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I'm a little concerned with the scaling of some of the starship DC's based off ship tier. Things like DC 10+3×tier seem fairly impossible once you hit a certain point. Early on, sure. DC 13,16, 19... meh. DC 70 though... for this like, "You, shoot him one more time."
That's not to count the DC 15+2×tier that is all over. Sure, 45 isn't terrible at cap but it's punishing you for upgrading your ship why?
Assume you have a stat mod of +6. Then class skill for another +3. Skill Focus is +3. 20 ranks because why not. If you have a racial bonus it's +2. Invest in skill versatility +2.
You get +32 as a base, putting you under a 50% success chance.
+34 worth racial, still under 50%.
+36 and just over 50% with versatility.
You can get computers that grant an additional +10 which helps (not sure you can apply that to captain checks). Nor does it allow you to make a DC 70 check.
Am I just missing something or is it bad to upgrade past a certain point?
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Yeah, this seems pretty odd. I think that, much like base Pathfinder, level 20 play isn't really optimized as much as compared to 1-10 (and a little after for "high level" play). Not too many groups hit 20 from level 1 in Pathfinder, or 1-20 rpgs in general, so that's to be expected. Even so...
Keep in mind that at level 1, you also have a roughly 50% chance on numerous actions. Attacking another starship is most of the time 50% or less (depending on armor), as you can get, at best, a +5 bonus on the role (capped to 18 at character creation outside of rolling for stats, +1 BAB or 1 rank in Piloting). Even attacking a small ship with basic Mk 1 Armor, that's still a baseline of 13 AC, meaning you're still missing 35% of the time - and that's assuming worse-case scenario for opponent and best-case scenario for you. Realistically, you're going to fall more in the 50% range (less dex on gunner and more armor/defenses on target).
Similarly, DC 17's, which are fairly common for starship combat early on, are usually also a coinflip for characters without things like skill focus.
The thing is, more than just skill focus and racials increase your skills.
Envoys (at 20th level) get 1d8+4 to their Expertise skills every time they use it if they have resolve, which not only includes diplomatic skills but also Engineering and Computers.
Mechanics receive a passive increase to Computers and Engineering, and can be aided either by their drone (albeit debatable... I've yet to see anything that says you can't aid somebody in starship combat but that doesn't mean it can happen).
Mystic can receive a similar bonus to a variety of different skills, including Piloting, Bluff, and Intimidate, to a point higher even than Mechanic's bonus (+7 at 20 to +6 for mechanic), and some Connection Powers interact with such skills.
Operatives can take 10 on any Skill Focus skills in combat, and gives free skill focus which can include on Engineering and Computers.
Solarions and Soldiers both are the only classes to receive full BAB, making them great as gunners, especially since starship armor doesn't seem to scale as well as BAB + stats.
Technomancers receives an increase to Computers similar to Mechanics.
Now insight bonus may not stack (although it may, it's a bit unclear RAW vs RAI), but these bonuses are still better than the ones you'd receive from Skill Focus.
Keep in mind, too, that a ship's systems beyond simply the computer (which is still a nice boost), as sensors can provide a +4 bonus to Science Officers, and certain frames and thrusters can improve Piloting.
Themes can help, too, even if just a little bit. The crew also interacts with one another to grant bonuses between roles using their crew actions.
That said, some of the scaling should probably be a bit smaller. I get the intent (thematically your ship is getting more complex, and mechanically in Pathfinder it was impossible to fail even hard skill checks at higher levels), but DC 70 right now is literally impossible to make, even with a +10 ability mod (I can get a +42 diplomacy on a level 20 Shirren mystic with 30 charisma - I'd still need to roll a 28 on a 20 sided die. If I was also a level 20 envoy, then I *might* be able to make it). I'm going to assume that the 10 + tier x 3 is a typo in that regards, considering.
