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Gunnery doesn't require BAB. You can also get away with max ranks in piloting.
Gunnery Check = 1d20 + the gunner’s base attack bonus or the gunner’s ranks in the Piloting skill + the gunner’s Dexterity modifier + bonuses from computer systems + bonuses from the captain and science officers + range penalty
The party kind of expects a "tank"
I think this is part of the problem. Most editions of D&D (including PF), the fighter/warrior 'tank' is more of a gentlemen's agreement than any real thing.
With all the lasers and grenades zipping about in Starfinder, it seems even more outmoded. What should be happening is crazy firefights with focus fire* and opportunity shots on targets as people move and lose cover.
*focus fire being based on intelligence and psychology. A vesk might demand the honor of killing a foe alone, for example, while halflings work together to murder the most dangerous (or vulnerable) foe.
Given that SP/HP doesn't really diverge much, and AC is a factor of build more than class, the idea of a tank seems more anachronistic than ever.
low level Solarian felt underwhelming to my player.
Honestly, a lot of these classes feel underwhelming at low level. It's a d20 system problem aggravated by two things: trash equipment at level 1, and lack of meaningful choices for a lot of 1st level characters. At 5th level this really becomes a completely different game.
@Damanta - As the "tank" he'd rather rely on BAB than Piloting, as he won't have the skill ranks for that.
@Voss - If it is outmoded, it didn't appear that way in our first module. In fact, the meleer shortened a great many fights by running up and engaging those trying to make use of guns. We all suspect, and the first module backed this up to some degree with the Akatas, that there will be plenty of fights with opponents that are not willing to hang back in cover and take pot shots. With the other 3 characters (4 with the drone) all being ranged, I don't think making another light armor, Dex based character would work as well. Maybe that will change in later adventures, but none of us expect it to. In two months I'll have the next AP installment and they can decide if they want to continue.
The fact that only 2 of the classes in the core book seem to lend themselves to any sort of significant melee presence gives your view a little more weight than ours probably. And while a melee Operative may be possible, no one in the group thinks it would be very survivable unless the opponents cooperated like you say and you could sneak from single opponent to single opponent while the rest kept shooting at everyone else. Also EAC being lower on average combined with powered melee weapons lends itself to thinking melee might be stronger compared to ranged... then you add charging as a Standard action and things get real interesting real quick. I've seen mention that SF fights are supposed to last longer, so hopefully that starts to become more true for my group.
Also, the Operative and Mechanic were most certainly not underwhelming to their respective players. The Mystic was unhappy, but that turns out to be due to PF expectations more than anything else.
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@Mr H - My player would not agree that a one level dip with no Charisma built toward using the non-DC powers of the Solarian is "trash". Is it too far away from the Soldier? I don't know and he's working that out for himself.
You can't avoid them. Zenith powers are the main ability you get at level 1 and they are cha based.
It's like playing a 10 int mechanic because you get effective full bab from your AI.
Paizo made it clear that cha is a key ability score. Your player decided to multi class in a system he doesn't know and dump a key ability score. Paizo cannot prevent that from being a poor choice without removing vast amounts of build flexibility.
Thankfully, he can easily drop that solarian level per advancement rules
@Mr H - My player would not agree that a one level dip with no Charisma built toward using the non-DC powers of the Solarian is "trash". Is it too far away from the Soldier? I don't know and he's working that out for himself.You can't avoid them. Zenith powers are the main ability you get at level 1 and they are cha based.
It's like playing a 10 int mechanic because you get full bab from your AI.
Paizo made it clear that cha is a key ability score. Your player decided to multi class in a system he doesn't know and dump a key ability score. Paizo cannot prevent that from being a poor choice without removing vast amounts of build flexibility.
Thankfully, he can easily drop that solarian level per advancement rules
Since he dipped Str is his key ability score since it's higher than Cha.
Extra class skills and attunement bonuses are the main abilities you get at level 1, plus 1 ac if you're light armored.You don't have to tell them how to play their character and insult their competence, they made a completely valid choice.
@Mr H - My player would not agree that a one level dip with no Charisma built toward using the non-DC powers of the Solarian is "trash". Is it too far away from the Soldier? I don't know and he's working that out for himself.You can't avoid them. Zenith powers are the main ability you get at level 1 and they are cha based.
It's like playing a 10 int mechanic because you get full bab from your AI.
