Mythic Adventures and Epic DR - FAQ candidate


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

In the recent Mythic Adventures hardcover, epic damage reduction seems to have suffered a severe nerf. As the text says on page 7:

"DR/Epic: A type of damage reduction, DR/epic can be
overcome only by a weapon with an enhancement bonus of +6
or greater (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 299). Weapons with special
abilities also count as epic for the purposes of overcoming
damage reduction if the total bonus value of all of their
abilities (including the enhancement bonus) is +6 or greater.
"

This seems like a very great reduction of effectiveness in DR/Epic. Circumstancially (like with a +4 Bane or +4 Furious weapon), this means that DR/Epic is less effective than DR/alignment. Was this intended as such, or are there other factors to take into account?


Not to mention practically redundant. Many of the creatures with DR/Epic also have DR/Alignment. There's very little point in giving creatures like Demon Lords, Empyreal Lords, etc. DR/Epic when their defense line shows "DR/Alignment AND DR/Epic".

If you can bypass alignment then, most of the time, you're going to be bypassing epic just as an afterthought.


Jeez does that mean a +1 vorpal blade overcome dr/epic now?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

At first glance it seems that with this new interpretation DR/Epic will be far less useful to monsters than it will be to players, especially at the later levels.

And another question which crops up is if this new interpretation only is valid for DR/Epic, or if a +4 Flaming Weapon now also counts as +5 to pass through DR/alignment (and so on with the other types of DR).


I think the big cause for this change is that unlike in 3.5, there aren't rules for creating "epic" weapons, so a player wouldn't be able to make a +6 weapon flat. I still think its silly because that means on average by level ten you will be able to overcome it with ease.


The Block Knight wrote:

Not to mention practically redundant. Many of the creatures with DR/Epic also have DR/Alignment. There's very little point in giving creatures like Demon Lords, Empyreal Lords, etc. DR/Epic when their defense line shows "DR/Alignment AND DR/Epic".

If you can bypass alignment then, most of the time, you're going to be bypassing epic just as an afterthought.

No. First of all, I just went through all of the creatures and did not find any examples of "DR/Alignment and DR/Epic". I found many that were "DR/Alignment and Epic", which is what I assume you were referring to.

Remember, if it's DR/X and Y, you have to meet both X and Y requirements to bypass the DR. If it was DR/X OR Y, your point would hold. I did not see any creatures with OR in their DR listing.


Um, I did use AND. That's my point. You have to meet both. I didn't use OR. My point holds because of AND.

If you have a reasonably mid or high-level creature with both Alignment AND Epic, the Epic is unnecessary: because quite often (but not all of the time, I recognize that) the means used to bypass Alignment (+5 weapons often with additional abilities, or +4 weapons with an alignment ability) will negate epic just as a side-effect.

Sure, those sorts of weapons aren't common at early or low-mid stages of combat, but they are more common at levels 14+ which is when you're encountering the sorts of creatures that have both types of DR such as Nascent Demon Lords for example. Is there really any point for Treerazer to have both Alignment AND Epic when the Epic can now be incidentally bypassed?


I misunderstood your concern as you have apparently misread my reply.

I can't concede your point, of course, because what you are using for your argument is the entire point of the FAQ thread. We'll have to see what the developers say.

The beauty is our discussion keeps the topic near the top where more people will hopefully see it and FAQ.


I don't understand the DR that reads #/Epic AND Magic. Shouldn't magic be cancelled out merely by fact that the DR requires Epic (ie. A really powerful MAGIC item)?


Maybe a +5 weapon with extra goodies should allow you to bypass DR/epic?


Starsunder wrote:
I don't understand the DR that reads #/Epic AND Magic. Shouldn't magic be cancelled out merely by fact that the DR requires Epic (ie. A really powerful MAGIC item)?

If a monster has DR/Epic, its natural attacks count as Epic for overcoming damage reduction. They're not necessarily magic as well, though. So, DR15/Epic and Magic would still affect the creature's natural attacks.


ZZTRaider wrote:
Starsunder wrote:
I don't understand the DR that reads #/Epic AND Magic. Shouldn't magic be cancelled out merely by fact that the DR requires Epic (ie. A really powerful MAGIC item)?
If a monster has DR/Epic, its natural attacks count as Epic for overcoming damage reduction. They're not necessarily magic as well, though. So, DR15/Epic and Magic would still affect the creature's natural attacks.