The DC 45 tho seems fine - you're supposed to have some chance of failure even at high levels. It's just that the chance is supposed to be relatively smaller at high levels the more you specialize. I have a level 13 PC in my pathinder game right now who has something like a +42 bonus to Spellcraft checks. She can basically never not identify something. I think the design philosophy here was to avoid situations like that from happening as often.
Edit: It may also be that backup crew, as mentioned in the Larger Crews section, is meant to grant bonuses to their respective officer. See the Thaumtech Omenbringer, on page 307, that's receiving a +30 bonus on Intimidate checks with only 14 ranks. Has the same amount of ranks in Diplomacy, and is somehow getting a +5 bonus between the two from some mysterious force.
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I'm a little concerned with the scaling of some of the starship DC's based off ship tier. Things like DC 10+3×tier seem fairly impossible once you hit a certain point. Early on, sure. DC 13,16, 19... meh. DC 70 though... for this like, "You, shoot him one more time."
That's not to count the DC 15+2×tier that is all over. Sure, 45 isn't terrible at cap but it's punishing you for upgrading your ship why?
Assume you have a stat mod of +6. Then class skill for another +3. Skill Focus is +3. 20 ranks because why not. If you have a racial bonus it's +2. Invest in skill versatility +2.
You get +32 as a base, putting you under a 50% success chance.
+34 worth racial, still under 50%.
+36 and just over 50% with versatility.You can get computers that grant an additional +10 which helps (not sure you can apply that to captain checks). Nor does it allow you to make a DC 70 check.
Am I just missing something or is it bad to upgrade past a certain point?
How many tiers are there?
Considering double checking the math... DC 15+(2*Tier), it might not be that bad.
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How many tiers are there?
Considering double checking the math... DC 15+(2*Tier), it might not be that bad.
You're right, it's not that bad - it's worse! DC 55 at Tier 20 (15 + (2*20)). Even a +40 to a skill still has a 70% chance to fail.
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How many tiers are there?Considering double checking the math... DC 15+(2*Tier), it might not be that bad.
Ship tier is equal to your average party level, so 20 is the max. DC 55 is pretty crazy. Probably doable if you go in on a skill hard, but its the 3*tier that is the problem. Honestly I would consider lowering the speed starship tiers increase as a party levels as a gm, though I never expect to hit level 20 anyways. Hopefully low to mid levels it is all much more managable(if my group does stick to aps we will only have to worry about capping at out level 12 anyways).
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Further to this, the DCs of NPC ships vs PC ships doesn't seem to make any sense either:
- According to page 293, crew numbers are only relevant to NPC-controlled ships and PC's pilot their own ship without crew help.
- According to page 316, NPC's can aid another each other in combat, which massively boosts their skill capacities.
- According to page 327, all NPC crew members get amazing skill bonuses - by level 20, their good skills are +34, their best skills are +39.
+39 is identical to what a level 20 Operative with a +8 relevant ability modifier and a +2 racial bonus to the skill would have, making it pretty amazing.
Now, let's look at the DC's:
At the very lowest, level 20 DC's are 50, which are insanely hard to anyone but Operatives and Envoys, most are in the 55-60 range. This makes them fairly difficult for even Operatives and Envoys who call in computer support, and some are as high as 70, being impossible for even an Operative with aforementioned skill modifier who requested computer support for a +10 and rolled a nat 20 for a total of 69.
This makes for crazy difficult DC's for PC's, with PC's failing them more often as levels increase.
On the other hand, increasing crew sizes massively helps NPC's, which means that NPC ships become hypercompetent with level while PC ships become increasingly incompetent with level to the point of autofailing most checks unless they call in computer support (which is at most 2 checks per round for the entire ship) and autofailing some checks EVEN WITH computer support.
Moreover, all non-Operative non-Envoy characters quickly become useless at ship combat due to incredibly brutal scaling on skill DC's.
All in all, it seems like while low level ship combat is possible for PC's, NPC's utterly dominate and wipe the floor at high levels.
