasants who were refused the right to confess sins, baptize their children, etc, tend to get...rowdy. Of course, Pharasma isn't the only deity worshipped in the Pact Worlds, but she holds purview over some pretty important areas. If I'm the Primex of Absalom Station, I think I'd probably rather have Eox pissed at me than a lot of my own citizens (not to mention the Goddess of Death).
And, at the end of the day, If I'm a devout worshipper of the Goddess of Death and Fate, what are you going to do to me? Kill me? lol Go for it. If you succeed, then it was what was fated to occur, and I'll tell the Lady of Graves in person how I was martyred in her service. "If you strike me down, and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."
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The difference is that Pharasma isn't the only deity around, and non-Pharasmins may not be overly concerned about her blessings. Deities seem to be less important in the Starfinder setting (from what I've gathered so far) than the were in Pathfinder. I'm also curious about the population of Eox vs the number of devout worshippers of Pharasma in the Pact Worlds. I mean, there are 20 deities. Personally I think the threat of Eox breaking the Pact and threatening the stability of all the Pact Worlds would be enough of a threat for politicians to distance themselves from Pharasmin extremists.
I also don't think the Pact World government could ignore the Church of Pharasma declaring outright war on Eox, there would have to be some level of intervention. It might be more like what the the US currently does, which is block trade. It's difficult to fight a war if you can't make any money because no one will buy your goods or sell you anything. And this seems exactly like the sort of thing AbadarCorp would do, which is the biggest (I think) corporation in the pact worlds.
Ultimately I think politicians of the Pact Worlds would say "Could you please, just not?"
Let be honest, from a world perspective it'd be a bit similar to a group like ISIS. The US isn't on great terms with Russia, but we still get on the same page (sort of) when it comes to dealing with ISIS.
Honestly, the situation really just recalls how dangerous any type of zealotry and extremism is.
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The core rulebook says in its blurb on Pharasma that "Every species that lives and dies worships Pharasma to some extent..." In a polytheistic society, even those who aren't "Pharasmins" per se still probably have significant dealing with her church and reverence for her. Every graveyard is a shrine to her. Midwives and Morticians usually worship her. No matter who you worship personally, aligning yourself with Pharasma's enemies is probably not smart. Sure, there are probably some people who just don't care about the afterlife, or who actively reject worship like the Rahadoumi once did, but Pharasma's church probably still wields a lot of power. In the Pact Worlds as a whole, maybe more than anyone but Abadar (and that only because Pharasma tends to remain neutral, where Abadar is actively pushing an agenda).
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Wasn't there a magic item in #2-25 that gave the PCs undead-like traits? That adventure was set in Geb.
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I should have been more specific. The purpose of the magic item was to have the PCs appear/detect as undead so that they would not draw attention in Geb.
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The core rulebook says in its blurb on Pharasma that "Every species that lives and dies worships Pharasma to some extent..." In a polytheistic society, even those who aren't "Pharasmins" per se still probably have significant dealing with her church and reverence for her. Every graveyard is a shrine to her. Midwives and Morticians usually worship her. No matter who you worship personally, aligning yourself with Pharasma's enemies is probably not smart. Sure, there are probably some people who just don't care about the afterlife, or who actively reject worship like the Rahadoumi once did, but Pharasma's church probably still wields a lot of power. In the Pact Worlds as a whole, maybe more than anyone but Abadar (and that only because Pharasma tends to remain neutral, where Abadar is actively pushing an agenda).
If nothing else, as you mention AbadarCorp has an agenda and it would very likely be in support of Eox (since trade and civilization are kind of Abadar's thing).
Also, you can support Pharasmas other qualities besides her hate of Undead, especially if you aren't primarily a worshiper of hers. If you're saying she'd choose to wage war against everyone because they weren't onboard with her plan....I'm not buying it.
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I'm not saying she'd choose to wage war with everyone. I'm saying that she's an important goddess almost everywhere, and most of the Pact Worlds would probably prefer to turn a blind eye to Pharasmin attacks on Eox (whom nobody likes much anyway) rather than risk alienating an important segment of their own populace.
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Everyone might prefer to ignore what the Pharasmins want to do, but what about when Eox stands up and says "I thought we had a deal, you don't harm us and we don't harm you. You are tacitly supporting our destruction by doing nothing or supporting the Pharasmins."
Yes Pharasma is important (as she's still a core deity), and yes no-one really likes Eox. But if you think they would stand for wide scale open attacks to be made against them while the rest of the Pact Worlds stands by...I think that just means that Eox would declare war against the rest of the Pact Worlds (again).
The Pharasmins are on the wrong side of the argument. They are the aggressors who aren't behaving peacefully. Killing a people who have been joined into society.