Paizo made it clear that cha is a key ability score. Your player decided to multi class in a system he doesn't know and dump a key ability score. Paizo cannot prevent that from being a poor choice without removing vast amounts of build flexibility.
Thankfully, he can easily drop that solarian level per advancement rules
Since he dipped Str is his key ability score since it's higher than Cha.
Extra class skills and attunement bonuses are the main abilities you get at level 1, plus 1 ac if you're light armored.You don't have to tell them how to play their character and insult their competence, they made a completely valid choice.
STR is the key score for Soldier abilities and Resolve points, not Solarion Points. Without having anything in CHA of course those Revelations will be lackluster.
Their response also didn't read as insulting, just matter of fact.
As for "valid", all these threads involving multiclassing and not putting into CHA is showing off how detrimental multiclassing as a Solarion is.
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@Mr H - My player would not agree that a one level dip with no Charisma built toward using the non-DC powers of the Solarian is "trash". Is it too far away from the Soldier? I don't know and he's working that out for himself.You can't avoid them. Zenith powers are the main ability you get at level 1 and they are cha based.
It's like playing a 10 int mechanic because you get full bab from your AI.
Paizo made it clear that cha is a key ability score. Your player decided to multi class in a system he doesn't know and dump a key ability score. Paizo cannot prevent that from being a poor choice without removing vast amounts of build flexibility.
Thankfully, he can easily drop that solarian level per advancement rules
Since he dipped Str is his key ability score since it's higher than Cha.
Extra class skills and attunement bonuses are the main abilities you get at level 1, plus 1 ac if you're light armored.You don't have to tell them how to play their character and insult their competence, they made a completely valid choice.
No but you can rebuke him for using that design as a reason why Solarians aren't effective. Which is what is being stated here.
Build and play whatever you want. But don't don't make choices that hamstring what a class is meant to do and then say the class is awful.
@Mr H - My player would not agree that a one level dip with no Charisma built toward using the non-DC powers of the Solarian is "trash". Is it too far away from the Soldier? I don't know and he's working that out for himself.You can't avoid them. Zenith powers are the main ability you get at level 1 and they are cha based.
It's like playing a 10 int mechanic because you get full bab from your AI.
Paizo made it clear that cha is a key ability score. Your player decided to multi class in a system he doesn't know and dump a key ability score. Paizo cannot prevent that from being a poor choice without removing vast amounts of build flexibility.
Thankfully, he can easily drop that solarian level per advancement rules
Since he dipped Str is his key ability score since it's higher than Cha.
Extra class skills and attunement bonuses are the main abilities you get at level 1, plus 1 ac if you're light armored.You don't have to tell them how to play their character and insult their competence, they made a completely valid choice.
No but you can rebuke him for using that design as a reason why Solarians aren't effective. Which is what is being stated here.
Build and play whatever you want. But don't don't make choices that hamstring what a class is meant to do and then say the class is awful.
If and when combats start taking longer and Revelations matter, things may very well change. So again, he's not using Revelations at Cha 10 and complaining. He's making use of the other features of the class. If he built a Solarian from 1st, he would have Charisma. The argument seems to be going in circles here... build a Solarian... Solarians aren't primary melee presences, build a Soldier... how dare you try to mix them, that's just wrong... build a Solarian. Regardless, my player is sticking with his 10 Char, 1 level of Soldier character. If I can, I'll post another report in two months and everyone can point out how wrong it is all over again.
And for the record, neither my player or myself think the Solarian is "awful"... just not as good as hoped. Sorry to have offended everyone with our multi-classing. Sheesh.
The combat with the King's leader and her body guard lasted 6 rounds for my group.
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Sigh, no one is upset you multi class.
What we are having trouble with is the way the results are being used to support an apparent weakness in a class.
Taking a class where the designers specifically say you need this stat for your class features, and deliberately not taking that stat, is hamstringing a class.
To then say "I'm disappointed in this class because it didn't deliver what I wanted" is just poor form.
He wants battlefield control, but Isn't willing to sacrifice actions for. He wants awesome melee but is upset when creatures are resistant to his attacks (welcome to any d20 system). He complains the options for the class are hard to get going, when he doesn't have the stats to make them effective.
The average fight in Pathfinder is three rounds. That's a pretty staple number in the design philosophy of the game and is backed up by a metric ton of data from gameplay experience.
The average fight in Pathfinder is three rounds. That's a pretty staple number in the design philosophy of the game and is backed up by a metric ton of data from gameplay experience.Starfinder will almost certainly see that number increasing to four or five rounds.
