nowa's page

Since Gilfalas' thread is the one that took off, I'm going to add my question here and delete my thread:

Something seems seriously wrong with Starship scaling at larger sizes, and the stated tonnage and crew complements.

Page 294 has a STARSHIP SCALE table that covers the expected Size, Length, and Weight of Starfinder Starships. This table, when compared to real-world ships just doesn't make any sense.

- Taking "Gargantuan" for this example, and their max stats: 15,000ft long and 8,000 tons, and the largest example ship provided (Battleship) with a maximum crew of 300.
- Compare that against an Arleigh Burke class destroyer which has comparable tonnage (actually closer to 9,000) and the same crew of 300.
- Silhouette comparison (SF Battleship in Black, US Destroyer in Red): http://imgur.com/a/4AKiL

The Arleigh Burke has a length of 500ft which is 3% of the Starfinder Battleship, yet they weigh the same and have the same crew size?

Can someone explain this? Is this a typo in the book where the designer forgot to cube the tonnage?

Why such a small crew complement for such an enormous ship? Even with automation this doesn't make sense.

Looks like two zeroes need to be added to both tonnage and crew sizes for the high-end of ships.

Further to this, the DCs of NPC ships vs PC ships doesn't seem to make any sense either:

- According to page 293, crew numbers are only relevant to NPC-controlled ships and PC's pilot their own ship without crew help.
- According to page 316, NPC's can aid another each other in combat, which massively boosts their skill capacities.
- According to page 327, all NPC crew members get amazing skill bonuses - by level 20, their good skills are +34, their best skills are +39.
+39 is identical to what a level 20 Operative with a +8 relevant ability modifier and a +2 racial bonus to the skill would have, making it pretty amazing.

Now, let's look at the DC's:

At the very lowest, level 20 DC's are 50, which are insanely hard to anyone but Operatives and Envoys, most are in the 55-60 range. This makes them fairly difficult for even Operatives and Envoys who call in computer support, and some are as high as 70, being impossible for even an Operative with aforementioned skill modifier who requested computer support for a +10 and rolled a nat 20 for a total of 69.

This makes for crazy difficult DC's for PC's, with PC's failing them more often as levels increase.

On the other hand, increasing crew sizes massively helps NPC's, which means that NPC ships become hypercompetent with level while PC ships become increasingly incompetent with level to the point of autofailing most checks unless they call in computer support (which is at most 2 checks per round for the entire ship) and autofailing some checks EVEN WITH computer support.

Moreover, all non-Operative non-Envoy characters quickly become useless at ship combat due to incredibly brutal scaling on skill DC's.

All in all, it seems like while low level ship combat is possible for PC's, NPC's utterly dominate and wipe the floor at high levels.

Something seems seriously wrong with Starship scaling at larger sizes, and the stated tonnage and crew complements.

Page 294 has a STARSHIP SCALE table that covers the expected Size, Length, and Weight of Starfinder Starships. This table, when compared to real-world ships just doesn't make any sense.

- Taking "Gargantuan" for this example, and their max stats: 15,000ft long and 8,000 tons, and the largest example ship provided (Battleship) with a maximum crew of 300.
- Compare that against an Arleigh Burke class destroyer which has comparable tonnage (actually closer to 9,000) and the same crew of 300.
- Silhouette comparison (SF Battleship in Black, US Destroyer in Red): http://imgur.com/a/4AKiL

The Arleigh Burke has a length of 500ft which is 3% of the Starfinder Battleship, yet they weigh the same and have the same crew size?

Can someone explain this? Is this a typo in the book where the designer forgot to cube the tonnage?

Why such a small crew complement for such an enormous ship? Even with automation this doesn't make sense.

These are all really good questions/points that I haven't seen raised anywhere. Wanted to comment to make sure if doesn't fall off the page.

This type of RAW loophole-finding is ridiculous.

I would argue that these "RAW loopholes" are being found due to poorly written rules, and a very strange and arbitrary energy economy. And that's not even getting into the economics-breaking of having a god-particle UPB...

Moreover, manufacturing even in today's age matches up with most of the rules listed. It's far cheaper to buy a pre-made computer than individual parts.

People build their own computers precisely BECAUSE it's cheaper to get the parts and build it themselves.

While I can see your earlier point regarding "different batteries", I feel that Paizo specifically added their 10% sell rule to try to fix the batteries-costing-more-than-the-finished-product rule.

Its like they're adding arbitrary rule on top of arbitrary rule to try to hide how broken the economy is in the game.

Colette Brunel wrote:

Starship combat also involves the absolutely silly "optimal tactic" of having the pilot do absolutely nothing but grant passive bonuses, so that the party can use the Glide minor action to ramp up the ship's defenses. It is only marginally effective at the lower levels, but becomes gradually more obnoxious as Piloting ranks rise.

I would not be so quick to praise the starship combat.

Glide can only be done if you don't have a Pilot, which is a required role. For a ship with a crew of more than 1 Glide will/can never be used.

Not "if you don't have a Pilot" but rather as long as they don't do anything. That said, I'm sure it's in the "spirit" of what Paizo was intending.

Specifically, the CRB says that you can take a Minor Crew Action:
- regardless of your current role,
- only if no other action was performed for that role,
- once per round, and
- doesn't count as your action.

So, you can Glide as long as the pilot does nothing on their turn. With the RAW, it's tactically sound for the pilot to sleep through combat, and they'll add their Piloting skill to the ship's AC and TL each round.

Honestly the 10% sell back pretty much takes care of the issue. Spending 100 creds to make 44 for selling back gun and battery is not gaining money.

It's the 1 credit items with charged batteries that are the problem.

Well, the whole economy is the problem but specifically 1 credit charged items cause the infinite loop with the RAW.

IonutRO wrote:

Colette Brunel wrote:

IonutRO wrote:

Small and medium creatures use the same weapon size.

You are correct; it is armor that has to be resized.

That still does not prove doshko volume. One cubic foot is more generous than some think, and certain doshkos could very well fit in that range.

Doshko are not foldable. You cant stick a 4 ft long pole in a 1 ft cube without breaking the pole and folding it.

The tactical doshoko I believe is shown in a picture folded

The image on Pg. 188 shows one with an obvious joint/hinge but I haven't found a picture of it folded. That said, the other problem is that nothing actually has sizes/volume in the book, just bulk.

The CRB does mention weapon sizes can be customized for smaller races so I can absolutely see a hamster-with-a-carrot Ysoki walking around.

The posters that are dismissing the OP's question are displaying a lack of imagination considering Starfinder's setting. They don't have to be WW2-style fragmentation grenades.

Many other sci-fi series' make use of rechargeable/re-usable grenades (ex. Star Trek's stun grenade) so I'm not seeing why reusable Electricity (EMP) or Sonic (Stun? Knockback?) type grenades are out of the question.

What I could really use is an online map of Balentyne for PBEM play. I know some of you PBEM gamers must have set one up...? I'm just trying to get started with Maptools here, and any help will be most appreciated.

Based on the info I could find in the APs, I made a bit more detailed version of the local area: https://talingarde.obsidianportal.com/wikis/atlas

Click for larger. Hope it helps!