Ehhhh, all that Epic means in the game is a magic item with an enhancement bonus of +6 or higher. So, epic would be enough to cover magic or epic. Adding Magic seems redundant and useless, but it happens multiple times throughout the mythic bestiary so I'm assuming there's a reason for it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I suspect the reason behind it is "computers make things easy". Of course I could be wrong, but I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if Jason added a new check to the "stat block spreadsheet" that works something like:

IF: subtype = mythic
ANDIF: DR exists
DR = Epic and (existing)
ELSE: DR = Epic
ELSE: ""


AinvarG wrote:


The beauty is our discussion keeps the topic near the top where more people will hopefully see it and FAQ.

Bingo. That's pretty much my main goal here as well.

AinvarG wrote:
I misunderstood your concern as you have apparently misread my reply.

Fair enough.


The Block Knight wrote:
AinvarG wrote:


The beauty is our discussion keeps the topic near the top where more people will hopefully see it and FAQ.

Bingo. That's pretty much my main goal here as well.

AinvarG wrote:
I misunderstood your concern as you have apparently misread my reply.
Fair enough.

Indeed. Have a good one!


Chemlak wrote:

I suspect the reason behind it is "computers make things easy". Of course I could be wrong, but I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if Jason added a new check to the "stat block spreadsheet" that works something like:

IF: subtype = mythic
ANDIF: DR exists
DR = Epic and (existing)
ELSE: DR = Epic
ELSE: ""

Yeah, this occurred to me as well, but it seems pretty sloppy so I was trying to ignore this possibility. :p


Starsunder wrote:
Chemlak wrote:

I suspect the reason behind it is "computers make things easy". Of course I could be wrong, but I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if Jason added a new check to the "stat block spreadsheet" that works something like:

IF: subtype = mythic
ANDIF: DR exists
DR = Epic and (existing)
ELSE: DR = Epic
ELSE: ""

Yeah, this occurred to me as well, but it seems pretty sloppy so I was trying to ignore this possibility. :p

I think the explanation is probably much like the post right before your original question. In sum, DR affects more than defense.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Starsunder wrote:
ZZTRaider wrote:
Starsunder wrote:
I don't understand the DR that reads #/Epic AND Magic. Shouldn't magic be cancelled out merely by fact that the DR requires Epic (ie. A really powerful MAGIC item)?
If a monster has DR/Epic, its natural attacks count as Epic for overcoming damage reduction. They're not necessarily magic as well, though. So, DR15/Epic and Magic would still affect the creature's natural attacks.
Ehhhh, all that Epic means in the game is a magic item with an enhancement bonus of +6 or higher. So, epic would be enough to cover magic or epic. Adding Magic seems redundant and useless, but it happens multiple times throughout the mythic bestiary so I'm assuming there's a reason for it.

Universal Monster Rules, Damage Reduction

"Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures' natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons—that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures' natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."

So, again, a creature with DR/Epic is treated as if its natural weapons were also Epic. However, this does not make them magical.

Creature A has a Bite attack and DR/Epic.
Creature B has a Claw attack and DR/Epic and Magic.
Creature C has a Tail attack and DR/Magic.

If two Creature A's are fighting each other, they each ignore the other's damage reduction when using their Bite attack, as it is treated as Epic. The same is true with two Creature B's or two Creature C's.

If Creature A attacks Creature B, it is still subject to Creature B's damage reduction, because its Bite attack does not count as Magic, only Epic. If a Druid cast Magic Fang on Creature A, however, then it could bypass Creature B's damage reduction, as its Bite would count as both Epic and Magic.

If Creature B attacks Creature A, it will overcome the damage reduction, as its Claw counts as Epic (in addition to Magic). This is also the case if Creature B attacks Creature C, as the Claw counts as Magic (in addition to Epic).


ZZTRaider wrote:
Starsunder wrote:
ZZTRaider wrote:
Starsunder wrote:
I don't understand the DR that reads #/Epic AND Magic. Shouldn't magic be cancelled out merely by fact that the DR requires Epic (ie. A really powerful MAGIC item)?
If a monster has DR/Epic, its natural attacks count as Epic for overcoming damage reduction. They're not necessarily magic as well, though. So, DR15/Epic and Magic would still affect the creature's natural attacks.
Ehhhh, all that Epic means in the game is a magic item with an enhancement bonus of +6 or higher. So, epic would be enough to cover magic or epic. Adding Magic seems redundant and useless, but it happens multiple times throughout the mythic bestiary so I'm assuming there's a reason for it.