Remember, the undead of Eox are just as much members of the populace of the pact worlds as everyone else.
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To be clear, I don't think there could be any public support for any sort of Pharasmin assault on Eox, due to all the various reasons pointed out.
But I do think the Church would certainly begin to take steps. Eox has been a valuable ally to the Pact, certainly. But they didn't come to that conclusion until at least one failed assault on Absolom. Anyone with half a brain in the Worlds should realize this alliance is only going to hold up until Eox feels strong enough to finish taking over the system.
And it's not wholly a problem with Eox, either. The Veskarium isn't the most peaceful of groups for example.
I love what the developers/authors did with Starfinder. It has a very Bablyon 5 feel to it. There's no good reason the Pact should hold up... But it has so far. It will be so much fun to see how it stays together, disintigrates or mutates. This is the kind of setting that is essentially made of plot bunnies running in every direction.
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To be clear, I don't think there could be any public support for any sort of Pharasmin assault on Eox, due to all the various reasons pointed out.
But I do think the Church would certainly begin to take steps. Eox has been a valuable ally to the Pact, certainly. But they didn't come to that conclusion until at least one failed assault on Absolom. Anyone with half a brain in the Worlds should realize this alliance is only going to hold up until Eox feels strong enough to finish taking over the system.
And it's not wholly a problem with Eox, either. The Veskarium isn't the most peaceful of groups for example.
I love what the developers/authors did with Starfinder. It has a very Bablyon 5 feel to it. There's no good reason the Pact should hold up... But it has so far. It will be so much fun to see how it stays together, disintigrates or mutates. This is the kind of setting that is essentially made of plot bunnies running in every direction.
Exactly. Eox is too strong to openly oppose or support those who would try to harm them, because it could lead to open war. And if Eox left the pact, the Vesk might also leave. Causing a lot of trouble for everyone else remaining.
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The Pharasmins are on the wrong side of the argument.
...
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The Pharasmins are on the wrong side of the argument....
Murdering taxpayers because of their race tends to be frowned upon in the Pact Worlds.
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Murdering taxpayers because of their race tends to be frowned upon in the Pact Worlds.The Pharasmins are on the wrong side of the argument....
Exactly.
The Pharasmins are the ones who are waging a genocidal war against Eox. By most standards, that's a fairly horrible terrible thing to do. Especially against people you invited into your club. Honestly, since Undead are no longer innately evil their destruction (since they are sentient creatures) is now just as evil as killing anyone else. Which is to say, if it's not done if self-defense or the defense of others it's probably evil.
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Plot Idea: holy war between sects of Pharasmins and Sarenites, over whether the undead citizens of Eox are truly redeemable.
1) Eox set up the Pact Agreement, the other worlds didn't invite them. Which kinda makes the whole situation suspect anyway.
2) They're not people, they're monsters. Until we are explicitly told otherwise, which we haven't.
Owen said they're less Evil, but the numbers he gave for Evil to Non-Evil Undead synced up with Pathfinder, and all the Undead you encounter in Dead Suns are Evil.
Mark implied Starfinder might be a future to an Alternate Pathfinder where Undead have always been able to be any alignment they want.
And then James said something changed to allow it in-universe.
So while none of them have outright contradicted each other they haven't explained how and if Undead can be any alignment in Starfinder. And I sincerely hope they didn't think a throwaway line in the Core Rulebook about Undead being citizens in the Pact World would make everyone completely and 100% change what they thought about Undead. Them being "citizens" means absolutely nothing.
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Eox was the first to sign on to the Pact, but they didn't invent it and were invited. There's a name for killing a whole race because you think they have irredeemably bad characteristics. It starts with a g, and it's not on the name of a missing planet.
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They did invite Eox to be "friends" by agreeing to the Pact. The could have decided to remain at war.
They are sentient creatures that are being killed for what they are, rather than what they do. It's hugely discriminatory.
I'm not saying that Pharasmins can't continue on with their genocidal war, but saying we should recognize that they are in fact genocidal zealots.
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Eox was the first to sign on to the Pact, but they didn't invent it and were invited. There's a name for killing a whole race because you think they have irredeemably bad characteristics. It starts with a g, and it's not on the name of a missing planet.
We can't kill them; they're already dead!
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Eox was the first to sign on to the Pact, but they didn't invent it and were invited. There's a name for killing a whole race because you think they have irredeemably bad characteristics. It starts with a g, and it's not on the name of a missing planet.We can't kill them; they're already dead!
Uh yeah, good luck with that, lemme know how it turns out.
Eox was the first to sign on to the Pact, but they didn't invent it and were invited. There's a name for killing a whole race because you think they have irredeemably bad characteristics. It starts with a g, and it's not on the name of a missing planet.