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On the other hand, increasing crew sizes massively helps NPC's, which means that NPC ships become hypercompetent with level while PC ships become increasingly incompetent with level to the point of autofailing most checks unless they call in computer support (which is at most 2 checks per round for the entire ship) and autofailing some checks EVEN WITH computer support.
Moreover, all non-Operative non-Envoy characters quickly become useless at ship combat due to incredibly brutal scaling on skill DC's.
All in all, it seems like while low level ship combat is possible for PC's, NPC's utterly dominate and wipe the floor at high levels.
Just speculating here, because I haven't looked at this closely: maybe there's some logic in saying there's a limit to what a handful of people can do, not matter how awesome they are? In other words, sometimes a ship with several hundred trained crew will be better at something than a ship with 5 space murder-hobos?
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That might be realistic, but if you're going to do that you shouldn't say that PC's get no benefit from having NPC crew.
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I may just houserule that NPC crew can help out etc. Maybe each officer grants the captain a +1 or a +2 to checks. Each engineer grants them a +1 or a +2 etc. Or perhaps even do it in blocks depending on crew sizes. For every 5 etc etc etc.
Either way this isn't just a problem at level 20. How well can you make a DC 40 at level 10? I know it's going to be easier than making DC 70, but it's still an issue.
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It also doesn't help that several skills...only the Operative gets easy access to skill boosts for it and the soldier gets NO innate skill boosts. Which means a soldier falls behind faster than any other class as he has no role he can actually innately contribute to (Even shooting allows you to use piloting instead of BAB)
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Just speculating here, because I haven't looked at this closely: maybe there's some logic in saying there's a limit to what a handful of people can do, not matter how awesome they are? In other words, sometimes a ship with several hundred trained crew will be better at something than a ship with 5 space murder-hobos?
While accurate to some extent that isn't entirely the case. One science officer isn't as good as 100 science officers. One pilot in a medium explorer craft that is tier 20 is just as good as one NPC pilot in a Jugg that is tier 20. No matter the ship you only ever get one pilot.
The same is true for a Captain that is giving orders and issuing commands. Each ship only gets 1. If your crew is 6 people I expect it to be -easier- to issue orders than if your crew is 500. Why it gets harder for you to issue orders as a Captain doesn't make a lot of sense to me. "Your ship is better now! Now it's harder for you to tell people what to do!" Pure logical fallacy.
A better ship should have better comm systems. Most of your crew is going to be sitting in the cockpit with you and so are easy to talk to. The exception to this is likely your engineer who is back working on the ship somewhere but still isn't hard to communicate with. I'm feeling like I have to had missed something somewhere.
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Yeah, no. More experienced soldiers and sailors take orders better than fresh recruits. 'Harder for the captain to inspire' is nonsense.
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Even if that were true... DC 70 to do so? As far as I can tell, that is actually impossible to make right now as a 20th level character, even with aid.
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Nonsense right back at you. The Starfinder Society is not a military organization.
What about the innumerable number of adventurers and types of stories that can be told using this system that don't involve the Starfinder Society whatsoever? The identical set of rules apply to them, too. Even long-term friends that have known each other for years and have adventured together from level 1 to 20.
Nah, it is literally, actually impossible for them to coordinate with one another.
Keep in mind that this is how these rules work no matter your AP or if it's your own setting or if it's your own adventure in the same setting or anything else. Unless you change the rules, this is how it works RAW.
I'll agree that a higher level captain should be able to do cooler things. If the rules don't support that, then something's messed up.Nonsense right back at you. The Starfinder Society is not a military organization.What about the innumerable number of adventurers and types of stories that can be told using this system that don't involve the Starfinder Society whatsoever? The identical set of rules apply to them, too. Even long-term friends that have known each other for years and have adventured together from level 1 to 20.
Nah, it is literally, actually impossible for them to coordinate with one another.
Keep in mind that this is how these rules work no matter your AP or if it's your own setting or if it's your own adventure in the same setting or anything else. Unless you change the rules, this is how it works RAW.