Universal Monster Rules, Damage Reduction

"Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures' natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons—that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures' natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."

So, again, a creature with DR/Epic is treated as if its natural weapons were also Epic. However, this does not make them magical.

Creature A has a Bite attack and DR/Epic.
Creature B has a Claw attack and DR/Epic and Magic.
Creature C has a Tail attack and DR/Magic.

If two Creature A's are fighting each other, they each ignore the other's damage reduction when using their Bite attack, as it is treated as Epic. The same is true with two Creature B's or two Creature C's.

If Creature A attacks...

Seems you forgot to bold the most pertinent part of the universal monster rule : that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus.

Magic Weapons. With at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Magic.

Epic is magic. Just very powerful magic.

A monster with epic DR who has attacks that count as epic would overcome a monster that had DR/Magic.


Starsunder wrote:

Seems you forgot to bold the most pertinent part of the universal monster rule : that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus.

Magic Weapons. With at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Magic.

Epic is magic. Just very powerful magic.

A monster with epic DR who has attacks that count as epic would overcome a monster that had DR/Magic.

I really don't think that follows. If natural weapons that count as Epic are equivalent to a +6 magical weapon, DR/Epic and ANYTHING is pointless, as a +6 magic weapon covers magic, cold iron, silver, adamantine, alignments, and epic.

The behemoth subtype even has a (Su) ability explicitly stating that the creature's weapons count as both Epic and Magic (even though the subtype only naturally has DR/Epic).

This affects monsters from before Mythic Adventures, several of which are their own creature, rather than a mythic version of something that existed previously, suggesting that they were not part of some mistake due to adding DR/Epic to everything.


I agree with ZZTRaider. In order for my character to bypass epic DR, she's going to have to use magic, yes, but for a creature that has DR/Epic due to its nature, that is not necessarily the case.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Hm, I guess I should have included the question in the OP if this change is limited to DR/Epic or if the "combined bonuses count as enhancement bonus in regards to DR" change would have to be applied to the other damage reductions as well.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Entertainingly, the wording on DR/Epic being overcome by +6 total enhancement bonus means that a +5 [Insert +1 ability] [Insert weapon of choice] overcomes most, if not all, DR. Up to and including Cold-Iron, Silver, Adamantine, and Alignment, in addition to Epic.


Remember that even if it does count as magic for DR, it isn't magic for anything else. It's one of Big-T's classic weaknesses.


Keep in mind folks, that before this book, there was NO way of breaching DR epic.


Scavion wrote:
Keep in mind folks, that before this book, there was NO way of breaching DR epic.

There was +5 Bane weapons. And there were epic weapons from 3.0/3.5, which are easy to adapt to PF.

I'd actually like it if only bane weapons could break DR/Epic, because as it is, both bane weapons and flat enhancement bonuses are quite underpowered compared to a lot of other abilities, and giving bane its own special niche is IMO a good thing. Whether its niche should be breaking epic DR or something else is a more difficult question.

Liberty's Edge

137ben wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Keep in mind folks, that before this book, there was NO way of breaching DR epic.

There was +5 Bane weapons. And there were epic weapons from 3.0/3.5, which are easy to adapt to PF.

I'd actually like it if only bane weapons could break DR/Epic, because as it is, both bane weapons and flat enhancement bonuses are quite underpowered compared to a lot of other abilities, and giving bane its own special niche is IMO a good thing. Whether its niche should be breaking epic DR or something else is a more difficult question.

Actually, flat enhancement bonuses are generally the most optimal thing to put on a weapon. (Barring extremely niche abilities like furious on a weapon in the hands of a single classed barbarian, which also deals with DR/epic.) Bane, on the other hand, you are more correct bout (barring inquisitors and rangers with instant enemy).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'll be bumping this once to garner a few more FAQ clicks, hopefully catching a developers (coughSKRcough) attention.

Liberty's Edge

I'd really like to see an answer to this as well.


I don't see a reason to FAQ this. Pretty clear cut, isn't it?
If you're unhappy about it, change it.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It's a discrepancy with other types of damage reduction and it is also of interest if this is a general new philosophy in regards to the other types of DR or just limited to DR/Epic.