Yeah, extra HP on enemies compared to Pathfinder versions, tighter bonuses to attack and damage, and losing the free 5' step seems like it should lengthen the fights. Which I think is a good thing.
He wants battlefield control, but Isn't willing to sacrifice actions for. He wants awesome melee but is upset when creatures are resistant to his attacks (welcome to any d20 system). He complains the options for the class are hard to get going, when he doesn't have the stats to make them effective.
He doesn't necessarily *want* battlefield control. That issue boiled down to "do I need battlefield control if I have heavy armor". The creatures were not resistant to his melee, they were resistant to a damage type for a power. He didn't have Sheath at that point so his melee damage type was not fire. It was an unfortunate circumstance that combined his build and the way the adventure played out for him. He actually hasn't complained that the options are hard to get going. (not sure what I mentioned this, but been too many posts... unless you mean the 3 round thing) He's not planning to use those options. That is only part of what resulted in his lowered opinion of the class. In the work he did last week, he apparently built a normal Solarian and ran through the same encounters from the module to see how it would have fared. I have no idea how fair that comparison is to any other, but it led him to where he is now.
And he still likes the non-Cha portions of the class to continue using it. If he cuts off half the class and is still planning to use it, I'm not sure how that means he suddenly hates it. But sure, if taking a level of Soldier and ignoring one half of the class (Graviton) makes his view invalid, fine. I'm sure when others are playing the class at the mid-range of the game, he'll re-evaluate the opinion. Has anyone here done that? Is there a DPR thread for the Solarian showing the mid and upper level performance? If there is I'd assume he's seen it because he looks for that stuff, but maybe not. People keep saying he's wrong, but I've seen no evidence that anyone has done any sort of play at that level to demonstrate the effectiveness he's doubting.
The average fight in Pathfinder is three rounds. That's a pretty staple number in the design philosophy of the game and is backed up by a metric ton of data from gameplay experience.
And by the third round, how many opponents are there still around in good fighting condition to be worthy of a Revelation type power? Sure, might as well use them since you'll be unattuned and out of Photon mode at the end of the round, but I'm not sure how using any of those Revelations on the final round of a fight would be anything but overkill at that point. Hopefully SF will be different and things will start to drag out longer, but so far, that three round average is sticking.
I'm bored! Can't you move on.
I'm bored! Can't you move on.
Sure. done.
Gunnery doesn't require BAB. You can also get away with max ranks in piloting.
Gunnery Check = 1d20 + the gunner’s base attack bonus or the gunner’s ranks in the Piloting skill + the gunner’s Dexterity modifier + bonuses from computer systems + bonuses from the captain and science officers + range penalty
You know, this may be a bit off topic, but I've been seeing this a lot.
The "you can just use piloting" argument doesn't really work. There's exactly one role on the whole ship that requires Piloting, and unless you're planning on driving on vehicles a bunch - which is limited depending on if you're grounded and what terrain you're then on - it is the only time Piloting is used. Just for flying the ship.
So if you max your ranks in Piloting, you're the ship's pilot, not it's prime gunner. If somebody else is then maxing out Piloting, just for the sake of Gunning, they're then wasting skill ranks when a full-BAB class receives the same benefit for free. The only other times I can see that makes sense for somebody else to be gunning and then max their Piloting is
1) The character is flying a ship by themselves.
2) The character's party lacks a full-BAB class, like Solarion.
And that's it.
Piloting is used just in Starship Combat and not in normal combat (or at the very least, not NEARLY as much - even when vehicles are involved), while BAB is used in both.
BAB can also be used to stop combat before it starts or for other uses outside of initiative combat - such as grabbing somebody to quiet them or restrain them, tripping somebody to stop them from chasing somebody, or disarming someone. It can also be used to help break open doors or hit key targets from a distance (albeit doing so wouldn't be too hard even without full-BAB). Piloting does exactly none of that, and has almost no out-of-combat uses otherwise.
You don't get other benefits to your Piloting check on a gunnery check, either, meaning that feats or class features that boost your Piloting are lost.
When compared to things like Computers and Engineering, on the other hand, those are skills you end up maxing for other reasons outside of the ship, have multiple uses, and a lot of classes get decent benefits to them, compared to the few classes that increase Piloting.
This puts Solarion and Soldier both as useful members of a starship crew as primary gunners, since they're not spending resources to get good at doing it. Solarion's in a particularly good situation considering they can also get good at social skills, making them a decent fit for Captain as well - and potentially even both at the same time, depending on the scenario. The rank you're wasting maxing Piloting with an existing pilot on the team could better be used developing a new skill or specializing in something else.