This is where the divide between class and ship role is kinda flawed, it's difficult to open up more options for different levels because the captain could be any class, I hope the issue will be addressed in future themes, archetypes or just extra rules in a ship book.
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Do note this line from "Actions" on page 322:
Class features and items affect crew actions only if specifically noted in the class feature or item.
These checks are a little harder than you expect. Expertise and Operative's Edge in particular are no help in starship combat.
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Do note this line from "Actions" on page 322:
Class features and items affect crew actions only if specifically noted in the class feature or item.These checks are a little harder than you expect. Expertise and Operative's Edge in particular are no help in starship combat.
That might make the Soldier feel less left out, but certainly doesn't mitigate the ultra-high DCs.
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Ya. I feel like something is missing though.
Let's look at the BMC Mauler. It's a tier 2 ship.
Gunnery is BaB (or piloting ranks), +Dex mod, +bonuses from captain and science officer, +any computer bonus you want to use.
Mauler has no captain or science officer. But has a static +12 gunnery.
So tier 2, say +2 from ranks. +3 Dex. Where is the other 7 coming from?
It has +11 computers but the ship is granting a +4 into that constantly. A +12 piloting, +1 of which is constant from the ship.
I have much confusion.
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Here's an option. After lvl 12,just hire a pilot and a NPC crew. Make the Pilot the first mate. You and the party still make all the decisions but the first mate is the one who makes them happen. If you have problems with mutiny or other nonsense, just push them out into vacuum and hire someone else.
Thinking back to starwars, Darth Vader was a renowned starship pilot, and excellent strategist, but he never piloted a large vessel. He delegated the Piloting to a lower ranking offical and handled more surgical type strikes.
Also, It seems to me like a good idea to have a standing skeleton crew to watch over the ship while in port. Wouldn't want a hand ful of goblins to fly off with it and crash into the Absolom station. That would be quite the Insurance hike.
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Yes, but if I start with a medium explorer at tier 1 and over 20 levels I only update and upgrade that ship so that I now have a tier 20 explorer why is the upgraded awesome ship harder to control? Why do the same people on board from the start now not want to litsen to me?
Why did my DC to fly backward go from 12 to 50?
Shouldn't that sort of be the opposite?
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Maybe I missed it, but is there some reason why your crew can't aid you, with each crew member adding +2 the the check?
At that point, you're easily able to make these checks with a large enough crew, you just have to pay for your crew members and keep their morale in check (Is that even a thing in this game?).
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Maybe I missed it, but is there some reason why your crew can't aid you, with each crew member adding +2 the the check?
At that point, you're easily able to make these checks with a large enough crew, you just have to pay for your crew members and keep their morale in check (Is that even a thing in this game?).
Aid another isn't allowed in starship combat. There's the encourage action for the captain, but you can only have one captain.
PCs are also not allowed to build ships of Huge size or larger (and purchasing ships or ship parts is not allowed either) without the GM's permission. There are no mechanics for hiring a crew, the rules heavily imply ("these usually require large crews and thus are normally reserved for NPC ships") you aren't allowed to, and only sample NPC ships have mechanics for non-lead crew, custom built ships and PC ships have no rules for how many crewmen are necessary or what they do.
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Maybe I missed it, but is there some reason why your crew can't aid you, with each crew member adding +2 the the check?
At that point, you're easily able to make these checks with a large enough crew, you just have to pay for your crew members and keep their morale in check (Is that even a thing in this game?).
This would also imply that you are required to build into a larger ship to do anything as you level. No being Serenity or the Millennium Falcon. You have to build big or you can't make your DC.
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D&D 4e made some similar mistakes, which resulted in the publication of some extra feats to allow characters at paragon tier and above to 'patch' their attack and defence bonuses. It's basically a math mistake though it was probably set up by wanting the same skill rolls to be relevant at 1st and 20th levels.
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Yes, but this is easy to see coming. +1 skill rank, +3 DC. An increase of 2 every level save levels with modifier increases,
I saw the problem the moment I read the formula.