For example, would a +4 Flaming weapon now count as a +5 weapon in regards to bypassing damage reductions? If not, why the special case for DR/Epic?


More interesting is that a +5 weapon cannot bypass Epic DR without having a special enhancement.


Marthkus wrote:
More interesting is that a +5 weapon cannot bypass Epic DR without having a special enhancement.

Yeah, that's what the text says. Or with a +6 weapon (probably an artifact).

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I no not think I am a fan of the change to allowing properties to count towards the enhancment bonus for overcoming DR. And, as magnuskn asked, does this now mean that a +1 flaming burst weapon counts as +3 for overcoming DR making it strike true agasint those requiring Cold Iron or Silver? Or, is this a special case for DR/Epic?

It makes more sense to me that overcoming DR/Epic be left to either a +6 or higher enhancment bonus (there are stats for a couple of artifact weapons that have this) or a +4 or +5 enhamcment bonus weapon with the Bane property.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I suspect DR/Epic is a special case. The DR text from the Glossary in the CRB refers only to enhancement bonus (as opposed to enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalent), whereas DR/Epic now clearly uses enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalent for figuring out if a weapon can overcome it.

Sure, they might errata it at some point. But until they do, the rules seem clear: enhancement bonus of +3 or higher (as per glossary) for material and aligned DR, enhancement bonus and special ability equivalent bonus of +6 or higher to overcome DR/Epic.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Quite honestly, with the insane amount of damage high level characters can produce and mythic really not helping to reduce that, having DR/Epic be almost unsurmountable would feel much better to me than it being one of the easily bypassed types of damage reduction.

The Exchange

5 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Corollary and follow-up to the first question: Let's say I have a +1 nunchaku of shocking burst and somebody uses greater magic weapon to give it temporary "+4" status. Though it functions the same as a +4 nunchaku of shocking burst, neither the innate weapon quality ("+3") nor the spell ("+4") are breaking the Epic barrier. Does it qualify?


I am more interested in the implications mentioned up thread about how this written rule interacts with other +x enhancements that overcome dr, like weapon materials and alignment. If I have a +2 speed short sword does it overcome dr/cold iron?

Scarab Sages

It's not like DR/epic will be hard to break. With current rulings, any class can quickly become eligible for Arcane Strike/Mythic Arcane Strike.

Add both Bane[creature type] and Mythic Bane to the same weapon at 4th tier (third tier if also taking Mythic Paragon). That is +4 to your weapons enhancement bonus, plus a nice boost to damage.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
magnuskn wrote:
Quite honestly, with the insane amount of damage high level characters can produce and mythic really not helping to reduce that, having DR/Epic be almost unsurmountable would feel much better to me than it being one of the easily bypassed types of damage reduction.

I agree magnuskn. I would rather DR/Epic be... Epic. Not have built in verbiage that contradicts the CRB description of how overcoming DR works.

@BigDTBone:
I asked basicaly the same thing above. I think this is a case of specific over riding general for this instance. The descriptions of overcoming DR in the Core Rule Book should stand. This exception should only apply to DR/Epic.

That being said, I do not think I am going to pay any attention to that little caveat. Overcoming DR/Epic, in my game, is going to require a +6 or higher enhancment bonus (which there are a couple of examples of) or having DR/Epic yourself.


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Even if this ruling does only apply to DR/Epic, that's still not great. Because you get situations where DR/Epic is worth less than stuff like DR/Adamantine.

For example, if I have a +2 Dancing longsword (no special material), I still can't bypass the DR of CR 4 to CR 16 Golems (since they all have DR/Adamantine). . . with the exception of the CR 19 Adamantine Golem (since it has DR/Epic instead of Adamantine) whose DR I can now bypass. Now that's just silly.

And it's not like that example is a corner case either. You're going to get all kinds of weirdness like that. Dancing is a +4 ability that's right in the Core Rulebook. And I have a lot more trouble justifying using Dancing to bypass DR than Vorpal because it's not like Dancing really improves the strength of the weapon.


Tempestorm wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Quite honestly, with the insane amount of damage high level characters can produce and mythic really not helping to reduce that, having DR/Epic be almost unsurmountable would feel much better to me than it being one of the easily bypassed types of damage reduction.

I agree magnuskn. I would rather DR/Epic be... Epic. Not have built in verbiage that contradicts the CRB description of how overcoming DR works.