The rank you're wasting maxing Piloting with an existing pilot on the team could better be used developing a new skill or specializing in something else.
Except that having skill overlap is really important, especially in a setting where your primary transport can KILL you if something goes wrong.
It's called cross-training, and it's important.
You don't have to be the best pilot to either A) be the backup pilot to fly the ship while the main pilot is sleeping (since space travel *WILL* take days of time, and the pilot isn't going to be able to stay awake that entire time and then contribute effectively to the away team) or unconscious/disabled; and B) having maxed (or even some) ranks in the piloting skill means that if the pilot dies during an away mission, the group isn't stuck on the ground, unable to effectively fly their ship.
The only other times I can see that makes sense for somebody else to be gunning and then max their Piloting is
1) The character is flying a ship by themselves.
2) The character's party lacks a full-BAB class, like Solarion.
And that's it.
3) You are creating the character for SFS society play and want to be sure there is always a Pilot.
4) Pilot fits your character concept5) You have a good Dex and poor Cha and Int so the character would be rather uninspiring if you even attempted other roles.
Now as a Solarian your Charisma should be alright, so you could go for Captain and buy up Diplomacy and other face skills.
The two ship roles you need are Pilot and Gunner. Extra Gunners are very useful assuming you have multiple weapons on the ship -- most do.
Captain really only Aids other positions or messes with the enemy crew. As much as it pains me to say so, Engineering is probably where you want your third person. If they can start as Science Officer and then switch to Engineering that is great. Since that requires a good Int, it probably isn't the Solarian doing that.
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I have good AC, I do great melee damage,
Following is NOT snarky. Genuinely curious
How did you manage to get a good AC together with decent damage?
Did you take Hvy Armor Prof? Even so, I'm assuming your Str >= Dex.
At, say, 16/16 12 Cha to start your AC isn't what I'd call good, not given how high enemy to hits are.
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Based on what I've seen in the adventures out at the moment. Hitting the enemy is going to be easy. You won't need to be maxing your to hit bonus much. (Lots of 10/12 sets, only a few higher than that for level 1). The enemies have better to hit range than PCs though. Expect between +4 (poor attack) to +6 ( preferred attack) from lower level stuff at this stage.
Combat is going to hurt players, and I believe that's the intention. You'll want to be using cover or abilities to stop those hits, because even with good armour like above, they're hitting you 50% of the time.
This is why we get high values of stamina and HP combined and reserve points to use in recovery.
I get the feeling folks are going to have to unlearn a lot of their assumptions from Pathfinder because the design philosophy is much different in this one.
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Finally finished my basic chassis for my Solarian. Just at first level, I'll work out what happens for him as he advances based on what's occurring in the campaign.
Stats
14, 16, 11, 10, 8, 14
Lashunta, Bounty Hunter Solarian.
I went Armour spec
Skills in bluff (8, took it as one of the class skills for Solarian and put a boost from Lashunta into it)
Diplomacy (6)
Perception (5, the other Lashunta boost went in here)
Stealth (7)
Feats - improved Feint (move action to bluff enemies into,being flat footed)
Armour - 15/16 (so melee I'm pretty hard to,get hit from what I've seen of the stats in adventures so far. Most humanoids hit better with ranged than melee in what I've seen) even at range I'm a 50/50 in the open.
Melee - longsword (+3/ d8+2) - not the best, but the longsword makes up for not doing the extra damage from strength and not using the Solarian weapon
Ranged - semi auto pistol (+4, d6)
Feint is more likely to be going up against a DC 16 at first level, max of maybe 19.
Gives me a better than everage chance for it to go off most of the time.
Plus, the bluff of 8 makes me a pretty good option for captain.
The saves for my abilities are DC 13 at level 1. I'm happy enough with that.
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You're neglecting to consider the personal augs. By 10th level, a Dex-focused character will have a +4 augment, for another +2 to both ACs.
By level 10:+12/+14, +5 Dex, +2 Solar Armor +10 = 29/31
The armor's max Dex mod is +5 and +2 respectively, so this actually doesn't matter. The AC is as listed.
By level 11, this changes somewhat, but very much in the favor of heavy armor, with its Dex-mod going up by +2 while light armor's Dex mod stays the same. Their AC goes up about the same amount aside from that, but still.