Also the same rolls shouldn't always be relevant. I'm getting better and my ship is getting better, why is everything equally as hard. No progression feels like no progression.
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In the meantime, best way I can see around this is to give players multiple, weaker ships - like dogfighters or even their own fleet - as they get to much higher levels. Overall, Tier isn't quite equivalent to player level, and with players having enough ships up and about they should do just fine against harder starship threats. This may even be the intent, although I don't necessarily agree with said potential intent.
Either way, it should work as a minor patch.
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Yes, but this is easy to see coming. +1 skill rank, +3 DC. An increase of 2 every level save levels with modifier increases,
I saw the problem the moment I read the formula.
Sure. The question is how much feats, magic items or whatever will increase those values with level. D&D 4e got it wrong, it looks like Starfinder did too.
Also the same rolls shouldn't always be relevant. I'm getting better and my ship is getting better, why is everything equally as hard. No progression feels like no progression.
Exactly, and one of the major complaints aimed at 4e.
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Two skills, Skill Focus gives a +3 and skill versatility gives a +2 if you pick a class skill. Your theme might give a +1 to a relevant skill if you had said skill as a class skiing to start.
Don't recall any magical items save the Starstone Compass that effects starship anything.
Also tier is equivalent to character level so long as characters are equal level.
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Also tier is equivalent to character level so long as characters are equal level.
My point is that a spaceship of Tier 20 =/= power of a 20th level character. The tier to level comparison is only to determine when players reach new tiers and to create equivalent danger - it does not represent the same level of power. It's like comparing level to CR - sure, they're similar, but they don't function in the same way. Combat encounters are even built differently to accommodate.
As a result, I could very feasibly see 5 tier 15 starships for 5 level 20 players working out a bit better (still not great, but better). Starship challenge rules even support this concept.
It's not a good solution, but it may work as a band-aid in the meantime, until the convention is over and a dev can comment on this.
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The ship's computer can add to checks.
In general, an ICM adds a flat circumstance bonus to one or more starship combat checks, decided just before the check is attempted.
Now the best one listed is a Mk 10 Duonode giving +10/+10.
I thought there was a way for a mechanic to get their own node as well, but am having trouble finding it in the rules right now.
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We've taken the computer into account. With a maximized character build you still autofail 10+3×tier at tier and level 16 or higher. At 20+2×tier you need an 18 on the dice for tier and level 19-20.
And that is only on the possible 2 skills you can use the computer for, what about all the others?
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I really hope we can get some official word in here. Are these DCs meant for the captain to get at least 5 aid anothers from NPCs on the bridge?
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I really hope we can get some official word in here. Are these DCs meant for the captain to get at least 5 aid anothers from NPCs on the bridge?
As mentioned upthread, that would only help with larger ships, not high-tier ships of the size the players are apparently supposed to be flying.
Now that the weekend is over, I hope we see some official word on this. Let us know what we missed, whether it's just a typo in the formula,etc. Because right now, with this along with the Monster Math thread issues, I'm getting a not so good feeling about this. Games are complicated to be sure, but this is basic math which should have been readily apparent.
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Crew size does affect how many ship actions can be taken, so it does matter whether you have 1 or 2 NPC gunners (assuming that you have 2+ shipboard weapons).
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Yes, having more people is effective in some ways but very meaningless in others. I'll probably house rule store form of bonuses from multiple crew members assisting a single person, or on small shops with less computing power required sine form of upgradable static system bonus.
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Someone on Reddit recommended that the DCs could be fixed by being changed like so, with the CRB DCs on the left and the changes on the right.
10+2*tier -> 10+1.5*tier
15+2*tier -> 15+1.5*tier
20+2*tier -> 20+1.5*tier
10+3*tier -> 25+1.5*tier
These make way more sense and allows non-ultra-specialized skill monkeys to hit most of the DCs and completely remove the impossible DCs entirely once you factor in a decent on-board computer.
EDIT: Here's some maths that shows what the changes do: Original maths vs altered maths.