@BigDTBone:
I asked basicaly the same thing above. I think this is a case of specific over riding general for this instance. The descriptions of overcoming DR in the Core Rule Book should stand. This exception should only apply to DR/Epic.

That being said, I do not think I am going to pay any attention to that little caveat. Overcoming DR/Epic, in my game, is going to require a +6 or higher enhancment bonus (which there are a couple of examples of) or having DR/Epic yourself.

Yup.


How exactly does one get a weapon to +6 anyway? Is it just DM Fiat?

Say if some one was going to take Legendary Item three time ago end up with a major artifact does it just become +6 I can't seem to find the answer anywhere..


havoc xiii wrote:

How exactly does one get a weapon to +6 anyway? Is it just DM Fiat?

How is it that anything which isn't gained automatically by leveling ends up being called "DM Fiat"?

Anyways, there are several ways to get +6 enhancement bonus. These include (but are not limited to):
A +6 weapon can be created by someone of level 21 or higher ,
A +4 or +5 weapon with the Bane property,
an Artifact

Scarab Sages

137ben wrote:
havoc xiii wrote:

How exactly does one get a weapon to +6 anyway? Is it just DM Fiat?

How is it that anything which isn't gained automatically by leveling ends up being called "DM Fiat"?

Anyways, there are several ways to get +6 enhancement bonus. These include (but are not limited to):
A +6 weapon can be created by someone of level 21 or higher ,
A +4 or +5 weapon with the Bane property,
an Artifact

The example I gave just a few posts up. Using Mythic Arcane Strike allows a character to boost a +2 weapon to +6 as early as tier 3.

It is not class or race dependent as anybody can obtain SLA's via legendary items.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
havoc xiii wrote:

How exactly does one get a weapon to +6 anyway? Is it just DM Fiat?

Say if some one was going to take Legendary Item three time ago end up with a major artifact does it just become +6 I can't seem to find the answer anywhere..

There are examples in published Paizo material of +6 enhancement bonus weapons. Yes, they are artifacts. Which they should be... since the Damage Reduction is Epic.


137ben wrote:
havoc xiii wrote:

How exactly does one get a weapon to +6 anyway? Is it just DM Fiat?

How is it that anything which isn't gained automatically by leveling ends up being called "DM Fiat"?

Anyways, there are several ways to get +6 enhancement bonus. These include (but are not limited to):
A +6 weapon can be created by someone of level 21 or higher ,
A +4 or +5 weapon with the Bane property,
an Artifact

Well, since there is no such thing as level 21 I guess it's up to the DM to have a weapon "Ascend"

And I agree a +6 weapon should be an artifact what I'm asking is how does one take a weapon which they have used

Legendary Item (Ex):

You gain a legendary item (see page 169). This item grants a number of abilities equal
to your tier (maximum 3). At 3rd tier, you can select this ability again, increasing the maximum to six abilities and causing the item to become a lesser artifact. At 6th tier,
you can select this ability again, increasing the maximum to 10 abilities; the item then becomes a greater artifact.
three times to end up with a greater artifact.

But no where in the legendary weapon section does it mention how you can break +5 unless I'm missing it.

Edit: Im not saying its a bad thing if it requires the DM to say "If you (insert mythic requirement) your blade shall obtain the power to slay the gods them selves (+6)" I have no problem with that in fact that'd be kinda cool. I'm just curious since it mentions +6 but I can't find a way to make the weapon you've spent all this time with a +6 weapon on its own.

Grand Lodge

Scavion wrote:
Keep in mind folks, that before this book, there was NO way of breaching DR epic.

Actually, the Axe of the Dwarven Lords, a major artifact in the core rulebook, is a +6 keen throwing goblinoid bane dwarven waraxe


My understanding of this is that is it the ENHANCEMENT bonus must be +6... not the numbe rof enhacenemnts.

Example 1: +5 Vorpal is a +10 weapon but only a +5 Enhancement bonus and thus will not effect DR Epic.

Example 2: +5 Goblin Bane weapon is a +6 weapon, it has a +5 enhancement normally but a +7 enahncement vs goblins. If the target is a goblin it will effect Epic DR, but if it is not a goblin it will not effect Epic DR.

The TOTAL ENHANCEMENT BONUS refers not to the ENHANCEMENT bonus of the sword, flaming and other enchantments need not apply UNLESS they modify the ENHACEMENT bonus like bane does.

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