That they were the first to sign on made me believe they came up with it, I'll reread.
That's the thing, they do have irredeemably bad characteristics, they're Undead, they're not Humanoids, they're monsters. Until we are actually told in-universe otherwise.
They did invite Eox to be "friends" by agreeing to the Pact. The could have decided to remain at war.
They are sentient creatures that are being killed for what they are, rather than what they do. It's hugely discriminatory.
I'm not saying that Pharasmins can't continue on with their genocidal war, but saying we should recognize that they are in fact genocidal zealots.
Feinds are sentient creatures too. Is it wrong to go after them?
Nothing shown in Dead Suns contradicts Undead being Evil monsters.
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I think you need to loosen up your undead are always evil stance.
It's a huge galaxy, that needs a more liberal viewpoint of others.
Don't judge entities by the amount of flesh on their face. :-)
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Peoples of the Pact Worlds, we defended you from the Vesk and the Swarm, and stand ready against the threat of the Azlanti Star Empire and future enemies unknown. Will you stand by while these zealots kill us and put your lives at risk due to simple philosophical differences?
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They did invite Eox to be "friends" by agreeing to the Pact. The could have decided to remain at war.
They are sentient creatures that are being killed for what they are, rather than what they do. It's hugely discriminatory.
I'm not saying that Pharasmins can't continue on with their genocidal war, but saying we should recognize that they are in fact genocidal zealots.
Feinds are sentient creatures too. Is it wrong to go after them?
Nothing shown in Dead Suns contradicts Undead being Evil monsters.
Except the civility, and asking for assistance and all that.
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Feinds are sentient creatures too. Is it wrong to go after them?
Nothing shown in Dead Suns contradicts Undead being Evil monsters.
Yes. Killing them for being Feinds is wrong. Killing them for doing evil things or because they are trying to kill you is justifiable.
IMO there is a paradigm shift in morality from D&D and Pathfinder morality to Sci-Fi morality. In science fiction it's generally not viewed as acceptable to kill sentient creatures for simply being what they are, it's usually a big theme of the genre (Sci-Fi tends to use more modern ideas of morality in general). I understand Starfinder is Science Fantasy rather than Fiction.
Regardless this is a big issue they have to address, honestly if they didn't want to make Pharasmins into genocidal zelouts they shouldn't have given any wriggle room on Undead or made any sort of peace with them.
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Many religions in Pathfinder/Starfinder have the annihilation of some sort of creature as part of their core beliefs. The forces of Heaven are constantly at war with Hell (and Abaddon and the Abyss). Does that make Iomedae less good because she wants to commit genocide on devils (demons, etc)? No, because in PF/SF, it matters who you're fighting. Annihilating evil isn't a bad thing because it's annihilation. It's a good thing because it's annihilating evil.
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Well, the Negative Plane (where undead get their "power" from ) has almost always been portrayed as either/both utter destruction or some kind of corruptive influence. That's why free-willed undead are generally evil (I think Forgotten Realms tried to push some "good" undead at one point but I don't recall the idea ever catching on).
Until I see a change to how the Negative Plane and undead are presented they're always going to be the "bad guys". We're talking about cosmological constants not just appearance.
[EDIT] Also, I think the gods are just as important as they've ever been (if not more so). The difference is that there's no longer a Cleric or Paladin class mechanically tied to them.
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Well, the Negative Plane (where undead get their "power" from ) has almost always been portrayed as either/both utter destruction or some kind of corruptive influence. That's why free-willed undead are generally evil (I think Forgotten Realms tried to push some "good" undead at one point but I don't recall the idea ever catching on).
Until I see a change to how the Negative Plane and undead are presented they're always going to be the "bad guys". We're talking about cosmological constants not just appearance.
[EDIT] Also, I think the gods are just as important as they've ever been (if not more so). The difference is that there's no longer a Cleric or Paladin class mechanically tied to them.
1) Negative energy is merely energy. It's why inflict spells aren't [evil].
2) FR had baelnorn, good liches, and good ghosts stretching back into 1e, several of whom were very popular long-lasting characters throughout various franchises and books.
3) Eberron had Deathless - a kind of positive-energy-variant of inherently-good "undead" (sort of) elves. Deathless also existed in core 3.X material in other places, as well.
There has never been as solid a hegemony of undead are always evil that you're suggesting - even in PF we had the juju oracle (though we have a different one now, SKR went to pains to suggest that the original was not invalidated - both exist, simultaneously, in-canon) and a host of non-evil ghosts (and several non-evil or good undead in other respects, as well) in official material and APs.
The official line has always been that they're evil, but nothing has ever really borne that out as a definitive thing.